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03/11/2005 10:39:36 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Oddly enough, I feel the exact opposite; for me, the themed challenges are perhaps technically somewhat more demanding but they do not stimulate me artistically for the most part. They are exercises is creative problem solving, not in "creation". Free studies, for me, allow me to go off on any tangent that strikes my fancy, and they "free" the artist in me. |
...Aren't you saying that what is proposed in the thread, and which stikres your fancy, is more desirable than what we already have in the normal weekly challenges? My perception is that if such a valuation became the norm, we would lose something from what dpc has been in the past. That's not a threat to me, but to the site, the ongoing community.
It is precisely because you have so "unsparingly" immersed yourself into the community that I have no trouble at all in taking you at your word when you say you love the site. Don't get hung up on my tone, which you take exception to, or any perceived disrespect to you as a person. Anyone who enters into a marriage with the intent of changing a spouse into something they are not will eventually fail. You must understand and accept your partner for what it is to succeed. As I said before- "if you love this site, please help fight to preserve it." |
[Ommissions mine]
Harvey,
bear's words (the ones you quote here) are qualified personal opinion. Note the qualifiers: I feel, for me, in me. Even the absolutes are softened: perhaps, for the most part, allow me etc. The statement is quite sensitively phrased, and IMO, deserves to be read that way.
As to your analogy, I believe a marriage may be strengthened by change and by allowing it to evolve. Most of what we preserve is dead.
By all means disagree, but please, leave a little sway for those you disagree with.
Message edited by author 2005-03-11 22:40:48.
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03/11/2005 11:03:16 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
As to your analogy, I believe a marriage may be strengthened by change and by allowing it to evolve. |
The union is strengthened if the change is mutually agreable, a true evolution; but not if one's will is enforced upon the other.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Most of what we preserve is dead. |
Perhaps we should move to preserve it sooner.
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03/11/2005 11:18:49 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
As to your analogy, I believe a marriage may be strengthened by change and by allowing it to evolve. |
The union is strengthened if the change is mutually agreable, a true evolution; but not if one's will is enforced upon the other.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Most of what we preserve is dead. |
Perhaps we should move to preserve it sooner. |
â€Â¢ No force I could detect was employed via bear's words and sense.
â€Â¢ Why treat something which is alive and well as if it is dead already?
Assuming your stance and point is meritable and justified, allow some varying views. I'm not asking more than this.
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03/11/2005 11:23:23 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
[quote=zeuszen]As to your analogy, I believe a marriage may be strengthened by change and by allowing it to evolve.
The union is strengthened if the change is mutually agreable, a true evolution; but not if one's will is enforced upon the other.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been reading this tread carefully, and I never had the impression that Robt was trying to "enforced" his will upon ours.
Alain
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03/12/2005 12:14:37 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by kirbic:
@ bear_music:
Personally, I agree wholeheartedly. And since this community continues to grow, "losing votes" to a free study isn't as big a deal. In the days when we only got 120-150 votes per image, it was a big deal. |
...but losing comments is, and we have seen that comments per image runs inversely to number of entries up for voting, especially during Free Studies.
EDITED TO ADD: I want to make it clear that I very much like Free Studies, and I want them to continue -- but my opinion is they should continue to be an occasional and somewhat randomly occuring treat, not a regularly-scheduled occurrence.
-Terry |
I think a month for the shot, a month to vote and make a comment shouldn't strain the system to much. In fact having a whole month to vote and comment might actually get us more comments.
Message edited by author 2005-03-12 00:16:24. |
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03/12/2005 04:17:00 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
The union is strengthened if the change is mutually agreable, a true evolution; but not if one's will is enforced upon the other. |
I'm sorry, but I simply fail to see where bear_music has attempted to enforce his will upon anyone, here or elsewhere. He has offered his opionins and suggestions, in a venue designed for opinions and suggestions, in a tone that frames them clearly as nothing more than his own opinions and suggestions. Several of your posts, however, do include statements phrased in such a way as to appear to enforce your will on others. While I don't think this is your intention, please do understand that at least to me, some of them read that way.
With that said, if the two of you wish to continue discussion of the tone of your posts, please take it to PM so we can preserve this thread for the topic at hand.
Thanks,
-Terry
Message edited by author 2005-03-12 04:17:35.
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03/12/2005 04:57:28 AM · #32 |
I know I've only been here a short time, but can I make a suggestion?
If there's no regular free study as part of the challenges, what about an informal free study challenge run via the forums. The originator would start a thread asking for entries of photos shot within, say, the last month. Anyone wishing to enter would post their photo in the thread. The originator of the thread would act as judge and pick the winner at a set date from the thread first appearing and the winner would get the (perhaps dubious) honour of beginning and judging the next one. If, for instance, the entry period is a month, then I don't see that detracting too much from the regular challenges.
