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04/23/2005 02:39:34 PM · #1 |
In the following thread on comments made to photos
graphicfunk makes the following observations
...........One problem arises out of threads examining the definition where a group unwisely adheres to a position. These threads invite a lot comments where many express their bias and often faulty logic.
Examples: in the Blue Moon challenge a thread was entertained where a a group decided to vote down any image with a Moon. In defiance to this absurd logic I gave them a moon and a fake one at that. Take that: you bigots.
In the Accidental Letters the interpretation fell into the naive narrow opinion that only one letter was allowed. I gave them a word, because nothing said that accidentals should not be grouped together. A challenge should open your mind to the degrees of freedom available otherwise the images will bore us all.
So is their value in having discussions on forthcoming challenges?
It seems to me that there is an inherent danger of ending up with a “committee consensus” on the rules, interpretation and acceptability for each challenge. This concerns me at this is has the potential of ending up as collective mob rule, with misguided bully tactics and “dismissal of ideas”
I may over egged this observation, to make a point; as I do have some major reservations on this issue
However
There have also been occasions when I have looked at the threads to test out an idea, which I feel may be a little of centre, or when I am feeling slightly insecure with one of my ideasâ€Â¦
I raise this last observation to show that I am not against the principle of the discussions, just concerned about the direction some of them takeâ€Â¦
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04/23/2005 03:04:14 PM · #2 |
I think there is an unfortunate - and all too human - tendency, when faced with an enormous number of entries to a challenge, to find some rationale for the dismissal of as many as possible from the start. The process of asssessment of an image deserves almost as much hard work as the creation of it, but of course there is no earthly way any of us are going to manage that on a weekly basis. The more reason to thank and to make effort to keep involved here those who do put serious effort and care into making their comments and assessments.
E |
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04/23/2005 03:09:01 PM · #3 |
I find discussing ideas or thoughts about a challenge quite helpful but I fully agree with yours and graphicfunk's idea that they occasionally will produce some largely undesireable side effects.
I found that I use the discussions to ask for permission (of sorts) to use an idea, so that I don't get pounced unwittingly in a challenge.
Sometimes there are implied suggestions ("don't blowout your highlights")in the challenge rules that people interpret as hardcore, no option, directives, which drives me nuts. So there, it's worth testing the waters, with a pre-entry discussion....for whatever it's worth.
I'd also like to add that graphicfunks entry to Accidental Letters was similar to mine, though a much, much better photo, both of which may have suffered a bit due to interpretation of the rules...based on comments recieved.
Message edited by author 2005-04-23 15:11:48.
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04/23/2005 03:53:33 PM · #4 |
Entertainment value is good, though sometimes I think the Semantics Police are going to cause my head to explode.
:-D |
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04/23/2005 04:11:23 PM · #5 |
I really wish the challenge theme were viewed more as suggestive and inspirational than as normative. And when people maintain that a photo of a 'tack' or a 'person' does not meet a challenge for 'tacks' or 'people' I think it's maddening.
I find it quite interesting to read the threads on current challenges because there will always be hints about what certain groups of people will be thinking. Occaisionally I do research based on the ideas presented and end up with photos that are both better than my normal 'run of the mill' photo and ones that score better. In this sense, discussing recently announced challenges helps me become a better photographer. At least most of the time.
Sometimes I get so upset at the literal interpretations that I just step way outside the box just to see what will happen. Frequently the photos suffer as a result, always the scores do. Then I get in a nasty mood and leave grouchy comments at the site in random places. Occasionally I'll get a low-scoring photo with lots of encouraging comments. This keeps me going.
In any case, reading the threads is like having a barometer you can see the dunderheads - I mean thunderheads - coming from further off.
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04/23/2005 04:18:04 PM · #6 |
Excellent post Stephen.
Originally posted by srbrubaker:
Then I get in a nasty mood and leave grouchy comments at the site in random places |
It's particularly annoying when the number fetishists conveniently overlook the fact that the Bridges challenge featured very few shots with more than one bridge. But people are habitually confident in their own judgments.
e |
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04/23/2005 04:40:05 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by e301:
It's particularly annoying when the number fetishists conveniently overlook the fact that the Bridges challenge featured very few shots with more than one bridge. But people are habitually confident in their own judgments.
e |
I always find that my own judgement is perfect ;)
It is not my problem if occasionally everyone else is wrong !!!!
