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04/14/2005 10:26:03 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
And I can't imagine why anyone would complain if, for example, "Member X" PM'd me and asked me "How do you get that misty effect and still keep the subject sharp?" and I obliged by sending him a description of how to achieve that effect. Isn't that what we're HERE for? |
Of course that's what we are here for, and why the site is here. But why should the benefit of your expertise be limited to Member X? Sharing it in these forums and by writing tutorials would benefit many more people and wouldn't give Member X any advantage in a challenge.
Originally posted by bear_music:
This whole "go it alone" mentality seems to me strangely at odds with what I perceive as the strength of our community; the willingness of members to share their expertise with all askers. If I really CARED about ribbons and such, I'd hoard my secrets (such as they are) carefully in the hopes that I could steal a march on everyone else, wouldn't I? And if we all did that, how much use would our community be then? It would just be a "look at me!" site instead of ana ctual, thriving place for people to learn and grow within.
So my advice is, don't even THINK about stuff like that, just be here now with an open heart and mind.
Robt. |
The go it alone mentality comes from the ownership rule, and the desire for a level playing field (which I think is sort of inherent in entering any competition). It may sometimes work against the learning/teaching aspect, but the competition is an essential element of the site. The site would not prosper without the challenges. Why not try to keep them functioning at a higher level, instead of watering them down?
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04/14/2005 10:33:33 AM · #27 |
There seems to be two points. 1) How on earth can the community stop outright cheating (they do try - we actually have had people who have enter other people's pictures that they find on the web) and 2) Of what benifit is showing someone elses work?
Take this example: suppose I offered Gordon (sorry to pick on you) or another one of the regular ribbon winners 50.00 to take a picture for me so I could submit it as my own. No one is going to catch that Gordon took the picture (unless he or I say something) so no one is going to accuse me of cheating with the picture. Realistically if I got a better photographer who uses the same equipment I do to take a shot within the timeframe there is no way anyone could/would know.
The second point, I feel is more important. I don't gain anything by submitting someone elses work. The people of the site do: They get to see a well crafted picture. The admin does: they get to collect my membership fee. Gordon does (sorry to pick on you, insert name of ribbon winner here) he has an extra 50.00 bucks in his pocket. The only loser in this would be me. I would have lost the chance to improve my own skills. Lost the oppertunity to learn from trying, (never mind all the self-respect issues).
The other option is to take a picture and show it too someone more talented/experienced and get their feedback. ie Your background is too cluttered, shows to dark on my monitor, have your tried to sharpen it, etc...
In this option truely everyone wins. a) the people juding the picture have a higher quality one to look at. b) The admin don't need to worry and c) I would have actually learning something, both for this picture and (hopefully) for the next picture I take. |
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04/14/2005 11:11:13 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
It appears to me that bear_music and kirbic are drawing the line dividing allowable assistance and illegal help at a point of "it's impossible to control". IMHO, this is a very poor point at which to draw it. As Prof_Fate has pointed out, there will come a time when "'we' (the DPC community) will care." even if it is very difficult or nearly impossible to control. |
Yes, we will care, but yes, it really is impossible to control. There is simply no way to determine who did what to a file, or who was operating a camera at the time of exposure. Occasionally we do find out that the person purporting to be the photographer was not actually the photographer, and in that case we do act. Folks have been disqualified in the past for not being the photographer for their submission.
Originally posted by coolhar:
Of course the mission here is learning and teaching. But the challenges, with their element of competition, is what motivates us to keep learning, and trying new things. The more level that playing field the better it is for all of us. An overly permissive attitude regarding the rule on ownership gives shelter to those who would abuse it at the expense of those who seek to comply with it. Some of the remarks in this thread seem to encourage people to stretch the rule. |
Without a doubt, both the teaching/learning and challenge aspects of DPC contribute to the site's success. The teaching/learning aspect carries with it the risk of oversteping, either intentionally or unintentionally, the line between "helping" and "doing for". It's a risk we must take, the benefits are so great. I firmly believe that folks are quite capable of asking themselves whether the image qualifies as "their creation". I really don't see any remarks made here as encouraging folks to stretch the rule. the Challenge Rules clearly state that you must be the photographer, for your submission. The process of photography includes the digital darkroom.
