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03/10/2005 06:22:05 AM · #101 |
Actually very simple, IF I live a good life and there is no afterlife, then I have not lost anything. But if I live a shitty life and there is an afterlife... well then I'll be in trouble. And for a very long time. ;-)
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03/10/2005 07:08:18 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
God has given us the ONLY way to heaven when He sent us His son, Jesus, to die for us. You can't get to heaven by just believing it is there, or being good, or doing good deeds. You must accept the greatest gift ever given to man and love Him and live for Him to enter heaven. |
That's what YOUR religious beliefs say. Who are you to say that islam or buddhaism is wrong? As far as they are concerned, as long as they follow their religion (which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ), they get to heaven.
Who are you to throw your beliefs in line infront of theirs? They were taught the same way as you...if they do what their religion says, they get to heaven...are you judging them by saying their beliefs are wrong? Doesn't your God say to not judge others?
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03/10/2005 07:53:21 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
God has given us the ONLY way to heaven when He sent us His son, Jesus, to die for us. You can't get to heaven by just believing it is there, or being good, or doing good deeds. You must accept the greatest gift ever given to man and love Him and live for Him to enter heaven. |
That's what YOUR religious beliefs say. Who are you to say that islam or buddhaism is wrong? As far as they are concerned, as long as they follow their religion (which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ), they get to heaven.
Who are you to throw your beliefs in line infront of theirs? They were taught the same way as you...if they do what their religion says, they get to heaven...are you judging them by saying their beliefs are wrong? Doesn't your God say to not judge others? |
Easy now...Christians follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ, who said that the other "ways to God" didn't work...Essentially, he said "listen, many of you seem to be trying to get to my Father. Why won't you listen to me? I'm telling you that I am the only way that you can know God".
I find it silly when people accuse christians of "claiming the only way to God". Well, true...christians follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ (or Messiah, if you will) and he made those outlandish claims himself. I think it would be much sillier if Christians were to say "Sure, I follow and believe what Jesus the Christ said...but I disagree with him on the finer points...so, to be fair, I will just start believing that all religions will get people to God".
Wake up. Christians believe in exlusivity only because that's what Jesus taught. Why do you think Jesus pissed so many people off? It wasn't because he was a quit, humble teacher who only kept to himself.
Oh...and if a christian believes that Jesus is the only way to God, that's not a 'judgement call' on people of other religions. It's just that they believe the teachings of Jesus...the teachings of grace, humility, selflessness, and greatest of all...love. Teachings which also include the statement "I am the way. I'm the truth. I'm the life". Don't peg that as a judgement of people of other religions.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 07:58:32.
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03/10/2005 08:03:00 AM · #104 |
It IS a judgement then on other people by saying that if they don't believe in YOUR GOD, they won't get to heaven. I don't claim to be a Christian or any other religion. I am speaking from an outsider's perspective.
He IS judging the other religions, and his god says not to judge. Maybe it is his god that is contradicting himself (from what you said), but either way, there is some judging going on there.
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03/10/2005 08:03:03 AM · #105 |
| Very interesting discussion and very glad that DPCers can keep it going without it being kicked into 'rant'. I'm a molecular biologist by trade and wouldn't be able to do my job with any sort of honesty if I didn't believe that we came about through laws of physics and chemistry with a smattering of natural selection for flavour. As for the afterlife, one way to look at it is that we each leave a bit of ourselves behind when we die: either through effects we have on the world, the poeple we meet and influence and, most directly, the children we have and raise. I think this all becomes more than just cold biology when you understand that, as conscious beings, we have the ability and personal responsibility to do right by our fellow humans. I guess (hope) that even if people - through different faiths or beliefs - disagree over the details, we're all still heading in that direction. |
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03/10/2005 08:09:25 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by deapee:
It IS a judgement then on other people by saying that if they don't believe in YOUR GOD, they won't get to heaven. I don't claim to be a Christian or any other religion. I am speaking from an outsider's perspective.
He IS judging the other religions, and his god says not to judge. Maybe it is his god that is contradicting himself (from what you said), but either way, there is some judging going on there. |
You're using the verb 'to judge' in many different ways here. What you're referring to is an evaluation, a decision, and yes...ok...a judgement. The same kind of judgement I use when I go to work and 'judge my boss' by assuming that if I don't work, I don't get paid.
