Is it fair to have help? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/14/2005 10:48:28 PM · #76

1. I've thought many times it would be great to have some sort of communication with another DPC member that is not entering the particular challenge that I am entering and ask for their advice on which photo to enter or what processing they would recommend. I do not think this is unfair and would very much like to participate in something like this from time to time.

2. The reason I started this thread... I'm just gonna say it... I have a problem with something I saw here recently. I do not think it is fair for someone's mother/sister/aunt/etc to discuss prior to the shoot ideas for the image, accompany them to a shoot, help set up the shoot, help shoot the photo, and I am unsure if they helped with processing. I find this not to be one persons image but two. This person should be DQ'ed because IMO this is not a team effort. I live VERY close to Setzler and not once have I asked him to help me, even though he is an awesome photographer. We have discussed going shooting together, but not for challenges. Does anyone agree with me here?

Artan

Canon Digital IXUS v3

04/14/2005 11:21:24 PM · #77

When I used to play rugby, I was part of a team, and we had a coach on the sidelines giving instructions, but it was still me that had to decide when to pass the ball when to run, and when to duck for cover.

The others offerd advice and support, but I made the final decision

ralph

Nikon Z9

04/14/2005 11:31:10 PM · #78

Originally posted by coolhar:

Why is it stupid to want to make the playing field as level as we can? Please explain, as I really can't see what's so stupid about that desire.

i suggest you read:
Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut (1961)
nice little short story

Message edited by author 2005-04-14 23:33:48.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/15/2005 04:19:34 AM · #79

Originally posted by coolhar:

Do you think it would be cheating to take several shots of old factories for the Abandoned Buildings challenge, edit them, and then take a few to your photography class and ask the instructor and fellow students which one was the best shot and how you could improve it, go home and incorporate those suggestions into your edit (maybe some major changes like a different crop, or conversion to b&w) and then upload the shot as an entry into the challenge?

I think it would be an intelligent thing to do, personally. Every picture I take is the sum of all of the advice and discussions and learning I've had.

timmi

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/15/2005 04:25:40 AM · #80

Originally posted by aerogurl:

OK, you know what? I am one of those mothers/sisters/aunts/... call me whatever you wish, that helps my son with photography. He is 13 and does quite well on this site. We actually go out and photograph together using the same camera. We share ideas, opinions, we have a great time learning together. IS THAT SO WRONG??? Excuse me, but who are you to say it is not fair? Why? He is learning, I am learning. How is that cheating? I edit my own photos, he edits his - with my advice. Again how is that cheating? Should our photos be DQed just because you cannot get help from someone else on your photos?

People, RELAX! This site is a leaning tool. We are not competing for golden trophies here. We compete because we want to learn from others.

The same goes for the idea that no photographer should be allowed to post their images elsewhere during challenge they participate in. There is no copyright law on Earth that can enforce that. And you would see mass exodus from DPC if you were to enforce that. You cannot take photographer's rights to use their images away just because of some virtual challenges for virtual ribbons. It doesn't work that way.

I am not affraid to say this. I post my images here in challenges and on other sites as well. That is my right. In no way I feel I am cheating. So what if someone sees it. Do you think they will hurry up back on DPC to lower my score because of that?

Where the heck this ends? Rules, upon rules, that inhibit learning. I believe that the DPC rules as they are, are pretty good. But they should not turn into policing!

And one more thing. Just because you didn't ask Setzler for help doesn't make you "oh so honest"... I think it is very silly not to ask for help, especially from such a giant genius as mr. Setzler. That is your choice. Do not expect others to make the same mistake.

This is making me so mad! Enough! I am done.

blemt

Nikon D70

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Nikon

04/15/2005 06:58:10 AM · #81

Originally posted by aerogurl:

I live VERY close to Setzler and not once have I asked him to help me, even though he is an awesome photographer. We have discussed going shooting together, but not for challenges. Does anyone agree with me here?

Nope. Sorry. :) I've gone shooting for lots of challenges with other photographers on DPC. It's fun, and I learn a bunch when I go out. I can promise you that at least some of the shots in Free Study are going to be from the DC GTG. So should all 18 photographers be DQ'd if they submit those shots? Afterall, they talked to other photographers, reworked shots based on that input, and possibly improved the shot.

