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03/31/2005 03:45:22 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by ovenbird:
Originally posted by Sammie:
Another option to consider: the Canon 10D. You can buy a brand new one now for the same price or lower than the Rebel XT. Stores are selling them out. |
Having owned a 10D I will say that the XT is a better camera is pretty much every way than the 10D. I personally feel that buying a 10D over an XT for the same money would be a foolish move unless the XT really felt bad in your hands.
Tom |
You guys know my Rebel/XT/10D saga already, but what I do know is that since getting the 10D (for less than a Rebel...$799US) I have been so impressed with it, moreso than I was with the Rebel. So just to be sure that I'm making the right decision, I am assuming that I will be even MORE impressed with the XT's performance after using the 10D, right? I am kind of torn about letting the 10D go after using it for the past couple of weeks. Glad this thread came up because I really want to be sure I'm getting the best cam for my $. :o)
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03/31/2005 03:48:42 PM · #27 |
>Originally posted by zeuszen:
I you shoot action, the 20D delivers 5 fps, the 350 only 3 fps. The 20D buffer also is >significantly faster (14 vs 23 high res JPEGs per burst).
This can be nice but I do not feel that it is necessary for action.
>The 20D auto-focus can be more precise and capable than the XT's.
I haven’t found this to be the case in practice
>The 20D has a pentaprism, the XT a pentamirror. The magnification is slightly greater with the pentaprism.
Doesn’t seem to be a significant difference to me.
>Shutter speed and ISO setting covers twice the range with the 20D.
Is it a range that you will actually use? I have shot on some pretty bright days with the XT and haven’t run into trouble so far. Also ISO 3200 doesn’t really seem all that great on the 20D, as a result I never used it when taking actual pictures with mine.
>If you rely on an external flash for much of your work, the 20D offers no limits or impairments.
Could be, I never used an external flash with mine other than an ST-E2 and 550EX’s which work great with the XT as well.
>The 20D is built stronger with a more durable shutter.
Can you show any official word from Canon stating this? If so I would love to see it.
>There are twice as many custom functions with the 20D than with the XT.
Are they ones that you will actually use? I would love to have CF17 but then again I don’t own a lens that can even take advantage of it.
>The XT is lighter the 20D. (I, personally, prefer a heavier camera. Some people do not).
Yes, this, like the feel of the camera is highly user dependent.
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Tom
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03/31/2005 03:55:53 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Gauti:
I tried the 350D and found it too small and flimsy. I do outdoors photography and I need a strong and sturdy camera that can take a lot of abuse.
I'm fairly sure I'd be disappointed with the 350D had I chosen that one.
Cheers. |
I do almost exclusively outdoors photography and used a digital rebel for a long time without issues. I have used it in deserts, rain storms and in a wide variety of harsh conditions. The digital rebel never once let me down and to me that is saying a lot. The 20D is a fine camera and I really enjoyed owning mine but build quality isn’t one of the things I miss about it.
Tom
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03/31/2005 04:25:40 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by ovenbird:
>Originally posted by zeuszen:
...>The 20D is built stronger with a more durable shutter.
Can you show any official word from Canon stating this? If so I would love to see it... |
Tom |
No, you're quite right, Canon does not appear to officially publicize any specific data in this regard. I wouldn't either, for obvious reasons. Yet there is much consensus that differences in the life expectancy of shutters in their respective camera models exist. It is quoted in just about every reputable review, listed by resellers as fact and anecdotelly related by users who've had their shutter fail or not fail.
I questioned a Canon technician about this matter last year, referring to the 10D, who agreed that such differences do, in fact, exist, but I also remember that he was cautious enough to resist giving me any specific actuation figures.
Talking to people about their experience who have used either one or several Canon DSLRs for years now, has prompted me to consider model-specific differences in shutter life as fact. Your milage may vary.
Message edited by author 2005-03-31 16:27:12.
