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01/18/2005 09:18:20 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Originally posted by bjallen:
Thanks for the input...just how poorly paid are we talking? |
In the UK about 9k to 14k when I last looked. |
Hmmm... 14K (pounds = 32K CAD) as a photog, or 25K (pounds = 57K CAD) as a K9 officer. Hmmm, let me think about that one... NOT! I'll stick to being a lowly amateur, thank you very much.
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01/18/2005 09:19:34 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
For the most part I was kidding. But I have had other photographers jump infront of me and push me out of the way, then again, I'm just a young girl and they were older men. Such is the way of life...men automatically establish a pecking order, and usually I'm at the bottom. LOL In my humble experience of course :-) |
Can't resist this one... maybe you need a pecker!
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01/18/2005 10:24:18 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Thanks for so much fascinating information John. I am trying to get enough experience, and confidence, to approach a local paper to do something like what you are. I am satisfied with what I can do at a daytime football game, night games arn't quite there yet.
But now am struggling with the lighting at HS basketball. What kind of lens and flash are you using? and what settings? I am shooting mostly with a 85mm 1.8 and so far my best images have come with no flash. Using my 20D's built in flash is sometimes ok, mostly not very good. I bought a 580EX but haven't learned how to use it very well. Any advise on settings, both camera and flash, would be greatly appreciated. |
I am using a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 for basketball. I usually shoot in manual mode at either iso 400 or iso 800, depending on where I am. I shoot at 1/200" and either f/3.5 or f/4 rather than f/2.8 (this is a relatively new change... I get better images by stopping down a tad). I use the 550ex flash and adjust it down about -2/3 stops.
The reason I'm shooting wtih a slightly smaller aperture is because of the shallow depth of field at f/2.8. When you calculate the total depth of field at 70mm at f/2.8, you will see that it is very shallow. When the players are moving and I am close to them (15-20ft) just a few inches of movement between the time my AF locks and the time I fire the shutter, they can actually move inside my minimum DOF range and become fuzzy. The minor aperture adjustment fixes that.
This is not as much of a problem from longer distances, but at close range, it is a huge problem.
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01/18/2005 11:03:33 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I am using a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 for basketball. I usually shoot in manual mode at either iso 400 or iso 800, depending on where I am. I shoot at 1/200" and either f/3.5 or f/4 rather than f/2.8 (this is a relatively new change... I get better images by stopping down a tad). I use the 550ex flash and adjust it down about -2/3 stops.
The reason I'm shooting wtih a slightly smaller aperture is because of the shallow depth of field at f/2.8. When you calculate the total depth of field at 70mm at f/2.8, you will see that it is very shallow. When the players are moving and I am close to them (15-20ft) just a few inches of movement between the time my AF locks and the time I fire the shutter, they can actually move inside my minimum DOF range and become fuzzy. The minor aperture adjustment fixes that.
This is not as much of a problem from longer distances, but at close range, it is a huge problem. |
Thanks for the reply. I had almost figured out the DoF thing, that the shallowest just isn't enough, especially when they are close. You've confirmed my suspicions on that part of it. Do you think 200 is fast enough to freeze the action? I was using 250 and hoping I could do faster than that if I can learn the flash well enough to get a good balance between flash and ambient light. Trying to stay at 400 & 800 ISO and avoid 1600 if at all possible. I'm going to a game tommorow night and will incorporate your advise into my plan of attack.
At most of the games I go to I'm the only photog there, me and the mothers shooting their sons. I think the papers around here don't bother unless it's a really important matchup because the lighting is so poor. For the big games I've seen them set up high power strobes (2 near the corners of the court and one at the top of the bleachers) synched to their big Nikons. If I can conquer the low light there may be a niche where the pros don't want to fool with it. I am making a mental inventory of the various gyms and their lighting, some have skylights which helps if it's an afternoon game. Some are so dark I wonder how they can play.
Message edited by author 2005-01-18 23:10:48.
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01/18/2005 11:49:21 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Do you think 200 is fast enough to freeze the action? |
Generally, it is. 1/250 will definitely do it even better. I just shoot at 1/200" because i can shoot that way without having to move my flash to high speed sync.