I've gone shooting with John too, and used those shots in challenges. He's used shots from GTG in challenges. For the record, only one of those shots resulted in a ribbon. On that same shoot, the photographer I went with also ribboned. We both discussed the shots we got- offered cropping suggestions, and editing suggestions. That moment really represents what the site is supposed to be about. It's friends getting together, shooting images, learning from eachother, and having fun.

I can understand why you might be frusterated. I would frankly suggest that you try out shooting with other DPCers for challenges. Try out asking for input. I think it makes you a stronger photographer when you operate in a group, and not in a vacuum.

Not to mention, it's just more fun. :) And at any point in time, if you feel someone is cheating, use the DQ request, report post feature, or Contact Us feature to let SC know. That's what they are there for.

Clara

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

04/15/2005 07:43:57 AM · #82

Originally posted by timmi:

ok.... First off, I am not trying to be *O So Honest*, and I am not saying it is not fair for you to do whatever you want to do, if you can live with it, then great for you. For me, PERSONALLY, this is not a choice I would make. Going on a GTG with other DPCers is something quite different than me taking my Sister (lets just say she is a pro) out with me to show me how to shoot. At what point does it stop becoming my image and become hers or ours? Frankly, I don't need Setzler. I got into photography because I like photograhy. I didn't get into this to win a bunch of fake ribbons. I've spoken with John on the phone a few times and he gave me pointers on getting published in the local paper and within a month I had a full page, color, 5 photo spread on the front page of the family section. I DID IT MYSELF and it felt GREAT. If he had went out with me and told me what to shoot, what was the best lighting, where to stand, how to hold my camera, and how to blow my nose, then its HIS work also. I see nothing wrong with sharing your work with others after you have taken the image for advice on editing or which photo to enter, but the work MUST BE YOUR OWN. Did VanGogh have someone holding his hand, what about Michangelo? Do you think someone stood and told him step by step how to paint the Sistine Chapel? I belong to this site because it is a VIRTUAL learning tool, as is any book or website. But when you are taking your ribbon winning, years of experience family member, published photographer, etc.. on a shoot with you and have them show you *hands on* how to do it, its just NOT FAIR, and I will go as far as to say if you are entering it in a compeition then Yes, it is cheating. I think the word is MEMBER, not MEMBERS. And this is what the rules of the site say: "Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand."

And I am not saying anything you are doing is wrong. I have 2 14 year olds and if they expressed an interest in this I would help them. But when it came to entering a challenge then they would be on their own, because its THEIR art, not mine. I never said that to help your child or to seek help from others is cheating. Never did I say that. I said was it fair?, this is a moral question, if you think its fair, then that is YOU. I personally do not think it is.

I take this rather personally because I am an artist also. I draw, oil paint, work with pastel and charcoal, and dabble in a little photography here and there. And when I am old and grey (which I might already be if not for a bottle of dye) I can look back on my life and say.... It was ME. I created that. I did that, MYSELF. If you can also, then bully for you.

and I don't know why everyone has an attitude, its just words guys, we aren't Nazi's.. debating a subject is good, I loved debate class in college... chill.. no one need blow a gasket :)

Message edited by author 2005-04-15 08:00:26.

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

04/15/2005 09:14:05 AM · #83

Originally posted by aerogurl:

At what point does it stop becoming my image and become hers or ours?

At the point your sister takes the camera from your hands, and points it at something, and clicks the shutter button.

There it is for you, in black and white.

Originally posted by aerogurl:

Did VanGogh have someone holding his hand, what about Michangelo? Do you think someone stood and told him step by step how to paint the Sistine Chapel?

Actually.. VanGogh, Michealangelo, Rapheal, David, Monet.. most of the old masters spent years and *years* in art enclaves learning and practicing their craft from teachers, and being "graded" and often times actually forced into painting the way the teachers wanted them to. Sure, they broke off and eventually made a name doing their own thing (after they were dead).. but that didn't stop them from getting all kinds of help and input. As for the Sistine Chapel.. uh.. That was painted by an entire *group* of people, under Michelangelo's direction.. so...

