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 03/20/2005 11:38:12 PM · #26
Originally posted by RonB:
One of Terri's nurse's sworn affidavit


That's interesting, very compelling!
 03/20/2005 11:49:53 PM · #27
Suppose that you are in this situation. Consider, you are aware, but there is a disconnect between brain and the motor system. There is a possibility and yes it is remote, but there is a possibility that you may come out. Well, place yourself in those shoes and tell me who should decide if you live or die? If you consider all the available data there is no hard evidence that death under these circumstances is desired by the recipient. I think the judge should have withheld final dispostion while the flurry of activity persisted.

My personal opinion is to favor life over death. What if it were you and you left no written wishes. What would you like? There is nothing you can do. You are totally helpless and at the hands of providence. Is life not paramount?
 03/21/2005 12:29:50 AM · #28
graphicfunk,

I won't presume that you were addressing me directly with your last question; however, if you were, I've already made my personal preference clear in my previous post. If you didn't read, I'll repost it here:

Originally posted by bdobe:
I agree with Jacko, I need to get a living will and make it perfectly clear that I would not want to be kept alive for 15 years in such a devastating, artificial and inhumane way. Moreover, my living will would make it perfectly clear that whomever my spouse is at that time, she'd be completely free to continue with her life, as best she can, and how she sees fit -- after all, love is about wishing all the best and happiness for those we marry. I frankly would not want to impose nor burden my future spouse with any unduly prolonged and selfish suffering -- 15 years is enough. Finally, given that this is such a tragic and extremely personal situation, I'm dismayed that the federal government sees it fit to inject itself into it. The government's decision to step in, to my mind, makes this situation doubly tragic for ALL involved.


As for the continued attacks on the husband, I frankly don't understand how such insensitive and offensive accusations are so wantonly made. It's interesting how there seems to be a need, by some, to vilify and tear people down.

One point, on the affidavit, why didn't the witness indicate whether she had provided a sworn testimony or not? This part of the document appears to be intentionally left blank -- very suspicious.
 03/21/2005 12:31:44 AM · #29
In my opinion, the world is making a HUGE deal out of what should be a private family matter. If a member of my family were in the same situation, I would be mortified with the fact that the whole world was siding for and against I and different members of my family. Like their choices as we see them in the media or not, if we don't know the individual situation and all the aspects of it on a personal level, it isn't really our place to decide what we think ought to be done. Leave that for the family and the courts in which they make the case a part of. For that reson, I'm not going to say what I think the outcome of this individual situation should be.

As for if anything should happen to myself, I will leave that up for my parents to decide prior to my marriage, and I trust their decisions there completly. I have discussed this with my fiancee and if something should happen to me after my marriage, I requested (and he agreed without hesitation) that a decision as to my fate would be made only after much prayer, much medical counsel, and much discussion with my parents and sister (only sibling). Fortunaltly, they all have the same ideas as to what reasonable means and under which circumstances my life should be prolonged with outside intervention.
I told him, "Hey, If I'm not going be Annette at any level or trace ever again (as in no brain activity, except reflexive reactions to stimuli), and the only thing keeping me alive and ever will is tubing, then don't hold me back from Heaven any longer."
He said, "Okay, but if there's any chance that someday I can come into a room and present you with even a yellow rubber ducky, and that will make your day, make a grin cross your face, then you're gonna stick around with me a little longer. I'll be at your side happy to be able to do so every minute that I can." He reminded me again that no decision as to my fate would be made without great amounts of prayer and consultation with doctors and my family.
I let him know that I couldn't think of a better plan.

I can't say 'do this' or 'do that' to any case that I'm not a direct part of, because there's no way that I would have all the facts to the extent that I could make the wisest possible decision, or even imput the wisest information. Yeah, I may have heard facts from here or there, but do I know the people involved, the cridibility of their claims, etc. Do I know what facts are being witheld? NO--and those witheld ones are often the most important! So am I going to give you my opinionion on what the fate of this person ought to be which I've not seen but in the media (famous for playing on biases)? No.

Whats your take on what I had to say? I'm curious to know if I made any sense to anyone besides myself. That last sentence sounded snide. It wasn't. I just want to know if anything I had to say hit anyone, good, bad, or otherwise.