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01/19/2005 08:04:59 AM · #56 |
Coolhar,
I shoot the basketball games with a canon 85mm f1.8, set at 1.8. I too have the DOF problem, but I just take enough shots that I pick and chose the ones where they stayed in the DOF. I use ISO 1600 and get (depending on if you're under a burned out bulb or not, the darkness of the jerseys, etc etc) from 1/320 to 1/800 sec shutter speed. I do it mostly with NO flash most of the time (I hate to annoy them with a big flash, I hated it as a player). Sometimes, when the action is slow, or time outs when they are talking to the coach, I'll use the hotshoe flash. I process all the no-flash-1600 shots thru neatimage and then photopaint, and they come out nice. Just my two cents worth on what I've found works best for me...
Doug
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01/19/2005 08:18:32 AM · #57 |
I was wondering about the flash...doesn't it bug the athletes? You point it at the ceiling/floor or wall, right?
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01/19/2005 09:35:20 AM · #58 |
TCT,
I don't know about the rest, but me personally I don't use the flash during actual play. I will use it during time outs, for shots of the teams around the coach, or on the bench, or such. Or, if it's a "calm" time in the game, like when the point gaurd is coming down the floor and there is no press going on, then I might use it too. But, when the players are actually playing against each other, I don't use it. That's just my personal preference.
But I would be most interested in the experience of someone who does use the flash, if the players have ever complained about it. Because I can image when you are taking pictures from the baseline, and they are shooting at the goal, your flash is pretty close to their line of sight. I would think it would have to bother them... But maybe not. That's why I'd like to hear from someone that uses it.
Doug
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01/19/2005 12:02:11 PM · #59 |
I use my flash for all my shots and there have never been any complaints. The only time I don't use a flash is when I photograph a player at the foul line.
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01/19/2005 12:41:35 PM · #60 |
Wow, nice to know! I may try it sometime then.
Then again...you're there in an "official" capacity, while I'm just some bozo taking pictures of a friends kid... :-) They might get ticked at ME!!! :-)
ha ha ha ha ha.
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01/19/2005 12:51:45 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by dswebb:
Coolhar,
I shoot the basketball games with a canon 85mm f1.8, set at 1.8. I too have the DOF problem, but I just take enough shots that I pick and chose the ones where they stayed in the DOF. I use ISO 1600 and get (depending on if you're under a burned out bulb or not, the darkness of the jerseys, etc etc) from 1/320 to 1/800 sec shutter speed. I do it mostly with NO flash most of the time (I hate to annoy them with a big flash, I hated it as a player). Sometimes, when the action is slow, or time outs when they are talking to the coach, I'll use the hotshoe flash. I process all the no-flash-1600 shots thru neatimage and then photopaint, and they come out nice. Just my two cents worth on what I've found works best for me...
Doug |
Thanks for your input Doug. I had been holding back from using the higher ISO and NI but think I'll give it a try. What's photopaint?
TCT, as for using flash, I was very hesitant at first, didn't use it at all. Then I started watching other photogs use it without any reaction. Now I use it if I want to but am careful not to distract play, such as shooting a player at the foul line, that's a no-no. Several times I have asked athletic directors and/or asst. coaches about using flash and no one has said not to. I never approach the head coach but sometimes he will come to me. I have also asked referees to let me know if they think my flash bothers the players and none have said anything. I have also paid attention to players in action, looking for any reaction when a flash fires. None so far. I think flash is acceptable. I have looked but found no signs to the contrary.
At the level I am operating most everyone, from the AD to the players, refs, down to the cheerleaders, has been real receptive. I am frequently asked who I am shooting for and my standard answer is that "I am just free-lancing." Carrying a big camera bag alone has gotten me unsolicited free admission to some games.
Some tips that might help you be taken seriously at games are to get there earlier than the crowd, don't ask for free admission (you're not entitled to it), smile and be friendly (some newspaper photogs aren't). If you see Security checking people going in, go directly to them and open your bag as if you are used to being checked. I make it a point to get a roster to identify the players by their numbers after I get home and look at my shots. If they are not giving them away when you come in, just asking for a roster will help separate you from the moms. Make it obvious that you are not rooting for either team.
