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03/24/2005 02:08:27 PM · #1 |
| I just bought my first dslr camera and have a lot to learn. I am looking for some opinions, or tips on taking pictures at a local high school gym of an adult league basket ball game. I will be shooting with my Rebel XT with my only lens that is very slow, my 28-135 IS USM. Not having any experience with this camera and shooting sports I am having to guess on how to set up for this situation. My plan is to use an ISO of 400 and shoot in the Tv mode and hope for the best? I was hoping to get down to at least 1/250 and try my best to keep the frame still? What about flash? I know that the built in flash is not all that great so should I even try to use it? Will using the flash just piss off the players? Is my lens just too slow to be even trying this? TIA Robert |
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03/24/2005 02:25:07 PM · #2 |
you might want to take ISO up to 800 and try to get the speed up to 1/500 or faster, otherwise real action shot like a slam dunk might be a little moved, I havn´t tried the XT yet but I have the 20D and during indoor sports I keep the 20D at ISO 800-1600 and use my 70-200L f2.8 IS at f2.8 and the speed at 1/1000 that way all my shots get 100% frozen in time.
I know the 300D was pretty bad at ISO 800 but I think the XT might be closer to the 20D wich is quite good at ISO 3200 :)
just a thought.. |
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03/24/2005 02:36:52 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
I have the 20D and during indoor sports I keep the 20D at ISO 800-1600 and use my 70-200L f2.8 IS at f2.8 and the speed at 1/1000 that way all my shots get 100% frozen in time. |
I have the same lens and was wondering if you've had problems with shallow depth of field at that aperture when shooting sports? Or are you far enough away that it doesn't really matter? |
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03/24/2005 02:48:42 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
you might want to take ISO up to 800 and try to get the speed up to 1/500 or faster, otherwise real action shot like a slam dunk might be a little moved |
Thanks for your input DanSig! I'll start with ISO 800. Any thoughts on the flash? Thanks again Robert |
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03/24/2005 02:54:58 PM · #5 |
You might want to just try the sports mode on the main dial. I too am just starting to find my way around the 350D. I tried the sports mode with the 200mm zoom on some birds and obtained very reasonable results.
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03/24/2005 03:07:18 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by p3wiz:
You might want to just try the sports mode on the main dial. I too am just starting to find my way around the 350D. I tried the sports mode with the 200mm zoom on some birds and obtained very reasonable results. |
Thanks for your reply p3wiz! Well for some reason I̢۪m very worried about the flash going off and affecting the players̢۪ vision? Is this a valid concern? It is a high school gymnasium so I could potentially be very close to the court if I get a good seat. Yes I did think about using the sports mode and will probably try it. I see that there is a no flash setting on the mode dial, but can I also stop the flash in the sports mode as well? The game is only 8 hrs away... :) |
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03/24/2005 03:17:07 PM · #7 |
Try out the mode BEFORE the game (i.e. what happens in a dark room?). I think the sports mode turns the flash off and changes to burst shooting.
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03/24/2005 03:23:51 PM · #8 |
Another thing to try (if your XT has it): My D60 has the AI servo mode for AF: it tracks the focus on moving objects keeping it locked all the time.
This should help with games, especially if the players do not move laterally, but towards you.
I hope this helps.
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03/24/2005 03:40:28 PM · #9 |
Just one trick that I've learned: set your iso at the maximum withought compromising image qualaty. At this point see what shutter speed for your apperture does your camera say. If your not happy with it, for example 1/125 instead of 1/500, go to shutter priority and set it to 1/500 and then compensate it in EV steps corresponding to the difference, in thsi case +2 EV.
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03/24/2005 03:47:25 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by p3wiz:
Try out the mode BEFORE the game (i.e. what happens in a dark room?). I think the sports mode turns the flash off and changes to burst shooting. |
you are spot on with this! I have my camera with me at work and just tried it and yes there is no flash in the sports mode. I will be going early enough to take some shoots during team warm-ups, however I'm still getting used to using the LCD for reviews and I don't understand the histogram yet :( thanks for your help!