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03/31/2005 04:58:25 PM · #30 |
Could you at least give me some links to reputable reviewers who state this as being fact and or reputable retailers (Canon authorized dealers)? From best I can tell those numbers are largely meaningless. I can tell you that my 10D failed after far less than 100K shots and even 50K shots is a stretch. Also I have come across very few reports where the failure was actually due to the shutter failing. In the case of my 10D it was the mirror mechanism that failed and not the shutter. I also believe that this is a very common way for the digital rebel to fail. Also there are several accounts of digital rebels lasting in excess of 100K shots.
If these figures were such secrets, why does Canon publish the number for the EOS 1D mk2?
I think this shutter life expectancy thing is another one of those "sounds correct" Internet myths that keep getting spread like wildfire.
Also, how were you able to talk directly with a Canon technician? I have tried on several occasions to do exactly that and was told by various levels of management at all three Canon factory service centers (including Mark Falck, the general manager of the IL factory service center) that it is against company policy to allow customers to talk directly with the technicians.
I would really like to be able to talk with them as I have lots of questions about service that has been performed on my equipment.
Thanks,
Tom
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by ovenbird:
>Originally posted by zeuszen:
...>The 20D is built stronger with a more durable shutter.
Can you show any official word from Canon stating this? If so I would love to see it... |
Tom |
No, you're quite right, Canon does not appear to officially publicize any specific data in this regard. I wouldn't either, for obvious reasons. Yet there is much consensus that differences in the life expectancy of shutters in their respective camera models exist. It is quoted in just about every reputable review, listed by resellers as fact and anecdotelly related by users who've had their shutter fail or not fail.
I questioned a Canon technician about this matter last year, referring to the 10D, who agreed that such differences do, in fact, exist, but I also remember that he was cautious enough to resist giving me any specific actuation figures.
Talking to people about their experience who have used either one or several Canon DSLRs for years now, has prompted me to consider model-specific differences in shutter life as fact. Your milage may vary. |
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03/31/2005 05:52:04 PM · #31 |
> ovenbird
I don't record every site I visit, but here's onelink I remember without investing time.
I live in Vancouver, Canada. My closest Canon Technician is In Calgary, Alta. I used to know him by name, which wasn't hard, since he's only one of two in this function at this location.
There are several Canon resellers in Vancouver. One of them is here, another here. The discussion about shutters also included a Canon sales rep at the latter store.
As I said before ("Your milage may vary") I'm not affiliated with Canon and cannot speak for them. If you believe there is no difference in shutter built between any of the mentioned DSLRs, then so be it. I am convinced there is. Either one of us could be wrong.
As for hard facts, one of my two 10Ds has about 75.000 actuations, the other more. Neither have had any problems and operate perfectly. Ellamay has a high-milage Rebel with a single shutter replacement at, roughly, at an estimated half the amount of actuations.
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03/31/2005 05:59:40 PM · #32 |
any shutter cycle rating anyone finds, personally tests, or what have you is an average... the shutter life on average ( based on the testing done ) for the 1ds MII is 200,000 cycles. it could fail well before that, or out live that figure 2 fold.
we are talking about mechanical parts, and there is no guarantee with anything mechanical how long it will last.
Message edited by author 2005-03-31 18:00:08.
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04/01/2005 01:29:33 AM · #33 |
So you basically have zero hard evidence to back up your claim about the shutter. I am pretty solidly convinced that the shutter life myth is just somethign that has been repeated so many times that people now just accept it as fact. If you believe everything you hear from sales reps at photo dealers then more power to you. Anyone who I have ever talked to at Canon has said that the 50K average shutter life is not an official Canon number.
Tom
Originally posted by zeuszen:
> ovenbird
I don't record every site I visit, but here's onelink I remember without investing time.
I live in Vancouver, Canada. My closest Canon Technician is In Calgary, Alta. I used to know him by name, which wasn't hard, since he's only one of two in this function at this location.
There are several Canon resellers in Vancouver. One of them is here, another here. The discussion about shutters also included a Canon sales rep at the latter store.
As I said before ("Your milage may vary") I'm not affiliated with Canon and cannot speak for them. If you believe there is no difference in shutter built between any of the mentioned DSLRs, then so be it. I am convinced there is. Either one of us could be wrong.