I enjoy the game and my shots are improving so I'm going to 1-2 games every week right now, but am also looking forward to spring when HS sports will again move out into the daylight.
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01/19/2005 01:08:35 PM · #62 |
Coolhar,
Photopaint is Corel's version of Photoshop. I use Photoshop Elements some too, but am more comfortable with Photopaint as I've used it longer...
I am at your stage of "very hesitant" to use the flash. But after the inputs here, maybe I'll give it more of a try. Thanks all. Save some time in NeatImage at least! :-)
Doug |
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01/19/2005 01:48:17 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I enjoy the game and my shots are improving so I'm going to 1-2 games every week right now, but am also looking forward to spring when HS sports will again move out into the daylight. |
I hate to ask this question because it really boils my blood... I've thought about taking pictures of local high school games, mostly for my own experience, but stopped. Why? I'm a male in my 30's, and I just don't want some psycho parent thinking I'm looking to exploit their kids.
Have any of you who shoot games ever had an experience with people questioning your intent? Is this all paranoia in my mind?
Thanks - this has been a very enlightening thread!
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01/19/2005 01:52:48 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by dswebb:
Wow, nice to know! I may try it sometime then.
Then again...you're there in an "official" capacity, while I'm just some bozo taking pictures of a friends kid... :-) They might get ticked at ME!!! :-)
ha ha ha ha ha. |
I doubt the will.. consider the fact that they are not usually looking at you. A flash out of the corner of the eye for a player is not as impacting as it would be if they were looking straight at you. If they are watching you instead of the ball, the basket, or another player, they probably won't be on the court long anyway :)
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01/19/2005 01:55:04 PM · #65 |
For what it's worth, my photo editor has told me that when shooting sporting events, the ONLY event where you should not use a flash is baseball.
I found this a bit odd, but he told me that distracting a batter or pitcher with a flash can lead to someone getting hurt.
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01/19/2005 01:56:07 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by cghubbell:
[quote=coolhar]
Have any of you who shoot games ever had an experience with people questioning your intent? Is this all paranoia in my mind?
Thanks - this has been a very enlightening thread! |
It's paranoia. The only questions I have ever received from parents is requests for the photos :)
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01/19/2005 02:00:36 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
It's paranoia. The only questions I have ever received from parents is requests for the photos :) |
Yea and I think there's a huge difference between saying "I'm shooting for the local paper" and saying "I just like to take pictures for my own portfolio". Shooting for a paper makes people believe you're a professional and therefore trust worthy.
It's the perception.
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01/19/2005 02:02:07 PM · #68 |
I managed to request and get a cool non-sports assignment for Friday night this week. I actually told my photo editor I was not available for basketball because I would be attending a Joel Meyerowitz dinner and presentation at my local art museum. His "9/11 Aftermath" exhibit will be on display here for a couple months and he is opening the exhibit with a presentation in the museum auditorium.
I contacted the newspaper head editor about this and he is allowing me to cover it for the paper since I will be there anyway. With that permission being given from the paper, I contacted the museum and asked permission to bring my camera. I got that permission, along with free entry on the guest list for the event.
Note:
This is one method of getting 'noticed' by your local newspaper and getting opportunities to shoot. Go cover some event that isn't being covered and send your photos to the editor along with your writeup of the event. You may just get published.
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01/19/2005 02:05:38 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
It's paranoia. The only questions I have ever received from parents is requests for the photos :) |
Yea and I think there's a huge difference between saying "I'm shooting for the local paper" and saying "I just like to take pictures for my own portfolio". Shooting for a paper makes people believe you're a professional and therefore trust worthy.
It's the perception. |
I still don't think it's a problem.
However, if you spend all your time hovering around and 'below' the cheerleaders, you may get questioned :)
I run into quite a few non-press photographers when I am covering sports. They are there for various reason and a lot of them will be shooting from the baseline with me.
Like I said, I have NEVER been questioned about my intentions or purpose of being at these events. I do wear my ID badge, but there have been a few occasions where I have forgotten to bring that with me. A regular presence makes you 'known' to the people who would see you.