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03/24/2005 03:51:59 PM · #11 |
| I assume you want frozen action, but if not then try some panning shots instead using multiburst. It's worth doing anyway as you can achieve some quite emotive looking images as opposed to the more typical freeze-frame approach. |
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03/24/2005 03:54:29 PM · #12 |
The only mode where you'll get the flash automatically is the full auto mode (or so I think)
Another thing to bring up here is histograms: just to get a good feeling, take three images, one too bright, one too dark, and one just right, open them up in PS and open level adjustment (it will have a histogram). Look at it and notice how the extremes will move from all the way to the right for lighter over the middle, to all the way to the left for darker images. That should help you - in addition to looking at the LCD.
You may also shoot RAW, and then you'll be able to adjust exposure, WB etc. later.
Good luck and hopefully you'll share some of your most successful shots after the game tonight! I'll be watching this thread to see how you did:-)
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
Originally posted by p3wiz:
Try out the mode BEFORE the game (i.e. what happens in a dark room?). I think the sports mode turns the flash off and changes to burst shooting. |
you are spot on with this! I have my camera with me at work and just tried it and yes there is no flash in the sports mode. I will be going early enough to take some shoots during team warm-ups, however I'm still getting used to using the LCD for reviews and I don't understand the histogram yet :( thanks for your help! |
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03/24/2005 04:02:50 PM · #13 |
| With Canon, the flash fires automatically in Manual as well...and since I've only ever used Auto and Manual they're the only two I can vouge for. |
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03/24/2005 05:23:33 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
I assume you want frozen action, but if not then try some panning shots instead using multiburst. It's worth doing anyway as you can achieve some quite emotive looking images as opposed to the more typical freeze-frame approach. |
This sounds fun, I'll give it a try thanks.
Originally posted by srdanz:
You may also shoot RAW, and then you'll be able to adjust exposure, WB etc. later.
Good luck and hopefully you'll share some of your most successful shots after the game tonight! I'll be watching this thread to see how you did:-) |
I could only afford a 1 gig card and I want to take as many pics as possible so unfortunately I will not be using RAW, also I'm a bit intimidated by the RAW setting because I've never used it before :) I need to get out more and start using and learning more...
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03/24/2005 08:02:04 PM · #15 |
RAW is not normally used for sports action type shooting, jpg is what the pros use. And we can't tell you exactly what settings to use because we don't know what the lighting is like in your gym. Some HS gyms are pretty dimly lit. I don't know what the aperture range of that lens is but I'd guess that it's widest aperture will give adequate DoF but this depends on how close to the action you are and whether you are zooming in for close up, or zooming out for full body shots. Basketball is mostly shot in portrait orientation. I would reccommend against Sports mode. You were on the right track in your original post. I think 250 is fast enough to stop the action but I have been using lenses with 1.8 and 2.8 aperture for basketball. I think the best course of action is to experiment and shoot lots of shots. When shooting bursts go a frame or two beyond where you think the action might stop. Sometimes missed shots lead to dramatic rebounds. Shots that show players faces are more interesting than the backs of heads. Don't be hesitant to use your flash if you want to. The players, coaches, and refs will let you know if they object. Look at your LCD when there is a break in the action to review your shots and make adjustments as needed. When you get home and look thru them the first time make sure you are using a program that will show the exposure settings on the screen along with the images, and see what settings worked best. And don't be surprised if half or more are not keepers. Basketball is a fun sport to photograph but the lighting can be very challenging. One pro sports shooter told me that if you can shoot HS basketball, you can shoot any sport.