As for hard facts, one of my two 10Ds has about 75.000 actuations, the other more. Neither have had any problems and operate perfectly. Ellamay has a high-milage Rebel with a single shutter replacement at, roughly, at an estimated half the amount of actuations. |
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04/01/2005 02:00:45 AM · #34 |
I would assume with fair confidence Canon has some idea how long their shutters will last, on average. We know there are different designs for the different levels of cameras (300, 20 and 1). I would hope to hell the high end pro 35MM slr's that sell for 2 grand or more and get abused have hte best shuutter mechanism there is. I am not sure what else all that money pays for.
It is reasonable to assume that the Pros take more shots than us amateures (well, it was true in the film era anyway) and that canon/nikon/et al do buld their pro cameras very very well, and need not build the consumer camera quite so tough.
I have talked with newpaper folks that run 100k on their film bodies and then replace them - by then the shutter (mirrors, etc) are wearing and loose, etc. Not worth a complete rebuild - but these cameras are not trashed - they are often passed on to friends that use them for years onward.
Whether it is 50,000 or 62,177.3 actuations till it dies, on average, matters not - if it dies on you it sucks. Plain and simple.
I figure my Rebel will take 20-25000 shots for me as my main camera. I think I can safley assume it will live that long without incident. I will replace it not becuase it's shutter is getting worn, but because technology will lure me into a new relationship.
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04/01/2005 08:02:04 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by ovenbird:
So you basically have zero hard evidence to back up your claim about the shutter. I am pretty solidly convinced that the shutter life myth is just somethign that has been repeated so many times that people now just accept it as fact. If you believe everything you hear from sales reps at photo dealers then more power to you. Anyone who I have ever talked to at Canon has said that the 50K average shutter life is not an official Canon number.
Tom |
I really don't understand the logic behind expecting Canon to use the same workmanship, materials and quality checks on the shutter mechanism which can be found on a $1000 camera used by hobbyists versus a $10,000 camera used by professionals. If that were the case, you'd either be overengineering the 1k digital rebel or pissing off professionals that bought the 1dsmkII.
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04/01/2005 08:36:10 AM · #36 |
Bought a 20D as the 350XT was announced.
Having gotten used to the thumb wheel on my 35mm 50e, would have been a bit of a step backwards on entering the fray of DSLR-dom if I had bought the 350XT. Also, love the thumb wheel for reviewing photos (reminds me of an iPod). Worth a few hundred - not by itself.
However, I have taken 2000 pics in the last month (released from the constraints of film for SLR work - love that 25 shot burst, and can actually use auto bracketing without expense). I think that extra life cycle might be valuable (!). If true (the figures come from the original linked article) then worthwhile. And I guess that 5fps may occasionally prove itself in action moments.
Miss the infra-red, though: great feature (photographed a wedding ceremony, including myself, using it where the couple eloped with me and my fiancee: no guests, just us & them, and I was the combined best man and photographer. Only issue was looking too pleased with myself in the pictures!) |
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04/01/2005 11:23:59 AM · #37 |
Miss the infra-red?
Can you explain? |
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04/01/2005 11:32:39 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by ovenbird:
So you basically have zero hard evidence to back up your claim about the shutter. I am pretty solidly convinced that the shutter life myth is just somethign that has been repeated so many times that people now just accept it as fact... |
Neither do you have any evidence to the contrary, do you? Perhaps we can just accept this as fact until we know better.
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04/01/2005 11:56:31 AM · #39 |
Kinda like a Ford Tempo tends to have less life and quality than a Ford Taurus which tends to have less life and quality than a Ford Crown Victoria?
And are priced accordingly?...naawwww just don't believe it... ;) |
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04/01/2005 12:10:34 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Miss the infra-red?
Can you explain? |
Sorry - yes: my old EOS 50e (35mm) had the same infra red shutter release system as the 300D and the 350XT have. You can buy a small Canon remote control unit that allows you to snap picture from about 7-8 metres away, and clips onto the camera strap for storage. Has the nice function of allowing you a 2 second delay, which means self portraits don't always include you pointing the RC unit at the camera! Have bought a wire for the 20d (Ebay), which is useful for Bulb exposures and no jogging of the camera, but it does not give quite the same flexibility for self portraits.