Message edited by author 2005-04-15 09:40:03.

Apple iPhone

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Nikon

04/15/2005 09:58:23 AM · #84

Originally posted by aerogurl:

Does anyone agree with me here?

No, I do not agree with you

asitv

Canon EOS-80D

Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM | C

04/15/2005 10:26:08 AM · #85

I have been following this discussion from the start and think a lot of opinions have come out. Not to say that anyone of them is completely right or wrong I would like to add the following:

-- I see that (some) people here at DPC are concerned about others entering photos in challenges that they have shared ideas with and/or taken help on from others while shooting.
-- This while acceptable to some is not to the others... Well friends, everyone has a right to make their opinion so donâ��t go biting each other. ( I say this as there are some very strong comments made in this thread)
-- It may have struck to someone that photographers whose ratings have been high and have won a few ribbons naturally tend to attract more visitors / buyers on their portfolios of prints for sale. Maybe this has ticked off some people and the fact that however hard they try by themselves their ratings are not improving.

Letâ��s not forget here that some participants here have photography not just as a passion or hobby but as a full time job. Others just seem to have a better 'sense of photography' and see things in a more creative way.

None of this as said by someone before is policable. So letâ��s just learn for learning sake and stop thinking what is right or wrong. In my last three years here I have not participated in many challenges but have improved a ton...

I think there is no picture that is right or wrong. Help or no help if a picture satisfies you and you can avoid the problems in this picture while shooting the next picture you take, I think you have made your way a step closer to successâ�¦.

In my humble opinion I think if this is so much of an issue to one's self... just go by your own views and see how 'You' achieved. On the other hand if you still like some pictures that you think are great try to know more about them and try those techniques.

Good luck!!

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/15/2005 10:51:13 AM · #86

While we are at it, I don't think it so terrible if you got someone else to do the post-processing on an image either ( I know the rules say you currently can't do this )

Many highly regarded photographers didn't make their own prints, they let someone else do all that final darkroom stuff for them, making decisions on density, contrast and so on.

The post processing is the straight analogy of the printmaking step.

Another random thought experiment, if I was shooting a landscape with an assistant there, and saw a coke can - is it more or less ethical to get them to move the coke can in real life, or have them run the healing brush over the final shot ?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/15/2005 10:59:24 AM · #87

Just to take it to extremes, here's another "thought experiment"; suppose a quadrapelegic decides s/he wants to take up photography? In DPC, would s/he be disqualified from challenges? Would the DQ depend on whether the person's "assistant" knew more or less about photography and photoshop than the putative shooter?

Does it matter whether this quadripelegic became unable to function before or after s/he became an accomplished photographer?

This may sound silly, but it gets to the core of what we're discussing here.

Robt.

04/15/2005 11:04:25 AM · #88

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by aerogurl:
At what point does it stop becoming my image and become hers or ours?

At the point your sister takes the camera from your hands, and points it at something, and clicks the shutter button.

There it is for you, in black and white.

I think there is more to creating an image that clicking a shutter button. Maybe I should get my dog an account here, set up the shot for him and have him hit the shutter...

I am aware that the masters learned in class from other masters. That is the process of Learning. I am speaking about Creating. No one stood by and pointed out to Da Vinci that the Mona Lisa doesnt have any eyebrows, that was his creation. Most of the masters were loners, some even hermits who spoke through their work, it was their child. There was no one in the room with them mixing paint or pointing out flaws in their work. I am also aware that other hands painted the Sistine Chapel, but Michangelo created it, it was his creation and his alone. Maybe that wasnt the best of examples, but I hope you know what I meant. I have taken many years of art history and have studied under people I consider living masters. I have sat through a discussion very similar to this in class. Art is about Individual Expression. I see and understand what everyone is saying here, I understand fully that we must all progress from one stage of learning to another via help from teachers or through trial and error... I just see a line here. I see two kinds of people. People who consider Photography a hobby or a job and people like me, who consider it a form of art or individual expresion.

