Shooting Sports for Profit - DPChallenge Forums

04/19/2005 01:36:17 PM · #1

I am wondering if anyone is shooting weekend sports tournaments to earn a living, or a side income.
I have a few questions.

How can you shoot images and then have the right to sell them without a release? I am thinking about getting into this, but am concerned about people coming after me for not having the right to sell the image.
I see that lots of people do it, but am not sure how i can post images of kids and people on the internet and sell prints with no individual agreement with each person i photographed.

I realize that it is mostly the people IN the picture who purchased the print, but what if other people want to buy the print. Is that ok???

DanSig

04/19/2005 01:52:01 PM · #2

you can ONLY take pictures of the sporting event, NOT the audience, unless it is a group photo +4 persons, then you do not need a model relese form, if you take a picture of a single or 2 persons, then you WILL need them to sign a model relese form.

the same goes for pictures where there is one person in the foreground and a group in the background, that is not considered a group photo.

hope this helps.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/19/2005 01:58:05 PM · #3

So why is there a special rule for sporting events.

I know that if i take an image of someone i can use it for my own use.
That same image though, i cannot make a profit from, like selling it as stock photography.

HOWEVER... i CAN sell prints of that image to people why?

and why is there a different between people at the event and the people playing in the event.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

04/19/2005 01:59:00 PM · #4

My $.02, print and sell on site and only sell on site. People will pay $25 for an 8x10 right after the game, but if they need to go home, look for it on a web page, think about it and pay via credit card... they won't do it.
From our experience, it wasn't worth the time to post all the images on the web after the fact.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

04/19/2005 02:04:58 PM · #5

If you are shooting for the purpose of selling the prints (not photojournalism) you need to have an agreement with the venue where the event is being held. I don't know where the audience issue with 2 or 4 people came from.. .I have never heard of that. If you shoot someone who is not participating in the event, you may not sell images of them without their consent. You can't sell any image with a recognizeable person in it without their permission. This is not a 'public' venue. It's private and the people attending have paid admission. If you are not in the US, the rules could be different I suppose...

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

04/19/2005 02:07:53 PM · #6

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

yeah, That sounds helpful. Having an agreement with the event would make sense.

muckpond

Nikon D200

04/19/2005 02:10:07 PM · #7

this is a good discussion, and one i've been having in my head.

on a lot of tickets at larger sports venues there is a disclaimer that says something along the lines of "if you use this ticket, you agree that your image can be used for promotional purposes." (i wish i had a good, real-world example of that.)

would that just cover images that are used for the purposes of promoting the team/venue?

04/19/2005 03:52:54 PM · #8

Originally posted by muckpond:

I think the disclaimer on the back of tickets is so that you can't sue the team/venue if they happen to put your image on the jumbotron when you're picking your nose.

How you can use/sell images of a sports event is often governed by how you got access to the event. If you got in free and were allowed to go to the sidelines (where ticket buyers can't) because you work for a media outlet, then your images are controled by whatever arrangement you have with your employer; and by whatever arrangement your employer has with the team/venue. Same goes if you are working for an event photography company.

Permission from the team/venue/league is pretty easy to get for events not normally covered by major media, such as HS sports, and even some of the lesser college sports, if you make it clear that you are intending to sell only to players & parents and not for commercial purposes such as advertising, etc. When you are operating at the low levels of sports, you will be met with an attitude of "we're happy to have you"; but if another photographer/company has an agreement you may be asked to leave, or worse.

I think the best source of info can be talking to other photographers at the event, the ones you are shooting right along with. You can disarm an event photographer who has an exclusive agreement by assuring them that you are not going to compete, and asking if they need any additional shooters. Newspaper photogs usually don't bother you unless you get in their way. You are less of a threat to them, and they are flattered if you ask questions about equipment, techniques, etc.

Their are some web-based outfits that will help you get assignments and sell your photos, or you can set up your own. It seems like a field a lot of people want to pursue, so it may be tuff to make any real money. It's part of the digital revolution that every soccer mom with a P&S thinks a snap of her boy should be on the cover of SI.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/19/2005 04:10:03 PM · #9

So how would one do little league events held on county propery? Technically there is no admission and I think a lot of the parents wouldn't mind paying 20-40$ for a decent photo of their kid at bat/fielding

I was considering trying to do that but then there's the issue of how do you alleviate the fear of the parents that I'm not a child molester with a lens bigger than their kid, and how do you print on-site. Rig up a car with a photo printer and a laptop?