If you have fear or doubt about the viability of shooting, it's always a good idea to introduce yourself to the people who matter. This would be the players (when possible) and coaches.
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01/19/2005 02:21:19 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Yea and I think there's a huge difference between saying "I'm shooting for the local paper" and saying "I just like to take pictures for my own portfolio". Shooting for a paper makes people believe you're a professional and therefore trust worthy. |
That's sort of my point. My career really doesn't allow enough free time to make commitments to local papers, and I would hate to overcommit. It's just something I'd like to try to do for my own development... So, that doesn't sound like something likely to land me a press pass :)
I'm not really interested in shooting the cheerleaders unless they do some wild acrobatics at half time. I'm not really so much of a sports nut either. I'd just like to try my hand at getting cool action shots, and fan candids. In the same way that focusing on shooting birds has helped me to "think fast" with my settings, I think action sports would develop my technique.
I would just like to be able to focus on photography without wondering if someone thinks I'm a freak. I have a black camera, but no press pass. That must be good for something :)
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01/19/2005 02:27:56 PM · #71 |
I find the whole press thing a bit intimidating. It's one thing to try your hand at your local paper, but try going to a press conference in NY with a bunch of veterans. The equipment they carry is enough to make me feel like an amateur for sure.
I went to my first real press conference a few weeks ago. New Years Eve with the Mayor of NY and 8 past olympians. Every major NY paper was represented there.
It was a great experience, but I did feel out of place a little.
I hope to go to more press events, and get more comfortable in my surroundings with them.
The best thing to do is to practice by going to every little event you can find. If you get something good, do try to get it to a paper. Better yet, write an article to go with it. I know plenty of people that get a lot of free publicity that way.
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01/19/2005 02:35:22 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by cghubbell:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Yea and I think there's a huge difference between saying "I'm shooting for the local paper" and saying "I just like to take pictures for my own portfolio". Shooting for a paper makes people believe you're a professional and therefore trust worthy. |
That's sort of my point. My career really doesn't allow enough free time to make commitments to local papers, and I would hate to overcommit. It's just something I'd like to try to do for my own development... So, that doesn't sound like something likely to land me a press pass :)
I'm not really interested in shooting the cheerleaders unless they do some wild acrobatics at half time. I'm not really so much of a sports nut either. I'd just like to try my hand at getting cool action shots, and fan candids. In the same way that focusing on shooting birds has helped me to "think fast" with my settings, I think action sports would develop my technique.
I would just like to be able to focus on photography without wondering if someone thinks I'm a freak. I have a black camera, but no press pass. That must be good for something :) |
The only real advantage of the 'pass' at a local high school event is that it will save you the ticket price.
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01/19/2005 02:36:52 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by TerryGee:
I find the whole press thing a bit intimidating. It's one thing to try your hand at your local paper, but try going to a press conference in NY with a bunch of veterans. The equipment they carry is enough to make me feel like an amateur for sure.
I went to my first real press conference a few weeks ago. New Years Eve with the Mayor of NY and 8 past olympians. Every major NY paper was represented there.
It was a great experience, but I did feel out of place a little.
I hope to go to more press events, and get more comfortable in my surroundings with them.
The best thing to do is to practice by going to every little event you can find. If you get something good, do try to get it to a paper. Better yet, write an article to go with it. I know plenty of people that get a lot of free publicity that way. |
Any 'real' photographer knows that its not about the gear you use as much as it is about the results you get. I think your apprehension here is a personal one and it's something you should not worry about. Photographers are the only people who care about gear. The editors usually have no clue and they only look at the photos you produce.
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01/19/2005 02:39:25 PM · #74 |
Yeah, and you have a black camera, Terry...what will I do with my lowly silver rebel?
Just kidding...it's a stigma created on websites like this one...
Message edited by author 2005-01-19 14:39:39.
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01/19/2005 02:41:14 PM · #75 |
Cghubbel,
Like someone else said too, I've never been questioned by anyone except to ask for pictures for themselves. In fact, one time I had a COP who was there (his kid was playing, he was still in uniform, gun and all) ask me for copies. He asked very nicely, and indicated I didn't have too. But I did anyway. :-) Can't hurt to keep them happy, right? :-)
Doug
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