When the christian god says not to judge, he is saying not to pass judgement on people because of their behaviour or lifestyle...of course, their behaviour can be judged. I can judge a gossip's behaviour to be wrong, but I can't pass judgement on the individual doing the gossiping because I know that I will do many other things today that are wrong.
Edit: I'm not making a judgement call on other people because they don't believe in MY GOD (as you put it...he's actually not mine, though). I think you're right though. God himself has said that there will be consequences to the decisions that people make in this lifetime. So God has said that he will make judgements, which of course he is qualified to do (He has said that while man looks at the outward appearance, he looks at the heart).
I'm not sure what this will look like...it's of great debate even among christians. CS Lewis thought that it would look like this...when we die, we will be able to have said "God, your will be done" or God will be saying to us "Ok, you can have it your way"...Still not sure what this would look like. That's what christians believe, anyhow...
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 08:15:16.
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03/10/2005 08:14:12 AM · #107 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
When the christian god says not to judge, he is saying not to pass judgement on people because of their behaviour or lifestyle... |
EXACTLY MY POINT! Saying someone is not going to heaven because of their lifestyle or behavior is JUDGING THEM!!!! You admitted it yourself.
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03/10/2005 08:17:38 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
When the christian god says not to judge, he is saying not to pass judgement on people because of their behaviour or lifestyle... |
EXACTLY MY POINT! Saying someone is not going to heaven because of their lifestyle or behavior is JUDGING THEM!!!! You admitted it yourself. |
Despite your caps and generous use of exclamation marks, you're missing my point. The way that you use the word judgement, and what the bible speaks of, are two different uses of the word.
For example, if I judge that somebody is having a heart attack and I call the medics, do you really believe that I have acted contrary to the teachings of the christian bible simply because I have judged that someone is having a heart attack?
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 08:18:56.
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03/10/2005 08:21:39 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by deapee:
That's what YOUR religious beliefs say. Who are you to say that islam or buddhaism is wrong? As far as they are concerned, as long as they follow their religion (which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ), they get to heaven.
Who are you to throw your beliefs in line infront of theirs? They were taught the same way as you...if they do what their religion says, they get to heaven...are you judging them by saying their beliefs are wrong? Doesn't your God say to not judge others? |
So they can feel theirs is the only way, but Christians cannot?
And to bring it back on topic -- yes, I believe in an afterlife, or something after death.
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03/10/2005 08:26:34 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by heydandy:
I believe heaven and hell are right here in this earth. If we lead a good life then we can create a heaven in this earth, otherwise a hell. What happens after death is a mystery and I will see that when I die. If I die before you, if afterlife exists and if it is possible for my soul to contact you guys, then I will definitely try to contact you :-)
When people discover that the universe is so complicated, they believe only a 'Creator' can do such wonders. But then, who created the 'Creator'?
I believe in God. But I don't believe God is a supernatural force or a physical thing. God is a wonderful 'concept'. The mental strength and peace which this 'concept' gives is amazing.
Regarding bible, I don't know if stories in the bible are true or not, but the principles the bible teaches are enough for me to lead a good life and create a 'heaven' in earth. |
Who decides if we lead a good life...is there some objective measuring stick. Is there a grading scale of good deeds...or is it all subjective to what the person has done. If it's all subjective, I would imagine there would be very few people who would send themselves to Hell. If it's all objective then where is this measuring stick, how many good deeds must one do. It simply is not enough, if you believe in an afterlife, to say that good deeds get you there if you can't find some objective way to decide...generally people won't find themselves guilty to spend their afterlife in Hell. |
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03/10/2005 08:39:11 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
God has given us the ONLY way to heaven when He sent us His son, Jesus, to die for us. You can't get to heaven by just believing it is there, or being good, or doing good deeds. You must accept the greatest gift ever given to man and love Him and live for Him to enter heaven. |
That's what YOUR religious beliefs say. Who are you to say that islam or buddhaism is wrong? As far as they are concerned, as long as they follow their religion (which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ), they get to heaven.
Who are you to throw your beliefs in line infront of theirs? They were taught the same way as you...if they do what their religion says, they get to heaven...are you judging them by saying their beliefs are wrong? Doesn't your God say to not judge others? |
Easy now...Christians follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ, who said that the other "ways to God" didn't work...Essentially, he said "listen, many of you seem to be trying to get to my Father. Why won't you listen to me? I'm telling you that I am the only way that you can know God".