Originally posted by coolhar:
How far is too far? At some point we will have to make a decision. In regards to asking others about which shot to enter-- obviously it would be nearly impossible to prevent someone from asking a family member which to enter when a photographer is truly at an impass between two photos, but you can still try to discourage such; at the other extreme, is it impossible to say in these forums that soliciting help in making that decision should be avoided instead of having a totally "anything goes" approach to it? Would you still think that it was permissible because it is impossible to enforce if someone were found to be posting in a public forum several finished images and asking total strangers which would get the better score? What if they did this repeatedly? What if they did it for every challenge?
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IMO, asking folks not to ask other, disinterested parties about potential entries at all is going too far. I asked my daughter her opinion on two potential submissions for "Abandoned Buildings." Exactly what is wrong with soliciting outside opinion on the quality of a shot, or the relative quality of several shots?
What's at issue in this duscussion thread is the question of "how much help is too much?" The answer to that is simply, it is too much if you are no longer qualified to claim the image as your own creation.
With regard to discussing potential submissions, I'm aware that some do post on other sites, and this is a gray area. If other DPCers frequent the same site, then it is a breach of anonymity. While it does not violate the letter of the site rules, it does violate the spirit of them, specifically the concept of anonymity, which is a very important attribute of the challenges at DPC.
Originally posted by coolhar:
Just as we rely on the honesty of each person entering to comply with the rules, the community relies on it's leaders, as heard in these forums, to give guidance on how to comply. Saying that we are not going to bother to police the things that are difficult to enforce is, in a way, abdicating responsibility. |
I do believe that this discussion will help folks to think through this issue and to make good decisions on what is acceptable and not. Your last sentence is problematic for me. No one ever implied that we wouldn't "bother" with policing the rules. We do need to recognize our limits, however; we are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. We must recognize that in certain areas, our enforcement will be somewhat reliant on the honor system. If you have specific, workable ideas as to how we might better guide and enforce, please do feel free to suggest them.
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04/14/2005 11:32:24 AM · #29 |
Thanx, Kirbic, for the point-by-point discussion/response immediately above; saves me the trouble of doing same. Benefit of sleeping in :-) I must say I'm amused that you adn I are being portrayed as somehow supporting laxity of moral standards on this site. You, of course, are SC and for myself, I am a founder and administrator of a site for game-playing online (www.eliters.org) where we have to deal with exactly these sorts of issues on a daily basis. So I've learned to be pragmatic about rules.
Rules we've got up the wazoo, but we've tried not to create rules that can't be objectively enforced. Even so, we have rules against "cheating"; if you're playing a partners game (spades, bridge, euchre, liek that) it's not "legal" to talk with yoru partner over messenger during tournament play and reveal your cards to them, for instance. But it's mostly in the realm of a peer-pressure, moral type of code because it's just about impossible to prove this is happening. But discussions of the entire issue in our forums are beneficial, and help generate a "culture" in which cheaters don't feel comfortable.
For me the critical thing is to draw a realistic line and say "this isn't cheating, that IS." And in DPC, it would be highly unrealistic and counterproductive to say, for example, that an idea once discussed is no longer useable by another shooter, as it's not "their" idea. It's unrealistic to say it's "cheating" to post, during mid-challenge, a request for someone to describe how they attain a certain effect, then use that effect on the challenge photo. These things are part of the normal creative give-and-take in our site.
Incidentally, re: paying Gordon to shoot a pic for me using the 'same type of camera", I believe EXIF data embed the serial number of the actual camera used to make the image? Can anyone confirm that? I'm on a different machine here and can't read exif.
Robt. |
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04/14/2005 11:49:54 AM · #30 |
All this for a faux ribbon and bragging rights?
I think shooters that ask help on technique and composition are only helping themselves to better use the equipment and build the "Eye" for shooting.
Some (myself included) complain about the low quality shots in many of the challenges...you want better shots help the shooter before the challenge, not condemn them after via critique.
There will always be someone in the race who takes the shortcut to get ahead of the pack...they have to live with knowing that it wasn't done the proper way. If they can live with it they probably take short cuts in everything that they do.
Now if money was involved this would be a whole new ballgame. :)
ED: Repeated word.