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03/25/2005 05:20:37 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Good luck and hopefully you'll share some of your most successful shots after the game tonight! I'll be watching this thread to see how you did:-)
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Well just got home from the gameâ€Â¦ it is just after midnight so I will just post strait from the camera with no post processing. I don’t know how to link via thumbnail so you just have to look at my profile sorry but I’ve just became a member (Yeah!) it turned out to be way harder then I though it would have been. The good news is that I raced home just before the game and found a great surprise! The UPS guy dropped off my new 50mm f1.8! and thank goodness he did because using the 28-135 was very difficult for me :( I refrained from using my flash and it really showed. Shooting with the 28-135 IS USM left most of my images under exposed. And if there was enough light my lack of skills to hold the camera still just kill all the images :( I did get a couple of shots but not as many as I did with the 50mm. I was able to get down close to the court so the 50mm, I think, worked out better. Being so close to the court had its disadvantages too as other audience members keep walking right in front of me. (example in portfolio;) Thanks to all of you who took the time to give me your input for this and I look forward to any comments. Now off to sleep... |
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03/25/2005 05:35:26 AM · #17 |
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03/25/2005 09:31:25 AM · #18 |
Not bad at all for a first effort. The lighting in that gym isn't great, but it's good enough to produce decent basketball shots. I've shot in worse. 248 is probably the best of the ones you posted, with 212 and 214 right behind. You can make them a little brighter and sharper in post processing. 224 has "caught the moment" well, that might be the best shutter speed to use. When you are right on the edge for shutter speed you'll see motion blur in hands & feet but not in heads & bodies, as in the dribbler in 212. Try portrait, you've cut off feet and legs in some of these, while including unnecessary crowd at the sides. Basketball is a vertical sport. Getting closer to the court will help to convince people on their way to the concession stand to walk behind you. One thing you should have learned from this first attempt is that you don't have to use flash to shoot basketball.
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03/25/2005 09:45:24 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
With Canon, the flash fires automatically in Manual as well...and since I've only ever used Auto and Manual they're the only two I can vouge for. |
Ojn a 300D the flash will not fire in manual unless you pop it up manually. In Sports mode the flash is disabled and ISO is set at 400.
Back in the day (early 80s) i shot BB for my college newspaper - full manual camera in those days. ISO 800 and 1/250 should be fine - assuming you are somewhat close. I was allowed to run the court sides, almost always stayed at teh home team's end. Didn't have burst mode...didn't ahve PS to play with and still got pics. Flash was banned (NCAA rules at that time anyway) as it blinded/distracted the players and officials.
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03/25/2005 09:51:32 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Good luck and hopefully you'll share some of your most successful shots after the game tonight! I'll be watching this thread to see how you did:-)
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Well just got home from the gameâ€Â¦ it is just after midnight so I will just post strait from the camera with no post processing. I don’t know how to link via thumbnail so you just have to look at my profile sorry but I’ve just became a member (Yeah!) it turned out to be way harder then I though it would have been. The good news is that I raced home just before the game and found a great surprise! The UPS guy dropped off my new 50mm f1.8! and thank goodness he did because using the 28-135 was very difficult for me :( I refrained from using my flash and it really showed. Shooting with the 28-135 IS USM left most of my images under exposed. And if there was enough light my lack of skills to hold the camera still just kill all the images :( I did get a couple of shots but not as many as I did with the 50mm. I was able to get down close to the court so the 50mm, I think, worked out better. Being so close to the court had its disadvantages too as other audience members keep walking right in front of me. (example in portfolio;) Thanks to all of you who took the time to give me your input for this and I look forward to any comments. Now off to sleep... |
What shutter speed did you us? They look pretty good. The IS lens has an image stabilizer, but you still got camera shake? I see lots of DOF - less might be good as it would blur out the crowd, so you might have been able to open teh lens up more (depends on which lens is used on which pic) and more aperture would mean a higher shutter speed.