-Annette

Message edited by author 2005-03-21 00:34:29.
 03/21/2005 12:37:56 AM · #30
Annette,

You're perfectly reasonable, and wrote very eloquently on the issue. I agree, this is a sensitive personal matter on which, we, John Q. Public, should not be poking our noses into. It's terribly unfair to cast judgments on people and their motives... the situation is painful enough without half the world stepping in; and, now, with the backing of the federal government -- this is a terrible mistake.
 03/21/2005 12:42:46 AM · #31
I just hope that maybe all this going back and forth like a ping pong ball that people will realize the importance of how you want to things to be in a situation like this... I don't like the idea of giving up that hope but I also don't like to see one living depending on the tubes and machines for survival.... Its surely gonna change things in the medical practice... Probably something that has to be changed so this must be one of those "things always happen for a reason..." In any case I hope they will just find peace for the lady so she wont be the middle stretchy between the two sides. They could just cut her in half and each party do what they want to do you know..
I guess this is just a story on the media has really blown up and talk about to much showing the same video clips of her.. Its kind of worse then seeing flag draped coffins because where is her respect as an individual... Its like a circus am I right?
 03/21/2005 12:47:35 AM · #32
Originally posted by tolovemoon:
I just hope that maybe all this going back and forth like a ping pong ball that people will realize the importance of how you want to things to be in a situation like this... I don't like the idea of giving up that hope but I also don't like to see one living depending on the tubes and machines for survival.... Its surely gonna change things in the medical practice... Probably something that has to be changed so this must be one of those "things always happen for a reason..." In any case I hope they will just find peace for the lady so she wont be the middle stretchy between the two sides. They could just cut her in half and each party do what they want to do you know..
I guess this is just a story on the media has really blown up and talk about to much showing the same video clips of her.. Its kind of worse then seeing flag draped coffins because where is her respect as an individual... Its like a circus am I right?


Absolutely, the mainstream media, and now the federal government, have taken a terribly painful situation and turned into another "OJ Simpson made for TV" event. I don't know how anyone thinks that this is advancing any cause or finally bringing peace to her poor family, husband, friends and, ultimately, her. Too sad, really.
 03/21/2005 12:52:35 AM · #33
Bdobe:

Personally, I want no extension of my life by any sort of life saving equipment or artificial means of support of any kind, including food. But you see, that is me. That is my feeling and personal judgement.

However, I can not decide with equal peace of mind for another human being. I have known people who have awaken from such conditions.

My arguement here is not with you or anybody else of opposing view. As you note, the circumstance is not really for us lesser gods to decide who lives and who dies. As I type this I hear her groans on the radio. There is awareness. Anybody wants to kill it, go ahead. I rather stay favoring on the side of life.
 03/21/2005 12:53:43 AM · #34
Originally posted by bdobe:
It's really interesting how those that feel a certain way about this situation are going after the husband. I'm curious, because this line of attack against the husband's character is not something I've seen before in the mainstream media coverage that I've read on this case. Now, granted, I get most of my information from print media (on and off-line), and don't subscribe to cable and don't watch much TV. So, I'm curious, those that have posted against the husband, and that question his motives and character, where are you guys getting this information? Now, I don't think that going after the husband is relevant, but I'd be curious to know of the source of the attacks.


The husband's character is an issue when he is suppose to be doing what is in her best interest. I have following this case closely since I found out about it as well. He sued and won. Part of sueing for the amount was so that he could go to school and become a nurse and take care of her.....now....if that is the case then why is it that later on (when things are 'for worse) he magically comes up with she said she didn't want to live this way? This makes so sense unless it had been done from the beginning. His character also being an issue has to do with him starting a family while still married to Terri....this does not appear to be someone that is doing what is in the best interest of his wife. Can I judge? No....but all life is sacred. Should something of this nature (God forbid) happen to my mother, my children, my fiancee'....I would do the same...it's what we're suppose to do....as human beings....as family....take care of one another. Think of it....your mother....father (as mentioned above)....your child.....are you going to pull that plug? I'm not.

I apologize if I offended anyone....I just wanted you to know that I think all life is important.....
 03/21/2005 01:06:34 AM · #35
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by bdobe:
It's really interesting how those that feel a certain way about this situation are going after the husband. I'm curious, because this line of attack against the husband's character is not something I've seen before in the mainstream media coverage that I've read on this case. Now, granted, I get most of my information from print media (on and off-line), and don't subscribe to cable and don't watch much TV. So, I'm curious, those that have posted against the husband, and that question his motives and character, where are you guys getting this information? Now, I don't think that going after the husband is relevant, but I'd be curious to know of the source of the attacks.