I find it silly when people accuse christians of "claiming the only way to God". Well, true...christians follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ (or Messiah, if you will) and he made those outlandish claims himself. I think it would be much sillier if Christians were to say "Sure, I follow and believe what Jesus the Christ said...but I disagree with him on the finer points...so, to be fair, I will just start believing that all religions will get people to God".
Wake up. Christians believe in exlusivity only because that's what Jesus taught. Why do you think Jesus pissed so many people off? It wasn't because he was a quit, humble teacher who only kept to himself.
Oh...and if a christian believes that Jesus is the only way to God, that's not a 'judgement call' on people of other religions. It's just that they believe the teachings of Jesus...the teachings of grace, humility, selflessness, and greatest of all...love. Teachings which also include the statement "I am the way. I'm the truth. I'm the life". Don't peg that as a judgement of people of other religions. |
Didn't Jesus speak in parables? According to the Bible isn't Jesus the embodiment of God's love? Then why the exclusivity? If God looks at your heart then what is he looking for? A pure heart is full of love no matter what religion a person practices. If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full.
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03/10/2005 08:50:57 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables? According to the Bible isn't Jesus the embodiment of God's love? Then why the exclusivity? If God looks at your heart then what is he looking for? A pure heart is full of love no matter what religion a person practices. If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full. |
I'll try and respond more properly, but if I was a preacher trying to keep the coffers full I'd stick to the least divisive message possible...
Anyhow, Jesus said on numerous occasions that those who vouch for him would get persecuted, perhaps killed. I'm not sure I understand how vouching for 'love' could get his disciples killed.
He says those who 'confess me' in front of others, I'll 'confess them' before God.
He says "whoever is ashamed of me now, I'll be ashamed of them in front of my father".
Jesus is also clear that he is dying for those he loves...how so? He claimed to be the messiah...jews were expecting him to establish the kingdom of Israel over their oppressers...and all he does is die?
Sorry, to say that Jesus was just telling others to love each other is missing the big point of his teachings.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 09:02:01.
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03/10/2005 08:52:23 AM · #113 |
I have resisted jumping in so far, but here goes.
As for Heaven and Hell, yes I'm a believer in those. Where? Who knows. More importantly in my opinion is the question how do you get there?
I believe that every person falls short of perfection and when judged by the Almighty will be found unworthy of Heaven and deserving of eternal Hell. It follows that no amount of doing "good" will compensate. I can't make up for the wrongs I commit. Or for the wrongs that I think, for that matter. God judges the heart. How can anybody pass such a test?
I believe that the historical Jesus is in fact God Almighty and also is fully human. He lived a perfect sinless life and willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice for anyone who accepts Him, paying the price for our sins in the only way that God the Father accepts. That's the end of the story as I understand it. You can't accept Jesus AND try to earn Heaven by being "good", because as long as you are trying to justify yourself to God by your behaviour, then you haven't trusted Him completely for your standing. Not to say that we shouldn't avoid doing wrong and try to do more good! I think, though, that it is an easy trap to fool ourselves into thinking that we to some degree can deserve acceptance by God and Heaven.
Is this a new twist for anyone reading? As soon as you believe and accept Jesus as your personal saviour, it's done and you are spiritually reborn! The Bible says in 2 Corinthians that
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."
Yes I know I am narrow minded (truly I am), but I don't think I'm intolerant or mean-spirited to folks who believe differently. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but am hoping to clearly offer my beliefs for anyone who might be interested.
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03/10/2005 09:05:34 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables? According to the Bible isn't Jesus the embodiment of God's love? Then why the exclusivity? If God looks at your heart then what is he looking for? A pure heart is full of love no matter what religion a person practices. If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full. |
but if I was a preacher trying to keep the coffers full I'd stick to the least divisive message possible... |
Then why don't they? I heard preachers say that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. But then they add that the only way to jesus is through the bible. And of course the only way to understand the bible is through their perticular denomination, be it Catholic, Southern Baptist, ect.. I've heard this with my own ears on many occasions at various churches.
I have to leave this debate for a while now because my old Banjo was just found hit by a car and I have to take him home and bury him. I wonder if he has an afterlife.
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03/10/2005 09:08:53 AM · #115 |
Whether something is right or wrong is NOT decided by any religion, but by the society in which a person lives. Something which is seemed as right in a society may not be seemed as right in another society. for e.g. Sex before marriage is not wrong in US, but is wrong in Saudi/India/Pakistan.
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03/10/2005 09:09:00 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by nova:
I have resisted jumping in so far, but here goes.