Most importantly, did you have fun? I am not much of a sports fan, and could care less about BB, but shotting the games was fun. I liked the women's games better as there was less crowd than at our men's games (back in the day my school had no football team, so men's BB was THE sport)
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03/25/2005 02:29:26 PM · #21 |
Thanks faidoi for the direct link :)
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not bad at all for a first effort. =snip= Try portrait, you've cut off feet and legs in some of these, while including unnecessary crowd at the sides. Basketball is a vertical sport. Getting closer to the court will help to convince people on their way to the concession stand to walk behind you. One thing you should have learned from this first attempt is that you don't have to use flash to shoot basketball. |
Thank you coolhar for taking the time and giving feedback, I appreciate it! I did think about moving up to the first row, court side, however it would seem as though that probably wouldn̢۪t have done much as people would walk out into the court to go around any obstacles to get by. I also felt that I like the height at the seat I was in. If I got closer to the court I would be sitting below the players just enough that it would be a weird angle, looking up at the players, I could be wrong.
A photog from the local paper was there with this Giant lens, so at halftime after he reviewed some of his shoots I just walked up to him and introduce myself. He was a very nice guy, he was using a Nikon D2H with a f2.8 lens. We talked for a bit and then the game started again. He didn̢۪t use a flash either. The D2H is huge, and when he looked at my xt he just commented on how small it was.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Good luck and hopefully you'll share some of your most successful shots after the game tonight! I'll be watching this thread to see how you did:-)
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Well just got home from the game... it turned out to be way harder then I though it would have been. Shooting with the 28-135 IS USM left most of my images under exposed. And if there was enough light my lack of skills to hold the camera still just killed all the images :( I did get a couple of shots but not as many as I did with the 50mm. I look forward to any comments. Now off to sleep... |
What shutter speed did you us? They look pretty good. The IS lens has an image stabilizer, but you still got camera shake? I see lots of DOF - less might be good as it would blur out the crowd, so you might have been able to open teh lens up more (depends on which lens is used on which pic) and more aperture would mean a higher shutter speed.
Most importantly, did you have fun? I am not much of a sports fan, and could care less about BB, but shotting the games was fun. I liked the women's games better as there was less crowd than at our men's games (back in the day my school had no football team, so men's BB was THE sport) |
As for the settings I used, I̢۪m fairly sure that I did every thing wrong in the Tv mode. I started out using the 28-135 because I thought I wanted to zoom in at fill the frame, however the 28-135 is very slow f3.5-5.6 and when I would use the zoom it would be very dark. I found that I had better results if I just use the sports mode. So when I put on the 50mm f1.8 I continued to use the spots mode. Thinking back I wished I tried going back to Tv mode with the 50mm but I lost confidence :( One of the obstacles that I was having trouble with in the sports mode was the spot focusing. It was very hard for me to frame what I wanted because most of the time there was nothing in the center to focus on so I got a lot of pics of the other side of the gym in focus instead of the players :( maybe in portrait like coolhar suggested the AI focus mode would work better. Wouldn̢۪t using all seven of the focus points be just as bad right, because then it would focus on the closest player? The closest player is not always what I want. Lots to learn... Well all in all yes I did have fun, and thanks again for all the input, Robert |
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03/25/2005 02:41:07 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
The IS lens has an image stabilizer, but you still got camera shake? |
IS doesn't work on moving subjects, only stationary, unless you have ISv2 (generally L-ranges) that supports unidirectional IS. For basketball IS would be practically useless.
For indoor sports like basketball I would use:
- ISO 800, possibly 1600
- Aperture priority, set between f/1.8 and f/3.2 (most likely f/2.2)
- A 50/1.8 or preferably 85/1.8
- -1/3 or -2/3 Ev (improves shutter just a little bit)
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03/25/2005 04:57:18 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
I also felt that I like the height at the seat I was in. If I got closer to the court I would be sitting below the players just enough that it would be a weird angle, looking up at the players, I could be wrong. |
That "wierd angle" is the one preferred by most pro sports shooters for BB, but you don't have to use it if you are not comfortable. What I like about it is that you get the ceiling, or the far reaches of the stands, for your background instead of the much closer front row of the crowd, makes for better background blur.