I would also go along with Stephens observations. It is a crying shame when the posts become the normative and set the trend for the general assessment, however, we also must recognise that as a species we have a tendency for herding...
This has a capacity to reduce things to the lowest common denominator, which sometimes has a limiting affect on the acceptability of creativeness, originality and freedom of expressionâ€Â¦
Message edited by author 2005-04-23 16:41:12. |
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04/23/2005 04:43:59 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by e301:
Excellent post Stephen.
Originally posted by srbrubaker:
Then I get in a nasty mood and leave grouchy comments at the site in random places |
It's particularly annoying when the number fetishists conveniently overlook the fact that the Bridges challenge featured very few shots with more than one bridge. But people are habitually confident in their own judgments.
e |
Just to be annoying and pick a nit about this... =] There aren't that many multiple-bridge shots that look any good/are easy to fit into frame without really wide lenses, and that might be the reason there weren't that many plural-bridge entries.
[ducks and runs]
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04/23/2005 04:48:21 PM · #9 |
I've learned my lesson about discussing current challenges, I won't be doing it again. I will vote the way I please and comment the way I please and if the individual photographer doesn't find my comment useful he/she can choose not to check the "was helpful" box. The tack challenge was the first and last time I try to discuss my individual ideas/opinions on a challenge prior to voting, because I was tore apart in the Tack Scores thread.
I also do not plan to vote or comment based on the way I view a challenge. If there is anything I learned from these past two weeks is that we all look at a challenge differently, I have no right to vote down a submission because it was not done in the spirit in which I did my submission. I plan to take more time to look at the image before I vote or comment.
Plural, Singular, Out of the Box, In the Box.... we all look at a challenges differently, therefore there is no point for ME to discuss during/prior the current challenge since it can only either put me in a group of bigots like graphicfunk mentioned or get me flamed for my opinion. I do however plan to look into some threads where constructive help is offered, such as posting of examples or ideas... but then again I TRIED to start a thread about Jewlery Advertisment and was told to look in a magazine (just j/k john hehe) but seriously was only given minimal help. So my stand from now in is to look but not touch :)
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04/23/2005 04:57:32 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
So my stand from now in is to look but not touch :) |
Now I find it necessary to flame you for no longer voicing your opinions. Consider yourself flamed!
;-) |
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04/23/2005 05:01:53 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
I've learned my lesson about discussing current challenges, I won't be doing it again. I will vote the way I please and comment the way I please and if the individual photographer doesn't find my comment useful he/she can choose not to check the "was helpful" box. The tack challenge was the first and last time I try to discuss my individual ideas/opinions on a challenge prior to voting, because I was tore apart in the Tack Scores thread.
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DPCers can be impetuous and unthinking with their comments and I have made my share of those type(striving to do better!). But in general this is a helpful and compassionate group. Personalities will still conflict and feelings get bruised, just bear with it and don't take the poorly expressed comments as gospel. We all could use some improvement.
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04/23/2005 05:03:35 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
DPCers can be impetuous and unthinking with their comments and I have made my share of those type(striving to do better!). But in general this is a helpful and compassionate group. Personalities will still conflict and feelings get bruised, just bear with it and don't take the poorly expressed comments as gospel. We all could use some improvement. |
Ditto.
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04/23/2005 05:18:56 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by aerogurl:
So my stand from now in is to look but not touch :) |
Now I find it necessary to flame you for no longer voicing your opinions. Consider yourself flamed!
;-) |
My best advice, never listen to this guy, he's a fool and is continuously proving it! |
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04/23/2005 05:20:43 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by aerogurl:
So my stand from now in is to look but not touch :) |
Now I find it necessary to flame you for no longer voicing your opinions. Consider yourself flamed!