I would never allow someone to take my tripod & camera and set it up at a shoot, to adjust the settings, to adjust the lighting, and then tell me to come press the shutter. How in the *bleep* is that MY image?? I can not possibly be the only one who sees it this way, if I am then this is the wrong site for me.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

04/15/2005 11:07:00 AM · #89

Originally posted by aerogurl:

I would never allow someone to take my tripod & camera and set it up at a shoot, to adjust the settings, to adjust the lighting, and then tell me to come press the shutter. How in the *bleep* is that MY image?? I can not possibly be the only one who sees it this way, if I am then this is the wrong site for me.

I didn't read anyone that said that they thought this was right either.
You started asking about Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.., not setting everything up for you and having you click the shutter.

Message edited by author 2005-04-15 11:08:12.

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

04/15/2005 11:08:19 AM · #90

Originally posted by aerogurl:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by aerogurl:
At what point does it stop becoming my image and become hers or ours?

At the point your sister takes the camera from your hands, and points it at something, and clicks the shutter button.

There it is for you, in black and white.

I think there is more to creating an image that clicking a shutter button. Maybe I should get my dog an account here, set up the shot for him and have him hit the shutter...

I am aware that the masters learned in class from other masters. That is the process of Learning. I am speaking about Creating. No one stood by and pointed out to Da Vinci that the Mona Lisa doesnt have any eyebrows, that was his creation. Most of the masters were loners, some even hermits who spoke through their work, it was their child. There was no one in the room with them mixing paint or pointing out flaws in their work. I am also aware that other hands painted the Sistine Chapel, but Michangelo created it, it was his creation and his alone. Maybe that wasnt the best of examples, but I hope you know what I meant. I have taken many years of art history and have studied under people I consider living masters. I have sat through a discussion very similar to this in class. Art is about Individual Expression. I see and understand what everyone is saying here, I understand fully that we must all progress from one stage of learning to another via help from teachers or through trial and error... I just see a line here. I see two kinds of people. People who consider Photography a hobby or a job and people like me, who consider it a form of art or individual expresion.

I would never allow someone to take my tripod & camera and set it up at a shoot, to adjust the settings, to adjust the lighting, and then tell me to come press the shutter. How in the *bleep* is that MY image?? I can not possibly be the only one who sees it this way, if I am then this is the wrong site for me.

So give me one example of where anyone on this site is getting anyone they shoot with for challenges to do what you're claiming in that last paragraph they are doing... and the key is "take my tripod & camera and set it up at a shoot and adjust the settings blah blah".. that's what I said already with "The line is when someone (your sister as the example), takes your camera, points it, and presses the shutter. I should have left off the "presses the shutter" bit so as not to confuse you that the first two were nonexistent.
*rolls eyes*

Anyway, I'm done here. This is like arguing religion or politics.. it's a dead-end street. You believe something, that's great.. but please, let it go and try and maintain that moral integrity for *yourself* alright? Let the rest of us decide where we want to draw our own lines.

Message edited by author 2005-04-15 11:10:31.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/15/2005 11:16:44 AM · #91

Originally posted by Artyste:

Anyway, I'm done here. This is like arguing religion or politics.. it's a dead-end street. You believe something, that's great.. but please, let it go and try and maintain that moral integrity for *yourself* alright? Let the rest of us decide where we want to draw our own lines.

Glen, I never once said you can not decide for yourself where to draw "your" line. I am just stating where I am drawing mine. I have answered about 5-6 private messages and given links to examples of work on this site that I think was a team effort. I know the people I gave the links to and do not intend to "out" anyone in this forum. This is just my opinion. We all have one :) And I am so not upset about this.. I just started this thread to see where everyone stood. I don't want anyone upset with me :o)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/15/2005 11:16:53 AM · #92

Originally posted by aerogurl:

The problem is you've gone to an extreme here, aerogurl; I'm not aware that anyone has suggested doing what you've just damned. The physical assistance that's been described here has been along the lines of having someone to help with the manual labor of setting up a shot, not the artistic vision that goes into it. And you seem to be condemning out of hand any seeking of advice on how to accomplish a vision that is already fully formed in the artist's head. That's the extreme that people are reacting negatively to.