Message edited by author 2005-04-14 12:11:39. |
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04/14/2005 12:01:39 PM · #31 |
Not sure Robert... but I do believe that the serial number is only recorded in the exif file if you enter it at the product registration phase.
Ray |
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04/14/2005 12:18:01 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Not sure Robert... but I do believe that the serial number is only recorded in the exif file if you enter it at the product registration phase.
Ray |
My 10D definitely embeds its serial number on every image. I did not enter this during the registration process.
FWIW, the serial number does not prove or disprove who took the picture.
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04/14/2005 12:19:01 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Not sure Robert... but I do believe that the serial number is only recorded in the exif file if you enter it at the product registration phase.
Ray |
Which, presumably, everyone does or they can't register? My point being, we can "bust Gordon" if he tries to earn a quick 50 bucks (cf: the earlier hypothetical of a member hiring grodon), by comparing exif data? Just curious LOL...
Robt. |
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04/14/2005 12:42:56 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Just to clarify I mean actual physical help. Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.. and I don't mean DPC rules, I mean personal opinions on this. Ribbon winners having help. |
I don't see ANY problem with that - at all. You'd be very hard pressed to find a photo in any magazine or other publication that was shot with just one, single, lonely photographer. Any moral dilemna is lost on me here. |
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04/14/2005 01:00:07 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Not sure Robert... but I do believe that the serial number is only recorded in the exif file if you enter it at the product registration phase.
Ray |
Which, presumably, everyone does or they can't register? My point being, we can "bust Gordon" if he tries to earn a quick 50 bucks (cf: the earlier hypothetical of a member hiring grodon), by comparing exif data? Just curious LOL...
Robt. |
:-) Guess I will just have spend that 50.00 on props instead. Maybe fly Gorden (or any other ribbon winner)way up North and have him actually use my camera ya! So for a few hundred dollars a way of cheating. Where do I sign up. (j/k) |
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04/14/2005 01:02:38 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
... I don't consider ANY sort of discussion and/or evaluation to be "collaboration", for the simple reason that it's completely impossible to control. As far as I'm concerned, speaking of post-processing in specific, as long as you DO it yourself (don't expect me to post-process your image for you and send it back so you can enter it...) the amount of advice that precedes it and feedback that follows it is irrelevant ... |
Originally posted by bear_music:
... I must say I'm amused that ... I a(m) being portrayed as somehow supporting laxity ... |
How could you be any more "lax" in your attitude toward enforcement, except maybe to just not have any rules at all?
Did your reliance on kirbic's response make you feel that it was ok to bypass my next post? Wouldn't it be better to share your expertise with everybody?
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04/14/2005 01:48:15 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
IMO, asking folks not to ask other, disinterested parties about potential entries at all is going too far. I asked my daughter her opinion on two potential submissions for "Abandoned Buildings." Exactly what is wrong with soliciting outside opinion on the quality of a shot, or the relative quality of several shots?
What's at issue in this duscussion thread is the question of "how much help is too much?" The answer to that is simply, it is too much if you are no longer qualified to claim the image as your own creation.
With regard to discussing potential submissions, I'm aware that some do post on other sites, and this is a gray area. If other DPCers frequent the same site, then it is a breach of anonymity. While it does not violate the letter of the site rules, it does violate the spirit of them, specifically the concept of anonymity, which is a very important attribute of the challenges at DPC. |
In my example, if the images are posted in a public forum organized around photography, and the challenge topic is stated verbatim with a reference to the deadline, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that such a post would come to the attention of some dpc users? Isn't that different than asking your daughter's opinion?
Originally posted by kirbic:
I do believe that this discussion will help folks to think through this issue and to make good decisions on what is acceptable and not. Your last sentence is problematic for me. No one ever implied that we wouldn't "bother" with policing the rules. We do need to recognize our limits, however; we are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. We must recognize that in certain areas, our enforcement will be somewhat reliant on the honor system. If you have specific, workable ideas as to how we might better guide and enforce, please do feel free to suggest them. |
Since we do rely so heavily on the Honor System, my specific suggestion would be that when people post in the forums about rules they try to dwell on what is the right thing to do, and how to do it. Saying things like "that's impossible to enforce" sends a much different message than saying "that is possibly a violation of the rules, and we'll enforce the rules if we can. You would be better off to avoid doing that". There is no need to draw attention to the loopholes, or to publicize the areas that are difficult to patrol. In my way of thinking there is a big difference between understanding that some things are difficult to enforce and saying that difficulty makes it OK to do them.