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
A photog from the local paper was there with this Giant lens, so at halftime after he reviewed some of his shoots I just walked up to him and introduce myself. He was a very nice guy, he was using a Nikon D2H with a f2.8 lens. We talked for a bit and then the game started again. He didn̢۪t use a flash either. The D2H is huge, and when he looked at my xt he just commented on how small it was. |
I was a bit intimidated by the equipment of the newspaper guys at my first few games. But you shouldn't let that bother you too much. Your XT has twice as many pixels as his D2H and your 50 1.8 is a faster lens. You can't match his 8 frames per second bursts but you can get good pics. Understand and use the advantages your camera has- 8mp means you don't have to frame your shots as precisely because you have more flexibility to crop while retaining adequate file size; and f1.8 gives you more options in selecting your settings.
Originally posted by the_Seeker:
As for the settings I used, I̢۪m fairly sure that I did every thing wrong in the Tv mode. I started out using the 28-135 because I thought I wanted to zoom in at fill the frame, however the 28-135 is very slow f3.5-5.6 and when I would use the zoom it would be very dark. I found that I had better results if I just use the sports mode. So when I put on the 50mm f1.8 I continued to use the spots mode. Thinking back I wished I tried going back to Tv mode with the 50mm but I lost confidence :( One of the obstacles that I was having trouble with in the sports mode was the spot focusing. It was very hard for me to frame what I wanted because most of the time there was nothing in the center to focus on so I got a lot of pics of the other side of the gym in focus instead of the players :( maybe in portrait like coolhar suggested the AI focus mode would work better. Wouldn̢۪t using all seven of the focus points be just as bad right, because then it would focus on the closest player? The closest player is not always what I want. Lots to learn... Well all in all yes I did have fun, and thanks again for all the input, Robert |
I'm holding back from making specific reccommendations about settings because it depends so much on available light; and because you seem to understand the relationship between aperture, shutter speed and ISO. But here's a couple of suggestions for your next game-
-Stick with your 50mm until you feel like you've mastered it for BB. Not having to zoom, or to change lenses means less variables to think about during the action.
-Use all your focus points for one half; and then switch to center only for the other half. Analyze which worked best when you are reviewing them at home. The software that came with my 20D will show which focus point the camera used; that is a big help in learning about focus points. I would guess that the XT has the same feature.
-Try to get down on the sideline and shoot portrait some. My favorite spot is on the end line where the 3 pt arc meets it, a few feet out of bounds. Maybe this will work for you- wait until it's almost halftime and move to where the guy with D2H is shooting, say something to him like "Hope you don't mind if I shoot from here, let me know if I'm in your way". The worst that can happen is he'll tell you to get back in the stands where you belong, and if you time it right it'll be halftime before he can get a security guard to run you off. If the guy is cool with it, come back to the same spot a few minutes before the next half starts and see what happens. Most of the newspaper guys are easy to get along with as long as you acknowledge they have a higher right to be there and let them know that you are trying to stay out of their way.
Most important thing is that you are enjoying your new cam, second is that you can't help but learn as you gain more experience and confidence.
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03/25/2005 05:21:22 PM · #24 |
Shoot at either iso 400 or 800. Shoot in manual mode at your widest aperture and 1/250" on the shutter. Use the Canon 420ex or 550ex flash with the flash exposure backed down to about -2/3 stop.
The 50mm lens may or may not work based on where you are shooting from. It's definitely too long for most action under the basket from the baseline. The depth of field may also be too shallow with that lens for any action that is close to you. I run into depth of field problems when I shoot from the baseline at f/2.8, so I find myself backing off to f/4.0 in many cases. |
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03/25/2005 05:44:05 PM · #25 |
I know the 300D was pretty bad at ISO 800 but I think the XT might be closer to the 20D wich is quite good at ISO 3200 :)
just a thought.. [/quote]
Depends on print size
here strait from camera resize for web
ISO 1600
Shuter 200
F-stop 4.5
Canon 70-300
Flash 550 ex
and donnt forget you have neatimage
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