As for Heaven and Hell, yes I'm a believer in those. Where? Who knows. More importantly in my opinion is the question how do you get there?
I believe that every person falls short of perfection and when judged by the Almighty will be found unworthy of Heaven and deserving of eternal Hell. It follows that no amount of doing "good" will compensate. I can't make up for the wrongs I commit. Or for the wrongs that I think, for that matter. God judges the heart. How can anybody pass such a test?
I believe that the historical Jesus is in fact God Almighty and also is fully human. He lived a perfect sinless life and willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice for anyone who accepts Him, paying the price for our sins in the only way that God the Father accepts. That's the end of the story as I understand it. You can't accept Jesus AND try to earn Heaven by being "good", because as long as you are trying to justify yourself to God by your behaviour, then you haven't trusted Him completely for your standing. Not to say that we shouldn't avoid doing wrong and try to do more good! I think, though, that it is an easy trap to fool ourselves into thinking that we to some degree can deserve acceptance by God and Heaven.
Is this a new twist for anyone reading? As soon as you believe and accept Jesus as your personal saviour, it's done and you are spiritually reborn! The Bible says in 2 Corinthians that
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."
Yes I know I am narrow minded (truly I am), but I don't think I'm intolerant or mean-spirited to folks who believe differently. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but am hoping to clearly offer my beliefs for anyone who might be interested. |
I agree with you nova! But I think when someone like myself takes this stance you automatically get this awareness of what is right and what is not in Gods eyes and you tend to follow your heart. If it's Gods way then you become more like him everyday - if its not - the reverse can happen. I am not saying that a non believer is automatically a bad person - actually nothing could be further from the truth - but that does not give them the ticket to heaven - Cause the ticket is a free one - you can't earn it - you just have to accept it...
Anyway
ebertdj@hotmail.com
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03/10/2005 09:11:11 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
but if I was a preacher trying to keep the coffers full I'd stick to the least divisive message possible...
Then why don't they? I heard preachers say that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. But then they add that the only way to jesus is through the bible. And of course the only way to understand the bible is through their perticular denomination, be it Catholic, Southern Baptist, ect.. I've heard this with my own ears on many occasions at various churches.
I have to leave this debate for a while now because my old Banjo was just found hit by a car and I have to take him home and bury him. I wonder if he has an afterlife. |
Shoot...that sucks...
As for what preachers preach...I can't vouch for anyone else. I've heard so much crap that is clearly intended to make money I'm sick of it.
Actually, I started a thread on it right after I heard Jimmy Swaggart say that he's like to kick a particular author 'between the pockets'. Yuck...doesn't sound like Jesus at all.
You make so many good points...honest...I wish this was a bar and you and I were having beers, it would be much easier to converse.
Anyhow, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I would just recommend that whatever anyone does, they should keep searching for truth...I'm convinced that the truth will make you free and it won't take a sales pitch for you to find it.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 09:14:19.
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03/10/2005 09:13:19 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by heydandy:
Whether something is right or wrong is NOT decided by any religion, but by the society in which a person lives. Something which is seemed as right in a society may not be seemed as right in another society. for e.g. Sex before marriage is not wrong in US, but is wrong in Saudi/India/Pakistan. |
These arguments are old. Where can one go to have sex with an infant? Is there such a society where this is allowed? If morals are a social consequence, then you would simply have to put all the pedophiles on an island and nobody could argue with anything they do, right?
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03/10/2005 09:15:52 AM · #119 |
I believe in the afterlife. I just don't plan on being there.
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03/10/2005 09:17:40 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
... my old Banjo was just found hit by a car and I have to take him home and bury him. I wonder if he has an afterlife. |
What a devistating turn of events, Martin. I'm so sorry. I know how difficult the loss must be for you. He was a beautiful dog, and I am sure he was a constant companion.
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03/10/2005 09:21:52 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by bpickard:
...we came about through laws of physics and chemistry with a smattering of natural selection for flavour. As for the afterlife, one way to look at it is that we each leave a bit of ourselves behind when we die: either through effects we have on the world, the people we meet and influence and, most directly, the children we have and raise. ...we have the ability and personal responsibility to do right by our fellow humans. |
At the risk of losing respect among some people, I'm basically in this camp. To me, it seems that all of our experiences, memories, personality, and sense of self are a network of neural connections within our brains... basically "firmware." Once that is lost, there is no more "you" to go anywhere, no medium to carry the information. What lives on is the legacy that you've created- good or bad.