I note that the Ebay seller who sells the knock off Chinese remote wires (bought one - works fine) also sells a kit that includes an ultrasonic transmitter that can be used from a km or two away (if someone does not nick your camera while you are so far away from it...!). But it costs a few hundred, I think. |
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04/04/2005 01:11:10 PM · #41 |
From speaking with a person at the factory service center (not a technician) there was a seemingly higher than expected number of failures of the mirror mechanism in these bodies. Their guess was that the designers didn’t expect people to use the cameras as much as it looks like they are using them and probably ended up using similar construction to intro film SLR’s. He believed that the 20D and XT have better designed parts to try to keep up better with the higher rate of shooting that comes with the digital age.
It actually makes a lot of sense. When you aren’t thinking about spending money every time you click the shutter release button you tend to shoot more. I know this was certainly the case for me.
In any case the conclusion of my conversation was that yes the XT should have a lower duty cycle than the 20D which would then be less than a 1D mk2 but the shutter is usually not the weak point in the system. Also we agreed that the 50K number has no basis in reality but the lower end cameras would have a smaller duty cycle.
Tom
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by ovenbird:
So you basically have zero hard evidence to back up your claim about the shutter. I am pretty solidly convinced that the shutter life myth is just somethign that has been repeated so many times that people now just accept it as fact. If you believe everything you hear from sales reps at photo dealers then more power to you. Anyone who I have ever talked to at Canon has said that the 50K average shutter life is not an official Canon number.
Tom |
I really don't understand the logic behind expecting Canon to use the same workmanship, materials and quality checks on the shutter mechanism which can be found on a $1000 camera used by hobbyists versus a $10,000 camera used by professionals. If that were the case, you'd either be overengineering the 1k digital rebel or pissing off professionals that bought the 1dsmkII. |
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04/04/2005 01:38:12 PM · #42 |
I agree. I know a couple of Porsche and Corvette owners who agree that high price tags don’t mean outstanding reliability. There are other features that make the more expensive products more expensive than just build quality. If you are buying an $8K 1Ds mk2 you are getting a full-frame sensor, quite a few more pixels, a spot meterâ€Â¦
I don’t think the pros are going to really care much at all if a 20D or even XT could last as long as they are getting a lot more for their money than just duty cycle.
Tom
Originally posted by theSaj:
Kinda like a Ford Tempo tends to have less life and quality than a Ford Taurus which tends to have less life and quality than a Ford Crown Victoria?
And are priced accordingly?...naawwww just don't believe it... ;) |
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04/04/2005 02:04:47 PM · #43 |
Having Used both, I can say that there are less reasons to go for the 20D vs 350XT than there were between the 10D and the 300D
The 20d is really not that much more solid then the 350XT, when the 300D came out, it was obviously "less" of a camera than the 10D was, but I find that Canon as been going downward in rugedness with the Bodies to keep the prices lower. |
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04/04/2005 03:50:41 PM · #44 |
argh...
I just hit "report post" by accident instead of "reply"...
So if anyone gets that to review, i have no complaint against "Gil P"...
*sigh*
Tired...need to nap...this head cold is getting to me... |
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04/04/2005 03:54:50 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
argh...
I just hit "report post" by accident instead of "reply"...
So if anyone gets that to review, i have no complaint against "Gil P"...
*sigh*
Tired...need to nap...this head cold is getting to me... |
Its taken care of! Get some rest. :)
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04/04/2005 03:55:07 PM · #46 |
Heh... I was curious about that! :)
Originally posted by theSaj:
argh... I just hit "report post" by accident instead of "reply"... |
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04/04/2005 04:22:27 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by theSaj:
argh...
I just hit "report post" by accident instead of "reply"...
So if anyone gets that to review, i have no complaint against "Gil P"...
*sigh*
Tired...need to nap...this head cold is getting to me... |
Its taken care of! Get some rest. :) |
I have done this, but... without extending the courtesy to acknowledge my mistake. Mea culpa. Je m'excuse. Curtsy, hat in hand...
Message edited by author 2005-04-04 16:22:49.
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