The Big Question

One of Terri's nurse's sworn affidavit


Thank you for the links, RonB. I was just thinking the other day where I could find some more information on UFOs, the worldwide Zionist conspiracy, the World Trade Center Conspiracy, the lies behind the Holocaust and the truth about Chemtrails. It's handy to have that information in one place, including Bigfoot even. I personally can't wait to read about when Jesus walked in Japan. I hadn't known.
 03/21/2005 01:17:36 AM · #36
I love and trust my husband very much, if he wanted to watch me like that for the rest fo his life so be it, if he wanted to let me go then I would be fine with that too. It seems to me that she is in some sort of limbo stuck between life and death, I guess this is a great example as to why we should have a living will. On the other hand I took care of a brain dead boy for 2 years he was born that way and having taken care of him and being a parent myself I could not imagiane just giving up and letting my child die. The boy I took care of had to wear diapers, had to be tube fed and all he could so was scream. I became attached to him and I could not imagiane just letting him starve to death. Also my twins were born 3 months pre mature weighing 2lbs each and had to be tube feed till they were 32 weeks old, No way in hell would I have just told them to stop feeding them no would I have gave up on there making it, they had a 20% chance survival rate there scores were 3, they had holes in there heart, pre mature blove vessels in there eyes, week lungs, and translusent skin yet I never even allowed myself to beleive anything except that they were going to make it, and I am glad I did not give up as they are now 16 months old and fully recovered except that they are the size of a average 9 month old, they walk talk and are actually considered very advanced even compared to normally develpoed children.

ok so there is my rare rambel.

Thanks, Saradee

It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
 03/21/2005 01:27:17 AM · #37
the house passed theSchiavo Bill

I agree with Catbird, it's none of our business or the government's. heh...and now it's up to Bush of all people.

It's a sad story.
 03/21/2005 02:13:51 AM · #38
I don't want to be insensitive but why is Congress getting involve with this case and the steroids case? Probably be another rant.

If the parents want her alive then let it be.
 03/21/2005 02:24:43 AM · #39
I tried hard not to weigh in on this but.....

While everyone is trying to vilify the husband I have a few facts and then one question:

Facts:
Six judges over 15 years have ruled in favor of the husband̢۪s position on this. The guardian-ad-lidum (sp) (court appointed and not representing either side) has written a 50 page brief for the courts that states, in part, that she is in a vegetative state with no hope for recovery and includes all the doctors who have treated her as in agreement. The USA is a country made up of laws by constitution. The Judicial branch has ruled multiple times on this. The federal courts have refused to hear the case. Now, our Senate and House (the Legislative branch), with obvious political reason, has intervened in a judicial matter. Our President (the Executive branch), with obvious political reason, has also intervened by signing the bill.

Is anyone else out there worried that we have now moved to a nation of men and politics and away from a nation of law?

03/21/2005 03:21:06 AM · #40
How important a factor is quality of life to the question at heart? Or is absolutism the only item that some people care about? That is, quality of life doesn't matter, as long as her body can be maintained functioning by any artificial means necessary. And, of course, there's the other issue, how much intrusion by the federal government should we permit into what is an extremely personal matter, best resolved by the immediate parties involved?

Finally, do keep in mind that the only reason why certain groups (in the federal government and elsewhere) are focusing so intently on this one case is because they belive that they can score political points -- given the "circus" they've created around what should've been a private matter. This, unfortunately, is the sad truth.

For instance, note that while other cases (i.e., 03.15.05 - Texas infant removed from life support with backing of Texas law) are ignored by the federal government and the media, Shivo's tragedy garnered a special Congressional session. Again, the only reason why this occurred is because the party in control of Congress believes they can politicize the issue, and thereby score political points with their supporters. Back to the Texas law mentioned above, Texas Futile Care Law, the law was signed into the books by then governor George W Bush (after reaching a compromise and in consultation with the National Right to Life organization -- [article]).

Interestingly, at the heart of the Texas Futile Care Law, cited above, is this rationale:

"(e) If the patient or the person responsible for the health care decisions of the patient is requesting life-sustaining treatment that the attending physician has decided and the review process has affirmed is inappropriate treatment, the patient shall be given available life-sustaining treatment pending transfer under Subsection (d). The patient is responsible for any costs incurred in transferring the patient to another facility. The physician and the health care facility are not obligated to provide life-sustaining treatment after the 10th day after the written decision required under Subsection (b) is provided to the patient or the person responsible for the health care decisions of the patient unless ordered to do so under Subsection (g)."

In other words, if the patient can't afford to pay for treatment, and if no other hospital is available to take the patient, the hospital can seek to refuse treatment -- including life support. (Which is exactly what's occurring in this other Texas case.) Now, if the party in control of Congress and of the White House truly cared about the issue, and not merely about scoring political points with their supporters, why aren't they calling for special sessions to step into this and other cases as well?
 03/21/2005 04:42:40 AM · #41
In my opinion, the world is making a HUGE deal out of what should be a private family matter.