Such a thing goes on in (dare I mention them) the forums at DPReview, although most I've seen are on a set topic.
Anyway, like I said, it's only a suggestion.
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03/12/2005 05:16:13 AM · #33 |
To those of you arguing over tone - please take it to private messages. Neither one of you has single handed control over the direction of the site. You are both entitled to your opinions and at liberty to post them. If your opinion doesn't match somebody else's just suck it up.
Regarding the matter at hand - I can see why people would be worried about a free study taking votes away from the directed challenges. There are a couple of possible solutions. I think my favourite solution would be to insert a free study into the challenge rotation so, say, every 4th member challenge was a free study. Also the free study challenges should allow any picture taken since the closing date of the previous free study. Voting times and submission times should remain at 1 week.
John
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03/12/2005 05:29:29 AM · #34 |
Well amidst all this controversy my opinion is fairly simple, there should be frequent free studies, unpredictably spaced and timed - I think we should aim for around half-a-dozen a year. It would be fairly easy to combat the expected 'cheats' by randomising the emergence of these free studies - what is to stop us from having a free study that runs for a fortnight, or one that goes from the 12th of one month to the 12th of the next. A combination of unpredicatble dates, periods and proximity to each other would overcome the potential for cheating (to a large extent anyway) while allowing us to have free studies more frequently than 2 or 3 times a year.
While I do believe that a monthly free study would detract from the challenge element of the site (and thus wouldn't recommend that), I have found that my photography has become a little challenge centric, - for example, if none of the challenges in a particular week appeal to me then I'm far less inclined to go out and shoot just for the hell of it (which is unfortunate and definately something I've consciously tried to change). Given that for many of us dpc is the only means of obtaining unbiased and relatively informed feedback I get the feeling that there are quite a few here who've experienced the same phenomenon.
Message edited by author 2005-03-12 05:33:29. |
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03/12/2005 12:54:42 PM · #35 |
My response--
Complaining about someone's tone, or trying to put words into someone's mouth and then saying those words were inaccurate, only divert attention from the original thrust of the thread; and evade the points that the undesirably-toned voice is trying to put forward. Telling people to take their discourse to PMs instead of using the forums only works if PMs are a viable two way communication. What sense does it make to tell someone to take it to PMs when the person doing the telling doesn't answer your PMs?
I have neither sent nor received any PMs with Robt. But I did send a PM to a SC member (who had posted in this thread) about the topic of this thread, with a suggestion about Free Study challenges. That SC member has not responded to me. But I am pretty sure they normally do receive my PMs as I have conversed with them via PM many times in the past. And I am pretty sure that SC member has checked their inbox in the interim because they have acknowledged receiveing messages from another user about an unrelated matter.
And I sent a PM to ClubJuggle about a week ago (about something similiar to the things that have come up in this thread, but not about the topic here) which he has not responded to. Nor did he answer me when, a day or two later, I asked in the forums if he had received it.
So Terry, how do you want it, in the forums or in PMs? Your choice, I'll try either because I want my message to be heard, not my tone but my message. But please don't tell me to use the PMs if you aren't going to respond when I send a PM to you. Please look past my tone in this next sentence. That strikes me as sort of hypocritical, and unbecoming of someone in a position of leadership in this community.
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03/12/2005 12:54:54 PM · #36 |
My Position on Free Study challenges--
I like them. I've been very pleased with the scores I've earned in the ones I've entered. But they are not really challenges. They are photo contests restricted only by the editing rules. And while they may allow you to use your imagination, to let your creative juices flow, they are not as good a tool for learning as the themed challenges we have each week. A theme forces entrants to focus on a particular skill, or subject, often in an area they have not explored previously. A clear understanding of this distinction by all concerned might help stop the gradual drift away from tightly constructed themes. If you can think of dpc as school, the weekly challenges are your homework assignments, the free studies are after school activities.
Some challenge topics turn out to be little more than free studies if the topic, with it details, are too general; and if people don't try to stick to the topic. Surrealism is a good example of a themed challenge that really was a free study. Look at the entries, they is a very wide gamut of types and styles. Almost anything can be termed surreal by it's maker. Finding a forum voice sympathetic to your interpretation of the topic is not a good substitute for making a sincere attempt to meet the challenge. I wish people would understand the difference, and work to keep the community pointed in the educational direction.
It is upsetting to me to see posts advocating free studies for the purpose of attracting newcomers, retaining those already here, or to convince registered users to pay up and become full members. I don't think free studies are the purpose of dpc; and the people that will come, stay, or pay solely because of them are not the target of dpc's intent.
I think it would be a very good thing for this community if our leadership would do more to promote an understanding of the difference between free studies and themed challenges.
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03/12/2005 12:55:09 PM · #37 |
My Proposal for a Quarterly Free Study--
There would be a regular Quarterly Free Study every calendar quarter.