The reasons that I think people should be discouraged from asking which potential entry would do better, whether of a family member or in a forum, are 1) it can undermine anonymity; 2) it, along with editing suggestions, starts us down the slippery slope toward having to make subjective judgements about the ownership rule; and 3) not all entrants are going to get the same assistance in making that decision which "un-levels" the playing field.
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04/14/2005 02:29:04 PM · #38 |
Alright maybe I am missing something. I see the admin saying they are doing their best and if anyone has any suggestions how to do better please let them know. I don't understand how that is not taking the matter seriously, or encouraging cheeting.
Originally posted by kirbic:
you have specific, workable ideas as to how we might better guide and enforce, please do feel free to suggest them. |
The second issue seems to be having an "unfair" playing field. I hate to break it too anyone but of course it is unfair. Some people have really good equiment, others extra time, still others just are naturally talented, and still others are good at making friend and being able to discern good advice from less good. All these things are "unfair". (There are other discssions on this.) Ya it is unfair that Gorden etc(picking on ya again, but any of the well known photographers here) doesn't have time to help everyone. If they choose they can help those that ask. If they choose they can write tutorials, either here on or other sites. The quickest way to stop having someone volunteer their help is to make it manditor that they help.
If I ask Crabby (or Gordon or whoever) that I am still having trouble with curves (lighting, Fstop, whatever) and would they please walk me though it (again), you are right it is unfair for the 500 people who didn't have their help. But the other 500 people also didn't ask, or didn't ask at a time when the other person was available etc...
Basically what we are discussing is ownship of knowledge. Where does Gordon (insert name here) sharring his knowledge of photography become my knowledge? Frankly I think it the Kudos do for all the hundreds of people who are willing to help someone become a better photographer should be encouraged and nurtured. I think it is great that recent winner have gone out of their way to recognise that no-one's talent develops in a vacuum, rather by helping each other up we can raise everyone's abilities.
Again if you know of a way that the admin of this site could encourage the sharing of knowledge, I am sure they would like to hear it. Frankly I feel they have done a terific job of encourage people share ideas, techniques, styles, information regarding equipment etc...
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04/14/2005 03:45:30 PM · #39 |
i completely agree with Carol. unless, all of us have the same equipment, the same level of experience and are shooting the exact same subject, there is no way that the playing field is level.
there are members here who are professional photographers and make their living from photography and we have beginners who are using a camera and photo editing software for the first time. we have members who are studying photography at college and members who have learned everything they know by trial and error. we all submit to the same challenges. should i be penalized because i'm comfortable asking a friend, whose opinion i trust, for help? how is that different than a photography student asking their teacher for help?
as far as the subject of posting photos to other photography sites, i don't see how that could possibly be policed nor do i think it should. the photographer owns their photos and they have every right to do whatever they want with them, including posting them to other sites. |
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04/14/2005 04:07:05 PM · #40 |
OK, so everybody can buy a second camera and tripod, and set it up so that when they take their picture, the second comera will take a picture of the set-up -- the photographer taking the photo. Make sure the clocks are set accurately as the EXIF time recorded for the two pictures (the entry and the set-up shot) must agree within one minute for the photo to "prove" you took the photo. If anyone suspects you didn't take the photo, you'll have to submit both originals for verification.
Or ... we can accept people's word when they say they took the photo, like we do about their identity and everything else around here. |
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04/14/2005 04:13:27 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
OK, so everybody can buy a second camera and tripod, and set it up so that when they take their picture, the second comera will take a picture of the set-up -- the photographer taking the photo. Make sure the clocks are set accurately as the EXIF time recorded for the two pictures (the entry and the set-up shot) must agree within one minute for the photo to "prove" you took the photo. If anyone suspects you didn't take the photo, you'll have to submit both originals for verification.