Now, for YOU (or for me, for that matter) the idea of, say, going to Scalvert and saying "got any great ideas you haven't used you'd be willing to share, I'm drawing a blank.." is unthinkable. We don't work that way. But would I condemn some other, less-experienced shooter for taking this approach? hell no, as long as s/he actually did the shot themselves.

And even less would I condemn someone who, say, posted in a forum "I'm trying to accomplish a razzle-dazzle-jib-bobbity with my lighting for my "Thingamambob Revisited" entry, and I'm having trouble. Anyone out here got any advice for me on how I can do this? No matter what I try, the key light keeps freezling the doofus and ruining the shot."

Robt.

04/15/2005 11:20:39 AM · #93

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by aerogurl:

I would never allow someone to take my tripod & camera and set it up at a shoot, to adjust the settings, to adjust the lighting, and then tell me to come press the shutter. How in the *bleep* is that MY image?? I can not possibly be the only one who sees it this way, if I am then this is the wrong site for me.

I didn't read anyone that said that they thought this was right either.
You started asking about Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.., not setting everything up for you and having you click the shutter.

Hi Gordon :) I was just trying to answer Glen's comment with a bare facts statement. He said it became someone elses image when they took my camera away and pressed the shutter themselves. I just believe that there is more to my work that the press of a button.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/15/2005 11:27:40 AM · #94

Originally posted by bear_music:

Good point. I agree that I went to an extreme, just for discussion sake. I don't see anyone getting that much help, but if you allow an inch, people will take a mile sooner or later. I also dont believe in policing the issue. I'm somewhere in the middle I guess. and I agree with you about the advice part. I would like to have a forum or another site to go to and discuss work prior to entering it just to get opinions or editing help. Because I am still a novice at this.. I still need help too. But to me, I said it in a prior post, this post was about the physical act of creating the image, of taking the image. I personally do not think its right to have someone accompany you on the shoot and tell you how to do everything and then you just press the button. I agree with most of the other stuff said.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

04/15/2005 12:00:43 PM · #95

I'd say get all the help you can get. So what, if you actually learn something? All the more power to you. If a good photo comes out of it too, hey, what else can we ask for?

To assign ownership to a photo is a comparatively small matter, is it not? Deciding what's whose determines whose name appears next to it.

joebok

Fujifilm X100F

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED

04/15/2005 12:15:49 PM · #96

I think zeuszen has got it right. We vote anonymously on anonymous pictures. If a picture wins a DPC Challenge, the credit is given to the poster. If, in fact, the work was not that of the poster it doesn't change the fact that the picture was probably a pretty good one. The problem is that the credit may have been given to the wrong person. If the wrong person was given credit, then they are the ones "robbed" and so they should make a complaint if necessary - but that's between them, the poster, and the SC.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/15/2005 01:14:11 PM · #97

Fantastic response Joebok... That is a wonderful perspective to view this discussion from. I would assume that all of us would feel less that satisfied knowing that the winning shot was not as a result of own efforts.

Ray

RedOak

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/15/2005 01:48:38 PM · #98

well basically, DPC is for learning. If there are people with the chance of having professional photographers around them, all the better, they will learn faster and probably get better feedback from here.

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saracat

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

04/15/2005 02:09:21 PM · #99

Being new here, I think I may have a little different perspective on this whole 'is it fair to have help?' thing.

With respect to getting input from others before posting, or to posting on other sites to get reactions from others - how are either one of these thigs different from entering a challenge? The whole point of entering the challenges is to get feedback that helps you improve to the point where you *can* win one of those ribbons - which, incidentally, are there as a psychological incentive to enter in the first place.

Why should I hamstring myself on a hypothetical photo by doing everything in seclusion and posting a photo that I may see as perfect, when if I had just shown it to my professional photog friend before posting I could have caught that glaring mistake that cost me not only the ribbon, but possibly some of my confidence as a photog myself?

I am here to learn. If I reject the opportunity to learn simply because that opportunity comes before I post to a challenge then I am doing myself a grave disservice. By the same token, I can *only* learn with work that is my own - I get nothing from merely copying or blindly following someone else's lead.
Sara