;-) |
My best advice, never listen to this guy, he's a fool and is continuously proving it! |
Do you have multiple personality disorder? :o) hehe
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04/23/2005 05:21:57 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by aerogurl:
So my stand from now in is to look but not touch :) |
Now I find it necessary to flame you for no longer voicing your opinions. Consider yourself flamed!
;-) |
My best advice, never listen to this guy, he's a fool and is continuously proving it! |
Do you have multiple personality disorder? :o) hehe |
Yes, unfortunately neither of them are very intelligent.
:-( |
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04/23/2005 05:22:21 PM · #16 |
to play a bit-o-devils advocate ..
i usually want my image to say what the challenge is
lines are lines
if it's tacks it has tacks
if it people its a picture of people
(& in my eyes a portrait does not say -people- to me .. )
kindof breaks down with a 'freestudy' which is why my image is doing poorly ..
& i like reading other peoples thoughts - esp. when they disagree ...
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04/23/2005 05:56:37 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by ralphnev:
i usually want my image to say what the challenge is
if it people its a picture of people
(& in my eyes a portrait does not say -people- to me .. )
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But do you try to read the rest of the description of a challenge?
In people it reads:
Formal and informal portraits, candids, group shots – just ensure that 1 or more people are the focus of your image
So there you go, maybe voting of some images when they are clearly meeting the challenge, and this kind of thing is what I have seen a few times before.
(Not acusing you of anything, just using it as an example)
Message edited by author 2005-04-23 17:57:52.
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04/23/2005 06:58:02 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Philos31:
Originally posted by ralphnev:
i usually want my image to say what the challenge is
if it people its a picture of people
(& in my eyes a portrait does not say -people- to me .. )
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But do you try to read the rest of the description of a challenge?
In people it reads:
Formal and informal portraits, candids, group shots – just ensure that 1 or more people are the focus of your image
So there you go, maybe voting of some images when they are clearly meeting the challenge, and this kind of thing is what I have seen a few times before.
(Not acusing you of anything, just using it as an example) |
in general i only dump an image in the <5 group if it a poor photo
(FOCUS DMN IT) to start with
and i did mark some portraits 7 or higher
BUT even rereading that description it still says more than one person to me
(you can have 1 person as a focus & have multiple people in an image)
& if they wanted portraits, individuals, or even 'characters' it would have been called such ...
that being said, my mind/concept/view of the challenge when i make an image is different than when i vote -
meeting the challenge is, afterall,
only a part of the virtual make up of the score -
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04/24/2005 04:27:14 AM · #19 |
I've only been keeping up with this site for a week or two, but I find the number of pointless comments to be disappointing. If you read the comments on images, such an incredibly high percentage of them are simple "nice work" or "good shot" messages. I can appreciate the desire to be polite and or really congratulate someone, but it gets to really saturate the posts to the point where you actually need to filter through to meaningful discussion.
I think the way the site encourages commenting only multiplies this problem. I definitely encourage meaningful comments/critique, don't get me wrong, but I think implying that the number of comments someone leaves somehow reflects on their contributions to the site causes people to waste time and bandwidth with fruitless comments just to increase their numbers.
The recent announcements about entry requirements to this new challenge on friday only for people with high comment ratio is, in my opinion, a bad idea. Now watch people rush out to leave comments on anything and everything to get into the challenge. |
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04/24/2005 05:04:36 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by rebelo:
I've only been keeping up with this site for a week or two, but I find the number of pointless comments to be disappointing. If you read the comments on images, such an incredibly high percentage of them are simple "nice work" or "good shot" messages. I can appreciate the desire to be polite and or really congratulate someone, but it gets to really saturate the posts to the point where you actually need to filter through to meaningful discussion. |
Part of the problem with this is that people who recieve comments that are considered constructive criticism don't/can't see the constructive part. My picture is the best one ever made! Period! And don't tell me otherwise... Another part of the problem is that when the small minded people that I've just outed make stupid negative comments (usually through pm's but sometimes in these forums) back at the original commentors, the original commentors take it too harshly. Please PM me back about how wrong I am about your image. It's only my humble opinion! If you didn't want it you wouldn't/shouldn't have posted it here! I figured this out a long time ago. I will still give my constructive commentary. I don't care if you don't appreciate it or don't like it. If, out of a hundred comments, I make one photographer better, it's worth it. I don't care if 25 people pm me back with negative remarks about my comments. In fact the more negative the comeback the better!