The QFS would be a competition for members only.
The QFS would be restricted only by the editing rules, no theme or topic. There would be a special rule to change size limits to max width of 800 pixels, max height of 640. (File size limit is unchanged.) This is not intended to be a first step toward changing the size limit for other challenges, but rather as a way to set the QFS apart from them.
The QFS would be open for the entire calendar quarter, for any image taken during that quarter; images entered in the QFS may not be entered in other dpc challenges except a possible best-of-the-year type competition.
The QFS would close at midnight on the last day of the quarter regardless of which day of the week that falls on; and have a 20 day voting period that would not coincide with the voting period of other challenges.
The QFS would normally be run under Advanced Rules; and occasionally (but not predictably) be run under Basic Rules.
The QFS would award the same prizes as weekly challenges, it's scores and stats would be combined with all others.
Thanks for reading this far. I'm outta here. Because of my work I've been tied to the keyboard all week. My work is done and it's the weekend, so Harvey is going to go out and play with his cameras. No more posts from me until AA scores are up.
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03/12/2005 04:51:28 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
... If you can think of dpc as school, the weekly challenges are your homework assignments, the free studies are after school activities. ... |
In the vein of a school metaphor, a quarterly free study seems more of a term final. The free studies are very much a part of the learning process here.
After spending 3 months interiorized into topic challenges (learning of Lines, Surrealism, etc.) it is good to pull back and have a avenue to showcase and measure how all this learning has benefitted your ability. The free study image may not be in the vein of recent topic challenges, but having participated in them provides the opportunity to learn skills that will aid in any photograph.
Originally posted by coolhar:
... It is upsetting to me to see posts advocating free studies for the purpose of attracting newcomers, retaining those already here, or to convince registered users to pay up and become full members. I don't think free studies are the purpose of dpc; and the people that will come, stay, or pay solely because of them are not the target of dpc's intent. ... |
I find the lack of regular free studies to be a loss for those that have spent time here -- it is a shame the long term members must go elsewhere to showcase and metric the progress they obtain here.
Sure there are those who stop participating in the themed challenges. But I doubt once a quarter free studies would increase that number significantly -- It is my view that they would give the balance that keeps long-term participation viable, for all skill levels.
As for those who would join simply for a quarterly free study -- well, I just don't think they would be freaquent enough to pull very many in.
Originally posted by coolhar:
... There would be a special rule to change size limits to max width of 800 pixels, max height of 640. (File size limit is unchanged.) This is not intended to be a first step toward changing the size limit for other challenges, but rather as a way to set the QFS apart from them. ... |
I don't like this part. It has been observed in several previous threads that larger images score better. Some have taken it to the extreme of always (or nearly so) using square crops so their image is as large as possible. Setting the maximum size to a landscape crop will be detrimental to anyone who posts a portrait cropped image.
Originally posted by coolhar:
... The QFS would normally be run under Advanced Rules; and occasionally (but not predictably) be run under Basic Rules. ... |
I rule set should not be changed (unless the rules themselve change) -- it would mess with the ability to compare with previous participation. If they are to be limited to members only (not a bad idea) then the members ruleset (advanced) should be used.
Originally posted by coolhar:
... The QFS would award the same prizes as weekly challenges, it's scores and stats would be combined with all others. ... |
Having seperate stats (total, open, members, invitational, free) would not be all bad.
Originally posted by coolhar:
... Thanks for reading this far. I'm outta here. Because of my work I've been tied to the keyboard all week. My work is done and it's the weekend, so Harvey is going to go out and play with his cameras. No more posts from me until AA scores are up. |
Thanks for participating and enjoy your weekend.
David
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03/12/2005 05:59:30 PM · #39 |
It would be really awesome if the winner of such a challenge got to pick a challenge theme... hmm.
(awaits the barrage of rebuttles)
Joe
I also think of free studies as awesome simply because we get to shoot what WE want, and not what the majority sc vote wants. Sorry guys and gals who are sc.
Message edited by author 2005-03-12 18:00:51.
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03/12/2005 06:33:59 PM · #40 |
Your proposed policy for a Quarterly Free Study seems reasonable coolhar. I'd back that as a fair compromise.
John
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03/13/2005 09:29:34 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
And I sent a PM to ClubJuggle about a week ago (about something similiar to the things that have come up in this thread, but not about the topic here) which he has not responded to. Nor did he answer me when, a day or two later, I asked in the forums if he had received it.
So Terry, how do you want it, in the forums or in PMs? Your choice, I'll try either because I want my message to be heard, not my tone but my message. But please don't tell me to use the PMs if you aren't going to respond when I send a PM to you. Please look past my tone in this next sentence. That strikes me as sort of hypocritical, and unbecoming of someone in a position of leadership in this community. |
The last PM I received from you was on 01 March, and was a thank-you for handling a forum issue. Perhaps you could send it again?