THEN; I suppose if one man were to kill another it should be a personal matter as well to remain only between the two of them. We should all just mind our own business right.
 03/21/2005 05:23:11 AM · #42
In looking at this case, it seems to me that there are a couple of issues that make this something other than a "private, family affair", and they are linked.

First, of course, is the fact that Terry Shiavo's blood family are being cut out of the decision-making process here, and they feel, essentially, that Terri's husband is trying to murder her. From their perspective, the "state" has been giving him permission to do this. Supporting their position is testimony that Terri, in fact, is (or was) NOT in a completely vegetative state (see in particular the nurse's affidavit) and that Terri's condition when she was first admitted into the health care system seems to contraindicate any sort of heart failure and point, instead, towards a possible attempt at strangulation or suffocation.

That the courts have thus far ruled in favor of the husband is neither here nor there, IMO. Has anyone noticed how difficult it is to get a convicted muderer EXECUTED in this country? Even if he WANTS to be executed? That's strangely at odds with this case, where Terri has a loving family who desperately want to keep her alive, who believe that she is aware of what's happening to her, and are outraged that this man she married is keeping them from having any say in the matter. From their perspective, the courts are condoning, even encouraging, murder.

I don't know what the "true" facts of the case are. But I do see sufficient evidence/testimony to cause me to wonder "why is Terri's husband so adamant that she die?" He could divorce her, this would not be a problem, and leave her fate in the hands of her family. That's certainly what I would do if I were in his position, given what a mess this has turned into. I don't udnerstand why he's fighting them, really.

Myabe I'm missing something.

Robt.
 03/21/2005 08:07:39 AM · #43
Originally posted by milo655321:
Are willing to stand by your statement that Mr. Shiavo's motivations must be monetary?


Well if it's not money, and it's not love, then what is the problem? He obviously went on with his life years ago with a new woman and children. Why prevent her parents from taking care of her if that's what they want to do and he doesn't want the responsibility? She was their daughter before he married her, and she's still their daughter even if she is divorced from him. Yeah, he cared for her for a long time and visited her in the nursing home and all that, but when he chose to have a family with another woman he should have formally ended his relationship with Terri. I don't care how much money is offered to him at this point, he wouldn't take it because he knows what the public would think about his decision. He is the one that should have let go, and a long time ago at that.
03/21/2005 08:25:41 AM · #44
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by bdobe:
It's really interesting how those that feel a certain way about this situation are going after the husband. I'm curious, because this line of attack against the husband's character is not something I've seen before in the mainstream media coverage that I've read on this case. Now, granted, I get most of my information from print media (on and off-line), and don't subscribe to cable and don't watch much TV. So, I'm curious, those that have posted against the husband, and that question his motives and character, where are you guys getting this information? Now, I don't think that going after the husband is relevant, but I'd be curious to know of the source of the attacks.


The Big Question

One of Terri's nurse's sworn affidavit


Thank you for the links, RonB. I was just thinking the other day where I could find some more information on UFOs, the worldwide Zionist conspiracy, the World Trade Center Conspiracy, the lies behind the Holocaust and the truth about Chemtrails. It's handy to have that information in one place, including Bigfoot even. I personally can't wait to read about when Jesus walked in Japan. I hadn't known.


William asked a question. I provided an answer. I did not endorse the content of the links; in fact avoided comment on both the content and the case entirely. Yet you seem to feel obligated to attack me personally for posting the links that William requested. Why?
 03/21/2005 08:31:43 AM · #45
On the political hypocracy of it all
( adapted from DailyKos):

....George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas **just this week.**

A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

...Republicans have voted en masse to pull the plug (no pun intended) on medicaid funding that pays for the kind of care that someone like Terry Schiavo and many others who are not so severely brain damaged need all across this country.

....The tort reform that is being contemplated by the Republican congress would preclude malpractice claims like that which has paid for Terry Schiavo's care thus far.

...the bankruptcy bill will make it even more difficult for families who suffer a catastrophic illness like Terry Schiavo's because they will not be able to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the gargantuan medical bills become overwhelming.

....this grandstanding by the congress is a purely political move designed to appease the religious right and that the legal maneuverings being employed would be anathema to any true small government conservative.
---------------------------------------------
ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the "pro-life base will be excited," and that it is a "great political issue -- this is a tough issue for Democrats."