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You forgot the part where we shoot anyone who crosses the line. Shoot them dead. |
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04/14/2005 04:24:14 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by sher9204:
i completely agree with Carol. unless, all of us have the same equipment, the same level of experience and are shooting the exact same subject, there is no way that the playing field is level
there are members here who are professional photographers and make their living from photography and we have beginners who are using a camera and photo editing software for the first time. we have members who are studying photography at college and members who have learned everything they know by trial and error. we all submit to the same challenges. should i be penalized because i'm comfortable asking a friend, whose opinion i trust, for help? how is that different than a photography student asking their teacher for help?. |
The playing field will never be totally level, but we can strive to keep it as level as possible, as opposed to casually allowing it to become less level.
Originally posted by sher9204:
as far as the subject of posting photos to other photography sites, i don't see how that could possibly be policed nor do i think it should. the photographer owns their photos and they have every right to do whatever they want with them, including posting them to other sites. |
You may not think it should be policed but this could actually be policed very easily. Whenever someone finds an image on another website that is currently in voting, or vice versa, they request a DQ and include the URL of the other website. If the SC checks it out and it's the same pic, or one very, very similiar to it, the entry is DQ'ed. Of course there would need to be a rule change, but it is not "impossible to control".
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04/14/2005 04:27:05 PM · #43 |
I ask my hubby at least 29 times during each challenge prior to entering. "What do you think of this one?" His response is always the same. "Wow, that's great!" He's very supportive but not much help. I don't feel in anyway that I'm doing anything wrong. He doesn't belong to the site and doesn't vote. If he was an expert, I still don't think it would be wrong to ask for advice because he's not affiliated with dpc.
One of my submissions awhile back happened to be one of my photo-a-day's that I had at another site. I didn't realize that I could hide an individual photo or I would have. I thought you could only hide whole galleries. Anyway, I removed the link from my profile page here during that week so nothing connected me from dpc to that site but I almost requested a dq on my photo because I felt like I wasn't remaining anonymous.
What I don't think is right is when the photo or a very close version is posted here at dpc prior to the challenge. (like what happened recently) Or when you're voting on something and it looks familiar and sure enough you go look in someone's portfolio and there is their outtake of the same subject.
sp.
Message edited by author 2005-04-14 16:33:38. |
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04/14/2005 04:35:13 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by C-Fox:
There seems to be two points. 1) How on earth can the community stop outright cheating (they do try - we actually have had people who have enter other people's pictures that they find on the web) and 2) Of what benifit is showing someone elses work?
Take this example: suppose I offered Gordon (sorry to pick on you) or another one of the regular ribbon winners 50.00 to take a picture for me so I could submit it as my own. No one is going to catch that Gordon took the picture (unless he or I say something) so no one is going to accuse me of cheating with the picture. Realistically if I got a better photographer who uses the same equipment I do to take a shot within the timeframe there is no way anyone could/would know.
The second point, I feel is more important. I don't gain anything by submitting someone elses work. The people of the site do: They get to see a well crafted picture. The admin does: they get to collect my membership fee. Gordon does (sorry to pick on you, insert name of ribbon winner here) he has an extra 50.00 bucks in his pocket. The only loser in this would be me. I would have lost the chance to improve my own skills. Lost the oppertunity to learn from trying, (never mind all the self-respect issues).
The other option is to take a picture and show it too someone more talented/experienced and get their feedback. ie Your background is too cluttered, shows to dark on my monitor, have your tried to sharpen it, etc...
In this option truely everyone wins. a) the people juding the picture have a higher quality one to look at. b) The admin don't need to worry and c) I would have actually learning something, both for this picture and (hopefully) for the next picture I take. |
I have a problem with the first option [other than the more obvious I haven't won a ribbon in a long time, I don't have a 10D, and I charge more than $50...) but I think the second option (of discussing and soliciting feedback from a small group of peers) is perfectly reasonable. |
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04/14/2005 04:36:13 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Incidentally, re: paying Gordon to shoot a pic for me using the 'same type of camera", I believe EXIF data embed the serial number of the actual camera used to make the image? Can anyone confirm that? I'm on a different machine here and can't read exif.
Robt. |
Some cameras certainly do. |
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04/14/2005 04:38:51 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
How could you be any more "lax" in your attitude toward enforcement, except maybe to just not have any rules at all?