Interestingly, both Harry Houdini and Thomas Edison devoted their final years to finding a way to communicate with the dead. Neither succeeded. |
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03/10/2005 09:27:42 AM · #122 |
Is there an afterlife this is probably one of the oldest unaswered questions. I suppose the easiest answer too this would be in the most concrete and least mystical was possible. Every thing in nature rocks, air,and humans all have electrons and neutrons and such within them. These electrons are constantly in motion causing energy. Some of this energy is visible with the naked eye some is not. However one thing is certain. All things contain energy. If I were to take a rock and break in half the same amount of energy would still be there but it would be in divided between the two halves. Now take a human for an instance if a human was to be broke in half. He'd probably die but the energy would still be there. Einstein has managed to prove for us all the energy is constant. While it can change forms, solar energy changes to another form of energy through various means. Perhaps through the chloroform in a plant. The point is you can alter the form of energy, you cannot however destroy it.
What is death? death is simply the manipulation of energy. Now if energy is a constant and never destroyed what happens to your energy when you die? Simple you become worm food and fertilizer. For the most part. Tree's absorb your energy through there roots as you decompose. The tree uses this energy to grow an apple, the apple is eaten and the energy is absorbed by a deer. The deer is then hunted and eaten by a man. The man soon dies and the cycle continues. So in essence you are a part of everything. So far in this description there is still a flaw
you might have noticed it and asked yourself . What of the soul? What
happens when you die are you simple worm food? Is human love, hatred and
intelligence the simple coincidental result of two atoms rubbing together?
Why is a tree not capable of art or music then? That is because of the
soul. The soul while it is energy cannot be so simply converted or
manipulated. I'm content to feel that is does go on and that the
simple aspect is ALL things are related.
These are my deep and personal beliefs. These are not tidbits of knowledge ripped from a book. It has taken me a lifetime and perhaps longer to come to these conclusions. I hope the veiws of a druid might be well received and possibly give a few of you a new angl or insight or apreciation for the life you have.
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03/10/2005 09:42:55 AM · #123 |
Seriously, I believe that we, as lowly human beings, know altogether too little to have any certainty about what happens when we die.
...With that said, it's clear to me that we're all part of this phenomenon called "life". Kalil Gibran once said that "Your children are not your children. They're the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself." That makes sense to me. Life wants to continue; at all cost we rebel against dying. That, to me, is the motivation behind all religious belief. There is no "revealed truth".
The more we learn, the more we know. But the more we learn, the more we realize how much we don't know.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 09:45:25. |
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03/10/2005 10:16:36 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by tristalisk:
The soul while it is energy cannot be so simply converted or manipulated. |
The assumption there is that the soul is some form of energy, rather than the sense of self defined by our brain's physical connections and chemistry. That our moods and personalities are so easily influenced by physical change and chemistry (drugs, for example), would seem to support the latter scenario.
The principle you referenced- that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only converted into energy- leads to the conclusion that all matter/energy must have existed long before there was any life to have a soul. Your assertion, therefore, means that souls are created, but never destroyed. Good thing, because I've read that (because of exponential birth rates) there are more people alive today than have ever lived or died in the past.
Regardless of whether there is an afterlife or not, I can't put much stock in the Bible (or any other text, for that matter). Ever play that game where you pass a message from one person to the next in school to see how much it changes by the end? Well the Bible was written at least 1400 years before there was a printing press. Every word in it must have been passed from person to person (and language to language) for an enormous amount of time. Add to that the fact that literacy was often restricted to the elite few and the clergy, who's power and influence derived from what they themselves had written. No eating beef on Fridays? Guess who ran all the fish farms in the middle ages. The bible used to claim (among other things) that the sun revolved around the earth, and that the earth was over 80% land. If you can't even get the basic provable parts of this devine text right, then what hope is there for the rest?
Most major religions claim (or have claimed) that they were the only true believers and that everyone else would or should be punished or wiped out. Yet they persist thousands of years later. The only major religions to die out have come from the hands of man, with one civilization exterminating another (Greeks, Romans, Incas, etc..).
I could go on, but I've probably already fanned way too many flames. It's a credit to all here that this thread persists outside of Rant!
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 10:22:56. |
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03/10/2005 10:27:29 AM · #125 |
| I'm not counting on anything beyond this life..if there is more, it will be a bonus. That's why I feel that every day is a gift. |
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