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

04/19/2005 04:17:49 PM · #10

Originally posted by psychephylax:

how do you alleviate the fear of the parents that I'm not a child molester

DON'T use your username as your business or professional name. I don't know what it means, but as a parent, I would be afraid. ;-)

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/19/2005 05:10:54 PM · #11

Originally posted by psychephylax:

Laptop, canon i80 or i90 printer and plug them into your car. A table, an EZ up and lighting helps.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

04/19/2005 05:48:53 PM · #12

I quite agree that the majority of sales would happen at the event. People are lazy, get distracted, procrastinate.. the impulse buying is a strong motivation especially at something like that.

I am nots sure i would have the setup right away to do prints at the event. It would take a little bit of investment.

I was at a cheerleading event where there was an event photographer there. They had a couple photographers and then a base where they had 4 screens for people top preview and order photo's, then they went to the printer guy with their orders and got them printed.... that was a pretty nice setup.

I think having a vest or something (especially with your photography name on it) would make it most 'professional' looking .. and make it look like you were supposed to be there.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

04/19/2005 06:02:59 PM · #13

I completely agree with coolhar.

I could talk about all manner of aspects of event shooting all day, but following on from coolhar's last paragraph I will say this:

Build your reputation on the very highest quality, everything else will follow.

04/19/2005 06:12:48 PM · #14

How are people doing some post-processing to get the photos looking great since it is time consuming? I'm not sure how people are spending most of the time shootin the event...Then having enough time to post-process, present to potential sellers in a clean way and print before you get the buyers leaving the field.

I'm guessing a decent set-up would be a PC/Mac in a car/truck with a dedicated editor who post processes while someone is shooting and a printer person who'd print the edited images on a Photo Printer if the parents request it.

I've read an article on something like this in Rangefinder but they literally had a whole lab on wheels that went to location with way mor ethan 1 person doing this.

What are people's logistics?

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

04/19/2005 06:15:18 PM · #15

Originally posted by psychephylax:

That's sounds like a favorable place to start. My advice would be to make as least some overtures to the league's commissioner to let them know what you are going to be doing. Some times parents can be real touchy about people taking pictures of their kids. If someone goes to the commissioner to complain, you are a lot better off if it's not the first time he has heard about your shooting. And a few free samples scattered around might be a very good promotion. Many coaches have a kid of their own playing for their team.

If you can get set up to sell at the scene (a helper is almost mandatory) you are going to sell more, but make provision for the other sales too, online or by giving out business cards.

If you have choices, go to the high income neighborhoods to shoot.

gwphoto

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/19/2005 06:15:46 PM · #16

The people that I know that do that do NO post processing. They shoot jpg and print with a dye sub printer. Check out Denny Mfg. They have everything you will need. go to //www.dennyelectra.com

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

04/19/2005 06:15:49 PM · #17

VV Shameless plug of forum VV

04/19/2005 06:22:32 PM · #18

Originally posted by louddog:

Laptop, canon i80 or i90 printer and plug them into your car. A table, an EZ up and lighting helps.

louddog, what's an EZ up? I'm not familiar with that term.

04/19/2005 06:28:33 PM · #19

I think it's a tent enclosure

04/19/2005 06:35:18 PM · #20

Originally posted by gwphoto:

The people that I know that do that do NO post processing.

I've seen that too. And I've seen some guys that "batch" process. But I can't say as I thought the photo quality was as good as I'd like it to be if I'm attaching my name to it. With good equipment and experience you can get to where you don't need much post-processing at all, but to set up your workflow without the possibility of some minor corrections would, at least on some occasions, lock you in to poor quality product.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

04/19/2005 06:40:34 PM · #21

How about doing something like this...

Instead of doing final prints on site, print out 4x6 or 5x7 proofs out of the camera with maybe a URL to order 8x10's and larger for $

Kind of whetting the appetite for a good post-processed photo with a nice capture...I think that may keep the interest long enough for you to post-process and finalize the photo before the final print?

Marjo

Canon EOS-7D

04/19/2005 06:45:54 PM · #22

Good thread. I've been wanting to try sporting events. The photographers around here though do it up pretty nice. Big, big printers on site and a crew of about 20 or so. Like someone said, processors, photographers, cashier, etc.
I do events on a small scale and print out 4 by 6's unedited. Offer larger sizes on order.

There's more in my port.

Message edited by author 2005-04-19 18:46:40.

04/19/2005 09:07:13 PM · #23

Originally posted by psychephylax:

If you do that I'd reccommend just the 4x6, and not the 5x7. And clearly mark them as proofs. People recognize that term as an unfinished photograph.