Did your reliance on kirbic's response make you feel that it was ok to bypass my next post? Wouldn't it be better to share your expertise with everybody? |
So would it be 'cheating' in your spirit of the rules to be taking classes on the side, perhaps discussing and improving your photography along the way, outwith the arena of dpc, but still entering the product of those classes in DPC ?
How about buying a book and reading it and improving ?
Is it cheating that I have a couple of degrees in image processing and earn a living designing cameras ?
Sorry - but it doesn't make much sense.
Message edited by author 2005-04-14 16:42:08. |
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04/14/2005 04:44:49 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Or ... we can accept people's word when they say they took the photo, like we do about their identity and everything else around here. |
I agree. We should be more trusting.If the council want an image verified fair enough. In my example my extreme action shot has me in the picture. I got my brother to help me out as he often does but I setup the shot, I setup the camera and I directed the action and checked the shots after each one. All he did was press the button. Now you could say that I should be DQ'd but I know myself it's my shot. If you are getting someone else to do all the thinking then you are cheating yourself as a photographer. Yes you are learning by seeing how it's done but to claim the photograph as your own.Cheating yourself. IMO |
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04/14/2005 05:18:42 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So would it be 'cheating' in your spirit of the rules to be taking classes on the side, perhaps discussing and improving your photography along the way, outwith the arena of dpc, but still entering the product of those classes in DPC ?
How about buying a book and reading it and improving ?
Is it cheating that I have a couple of degrees in image processing and earn a living designing cameras ?
Sorry - but it doesn't make much sense. |
None of the things you mention relate directly to what this thread is about. We are talking of getting help on a specific image intended for entry into a challenge; and about getting help in deciding which such image to enter.
Do you think it would be cheating to take several shots of old factories for the Abandoned Buildings challenge, edit them, and then take a few to your photography class and ask the instructor and fellow students which one was the best shot and how you could improve it, go home and incorporate those suggestions into your edit (maybe some major changes like a different crop, or conversion to b&w) and then upload the shot as an entry into the challenge?
I think we should encourage people to make their challenge entries as much their own work as they can. IMHO, some other posters seem to think that since we cannot control it absolutely that we should just throw up our hands and say anything is OK. To repeat myself- "The playing field will never be totally level, but we can strive to keep it as level as possible, as opposed to casually allowing it to become less level."
What do you think about posting a challenge entry on another website during voting?
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04/14/2005 05:28:18 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Do you think it would be cheating to take several shots of old factories for the Abandoned Buildings challenge, edit them, and then take a few to your photography class and ask the instructor and fellow students which one was the best shot and how you could improve it, go home and incorporate those suggestions into your edit (maybe some major changes like a different crop, or conversion to b&w) and then upload the shot as an entry into the challenge? |
No. Do you? Maybe then we could avoid the "boy, this is the most boring selection of entries I've ever seen and I fell asleep while voting" threads. I don't see any reason for anyone to have to refuse any kind of help that they could get, in any form. Isn't the whole purpose of this site to learn how to be a better photographer? Why crush that?
Originally posted by coolhar:
What do you think about posting a challenge entry on another website during voting? |
Why would that matter? If the photo has already been submitting and is being voted on, you can't change it anyway.
I think to act like we could police such things when it's fairly obvious that we cannot doesn't make much sense. |
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04/14/2005 05:44:16 PM · #50 |
it seems to me that there's no reason to forbid people from posting their photos on other sites because the anonymity on this site is already somewhat compromised.
a photographer who has been shooting for awhile will almost certainly develop a style, whether it's in the subject (s)he shoots or with the post-processing. anyone who has been around this site for more than a few challenges can recognize the style or regular models used by the photographer. so, how do we keep that from happening? do we tell Sonifo, Jacko, Arnit and (gasp!) Dr. Jones that they have to find new models or they can't submit to the challenges? Do we tell Kiwi, Manny or Heida that they have to change their style of work so it's not easily recognizable? even i, in all my insignificance, get comments on almost every challenge photo that say "this must be a photo from sher". do i have to stop photographing and processing in the style i love just so my work isn't recognized. do i stop submitting to challenges for the sake of anonymity? where do we draw the line? |
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