And,

What the Husband said yesterday:

Schiavo: 'Come down, President Bush'
By WILLIAM R. LEVESQUE, Times Staff Writer
Published March 20, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PINELLAS PARK - Angered by the latest political developments in Washington, Michael Schiavo said Saturday that it isn't just the Florida governor who should visit his wife to learn about the case.

Jeb Bush's brother, President Bush, should visit Terri Schiavo, too, he said.

"Come down, President Bush," Schiavo said in a telephone interview. "Come talk to me. Meet my wife. Talk to my wife and see if you get an answer. Ask her to lift her arm to shake your hand. She won't do it."

She won't, Schiavo said, because she can't.

He made a similar offer to the governor last week, saying lawmakers interferring in his wife's life know nothing about the case. So far, Gov. Bush hasn't responded to the offer.

President Bush has indicated he will sign any federal legislation to keep Terri Schiavo alive.

Weary after an emotional visit with his wife, Schiavo said he is astonished that politicians want to interfere in such a private matter.

"Instead of worrying about my wife, who was granted her wishes by the state courts the past seven years, they should worry about the pedophiles killing young girls," Schiavo said, referring to a local case. "Why doesn't Congress worry about people not having health insurance? Or the budget? Let's talk about all the children who don't have homes."

He said U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who is leading a charge to extend Terri Schiavo's life, is a "little slithering snake" pandering for votes.

"To make comments that Terri would want to live, how do they know?" Schiavo said of the members of Congress who want to keep his wife alive.

"Have they ever met her?" Schiavo said. "What color are her eyes? What's her middle name? What's her favorite color? They don't have any clue who Terri is. They should all be ashamed of themselves."

Schiavo said he was going to stay at his wife's side through the entire ordeal and said he wouldn't back down in his fight to have her wishes carried out.

"Terri died 15 years ago," Schiavo said, referring to the collapse and cardiac arrest that doctors say virtually destroyed her brain. "It's time for her to be with the Lord like she wanted to be."

03/21/2005 08:59:45 AM · #46
Originally posted by RonB:
William asked a question. I provided an answer. I did not endorse the content of the links; in fact avoided comment on both the content and the case entirely. Yet you seem to feel obligated to attack me personally for posting the links that William requested. Why?


I'm sorry. I've reread my post and I failed to see in the post where I attacked you personally. Perhaps you could point that place out to me.

Are you saying that you find a number contents of the website you linked less than credible but you're willing to post a link to said website as if the information contained therein were wholly accurate and fit for distribution?
 03/21/2005 09:34:06 AM · #47
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by RonB:
William asked a question. I provided an answer. I did not endorse the content of the links; in fact avoided comment on both the content and the case entirely. Yet you seem to feel obligated to attack me personally for posting the links that William requested. Why?


I'm sorry. I've reread my post and I failed to see in the post where I attacked you personally. Perhaps you could point that place out to me.

Are you saying that you find a number contents of the website you linked less than credible but you're willing to post a link to said website as if the information contained therein were wholly accurate and fit for distribution?

Certainly,
You start off your post with the words "Thank you for the links, RonB" and then go on to attach sarcastic commentary on other "links" about conspiracy theories as though to imply that I'm endorsing something similar.
As to the content - while I may, indeed, find "some" of the contents of the website I linked to less than credible, William did not ask for "credible" accounts, he only said that he was curious as to the source of some of the attacks ( against Michael Schiavo ). I posted a couple of links to "sources" of the attacks in direct response to his question. Credible or not, the links I posted are, indeed, sources that have influenced some folks and are therefore legitimate as answers to William's request.
If William has asked for sources about why some people believe in UFO's, those links would also be legitimate, again, credible or not.
 03/21/2005 10:19:53 AM · #48
Re: the quality of life issue.

What is "quality" of life. Right now, I have what I feel is a quality life. I'm healthy (albeit a bit overweight), live in a nice house, drive a decent car, etc. etc. What if someday that was all gone. Suddenly, I find myself crippled, no home, no car, no income. What i feel is quality is gone. Kill me?
 03/21/2005 10:24:29 AM · #49
Originally posted by karmat:
Re: the quality of life issue.

What is "quality" of life. Right now, I have what I feel is a quality life. I'm healthy (albeit a bit overweight), live in a nice house, drive a decent car, etc. etc. What if someday that was all gone. Suddenly, I find myself crippled, no home, no car, no income. What i feel is quality is gone. Kill me?


Being without material things is a far cry from being in a vegetative stupor for 15 years.
 03/21/2005 10:27:13 AM · #50
Which is why I purposely included my health. ;)
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