Small minded people amuse me!
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04/24/2005 05:09:23 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Small minded people amuse me! |
I've half a mind to PM you with a Joke......;) |
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04/24/2005 05:12:03 AM · #22 |
I have half a mind to read it when I get it! :-P
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04/24/2005 05:39:46 AM · #23 |
My view is as long as the challenges are one shot occurances, discussion during the submission phase is a good thing. It allows different points of view to be expressed and different ways of viewing the topic to be presented that many here would not think of on their own.
After the challenge is over, the lessons learned have nowhere to go if they are not within the persons normal shooting habits. Sure they can change their habits and incorporate what was learned, but if they didn't do well there is little incentive to do that. Discussion allows the photographer to learn and adjust the entry while it is still relevant. Since we gain certainty by doing repeatedly, anything that gives someone a push to look it over again can only be viewed as valuable.
Of course there are those that follow the crowd and read or participate in the discussions to be led, but, IMO, the focus should stay on the freedom for those who wish to discuss and learn to have a means to do so.
Should the challenges ever evolve into a multi-staged project event of some sort, this sort of discussion would be less valuable -- but until then it serves a vital and valuable service to those wishing to learn.
David
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04/24/2005 09:11:15 AM · #24 |
This is a subject that has been a sore spot to me for some time so I am thankful to Artan (and graphicfunk) for stiring discussion and thinking about such threads.
Coming up with an idea for an entry that meets the topic is part of the competition. And the topics are supposed to be fairly specific, they are not a general categories like you see on so many other contest sites (Landscape, Animals, B&W, etc.). Don't think of the topic as a suggestion, it's a requirement; and meeting it is not supposed to be real easy, it is supposed to be "challenging". If you get your idea from a thread you'll probably find several other images of the same thing when you get to voting. Interpreting the topic is each person's job to do for themself, and each voter's. So is balanceing that with satisfying your creative juices. The rules give some guidance when they say to keep the topic in "highest consideration" as you vote.
It may be desirable to curb the current challenges threads but it would be impossible to eliminate them. We should always remember that whatever is said in them does not hold sway as strongly as the challenge details, as the posts are just individual's opinions.
Sometimes I feel that people are argueing based on an image they have already submitted, trying to help it by making sure others will think it is a valid interpretation.
If you are asking the voters to be tolerant of your "outside the box" creativity you shouldn't need to discuss topic interpretations, or find ideas, in forum threads.
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04/24/2005 11:51:14 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by rebelo:
I've only been keeping up with this site for a week or two, but I find the number of pointless comments to be disappointing. If you read the comments on images, such an incredibly high percentage of them are simple "nice work" or "good shot" messages. I can appreciate the desire to be polite and or really congratulate someone, but it gets to really saturate the posts to the point where you actually need to filter through to meaningful discussion. |
I agree with you! I have my first submission in the RSP challenge and it's rating about 5. I'm fine with that, I'm not a photographer and my goal is to finish half way between the best and the worst pictures.
What I'm really interested in, is to learn something from the challenge and comments, so I can develop and improve my "artistic" side.
That's why I'm disappointed with the comments: my picture has 6 comments right now; 5 of them are of the kind "nice pic", "I like this", "I don't like that" and I have only one really useful comment which says "I think you took the picture in this way, and I think it would have been better in this other way". Thanks to the person who did this comment, next time I'll try 2 ways of taking the picture, I'll see the difference and I'll have the chance of choosing between the two. That's why I'm partecipating in the challenge!
Anyway I know it's difficult to make "useful" comments and I appreciate also the other comments I got, at least I'm happy that someone was impressed by my picture enough to spend some time to leave a comment.
But I'd love to get only negative feedback, pointing out what's wrong with my picture, rather than having "nice work" comments... from what I read in this thread, there are a lot of people who get angry when their work is criticized, so what about a personal preferences option that would allow people to see only the positive (or negative, or both) comments on their photos?
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