Also, because of my work schedule, there are many forum threads I do not get the opportunity to read. If the post was made during the east-coast workday, I almost certainly did not see it.
If you choose to see that as "hypocritical, and unbecoming of someone in a position of leadership in this community," that is your privilege.
-Terry
Message edited by author 2005-03-13 09:32:27.
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03/13/2005 09:42:13 AM · #42 |
Just my thoughts...
I like free studies.
Voting should be one week long.
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03/13/2005 10:45:10 AM · #43 |
free studies give some of us the opportunity to submit photos taken but unable to fit into themed challenges and those photos that we probably SHOULD have entered into a themed challenge but had to choose amongst more than one photo and perhaps chose the wrong one.
Case in point for the 1st reason - Went to Cuba - only able to use 1 shot for a challenge. THough I can put some in my portfolio it would have been nice to have the opportunity to submit again. |
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03/15/2005 06:12:22 PM · #44 |
I completely agree with monthly free studies. I have heard an argument against this. The argument is that if you knew when a free study was going to happen, people would reset the date on their camera to cheat. However, if you had one every month there would be no incentive to cheat in that manner. I Think it is an obvious need that should be filled. I love this site as it is, and I understand that the site is great because of the challenges it offers. I think it can only be enhanced by one more challenge every month allowing people to show what they do without the contraints of a challenge. This will allow for a freedom of shooting that isn't present in this site right now, and can only make it better.
in short...
(whiney voice) Please?
free study!
viva revolution!
lol
drake |
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03/15/2005 06:13:29 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
I understand that reasoning, but you could also argue that having monthly free study challenges would KEEP more involved members who tend to split their energies between DPC and another site that allows freer rein to the creative impulse. Personally, I'd like to see 3 challenges every week; the two we already have PLUS a free study.
Robt. |
What he said... |
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03/15/2005 06:16:43 PM · #46 |
I'd be more likely to enter a regular free study challenge as I take pictures when I'm in the mood and of whatever strikes me. I'm not good at taking them to fit a challenge theme.
I can understand those who suggest that these aren't really challenges and don't really fit into the DPC arena but... I do think they can be useful within the wider context of other challenges and the feedback system here is very helpful.
On the other hand I do find them hard to vote on myself (how to rank/ judge/ score such radically different images?) and I'm curious as to whether as many people would vote/ comment them were they regular as vote/ comment regular challenges.
I'd be really keen to see a trial 3 months of this for sure.
What I'd like to see even more is more technique/ specific skill based challenges such as black and white, shallow depth of field, framing, rule of thirds, centred composition, high contrast etc.
These are kind of free study-ish in that they do not restrict content or style and yet do provide more of a framework for judging and more of a consistency in one aspect at least to the body of entries.
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03/15/2005 06:57:10 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by bear_music:
I understand that reasoning, but you could also argue that having monthly free study challenges would KEEP more involved members who tend to split their energies between DPC and another site that allows freer rein to the creative impulse. Personally, I'd like to see 3 challenges every week; the two we already have PLUS a free study.
Robt. |
What he said... |
Sorry I did not specify but that is what I mean when I suggested the 'Monthly Free Study' Challenge. It is not to replace current challenges but in addition.
Since my thread was locked here is a copy of my post:
I posted the other night about sitting out challenges for a while because I have found myself overlooking the pictures that move me while chasing a particular challenge pictures. Resulting in a lack of quality in the challenge and a picture that I would of taken gone forever. I know others have found themselves doing this and it can become bothersome and sometimes distract the photographer.
I would like to suggest to DPChallenge and other users for debate a ‘Free Study’ challenge once a month. But it would be different from past ‘Free Study’ Challenges. Below is what I would like to see. Can we please debate on this?
1. Free Study challenge to begin on the 1st of every month.
2. Voting period would last for only one week.
3. Picture must be taken between the 1st and end of the preceding month.
4. Advanced Editing
EXAMPLE
Challenge: Monthly Free Study
Challenge Details: Here time to showcase your style of photography. Submit your best photograph taken during March 2005.
Challenge Type: Member Challenge
Challenge Rules: Advanced Editing (Updated 1/3/05)
Submission Deadline: March 31 2005 (began March 1 2005)
Voting Dates: April 1 2005 - Mar 7 2005
Any Suggestions?
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03/17/2005 06:32:26 PM · #48 |
A monthly free study sounds a bit too often for me. A bi-monthly or quarterly sounds about perfect, with a longer voting period of say three weeks or something like that.
I can imagine myself searching through the archives for the last two or three months, trying to find that picture that I'm extra pleased with, to submit it. I think it'd be great fun, and we'd get to see more of the things that people end up putting in their portfolio, never to be seen in a challenge. |
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