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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> How to get a 20D for $300.. bwahahaha..
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 12/16/2004 07:26:44 PM · #26
Originally posted by skiprow:
what's there to feel guilty about. the company makes an offer and some people take advantage of it. they know what to expect, or they wouldn't make the offer ;-)


I believe the company offers it to you in good faith. The type of people that take advantage of this kind of system are the same types who commit insurance fraud, basically trying to get something out of nothing.. or more than what they paid for.

Originally posted by soup:
most people don't have the balls to try to abuse the system.


I don't think it has anything to do with balls but rather being an honest individual. I have the balls to commit murder, doesn't mean I'm going to or that it's justified.
 12/16/2004 08:38:57 PM · #27
what if you didnt buy your cam at best buy, can you trade it in anyway?
 12/17/2004 04:29:47 PM · #28
you having the balls to do it doens't mean everyone else does.
those who do have the balls to - don't care whether or not it is justified, or the right thing to do.

personally - i paid for a service contract - and if need be will make the retailer uphold their end of the deal. i deal with this type of thing everyday - and no matter what anyone says - most folks DO want something for nothing, and are willing to push until they get it.
those that don't push tend not to have any balls.

here is a for instance - we sell hot tubs - they come with a vinyl wrapped foam cover. this cover is covered against manufacturer defects for two years. however when the customers' 100# dog jumps on the thing and breaks it - suddenely that is a manufacturer defect, and should be covered by the dealer - me
if i don't cover the item is the customer going to come back and spend more money with us, are they going to refer us to a friend? are these everyday people dishonest, and lacking morals. or do they just want to get every little bit they can for the hard earned dollars they spent on a $5000 item? ( comparable in price to a dSLR system )

now if we offered an extended service contract ( for a sizeable fee ) - we couldn't complain about this type of thing - could we?

i see this example no different than a dirty CMOS.

Originally posted by Bran-O-Rama:
Originally posted by soup:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
most people don't have the balls to try to abuse the system.

I don't think it has anything to do with balls but rather being an honest individual. I have the balls to commit murder, doesn't mean I'm going to or that it's justified.

12/18/2004 04:40:53 AM · #29
Your example is pretty weak. Are you saying a dog breaking the hot tub from jumping on it is a manufacturer defect and not a fault of the end user? Are they supposed to withstand abuse from animals like that? If you really wanted to cover yourself, you'd put a disclaimer not to exceed a certain weight or to prevent jumping on it.

You worry about the customer not referring his friends to you? Would you rather that 1 customer purchase the extended warranty, have his dog break it, get it replaced, then recommend to all of his friends to do the exact same thing of breaking and replacing, breaking and replacing etc? You'd be out of business within in a week.

A dirty CMOS is unavoidable. If you have a DSLR, YOU WILL GET DUST. You just have to live with the fact that it needs to be cleaned regularly. Unfortunately, many cameras come with dust straight from the factory. Regardless, once you purchase a camera that is dustfree, you will eventually get dust on it by your own fault. That's like buying a shirt, getting it dirty, then demanding a refund or a new one. You can't simply return a camera, everytime YOU get dust in it. I can understand if it were dusty out of the box, but that's not what is implied here. What has been suggested is that anytime your camera needs servicing for dust removal, simply get a new one. That's uncalled for.
 12/18/2004 09:02:52 AM · #30
the cover comes with instructions, weight load limits, proper cleaning care, and comments on proper chemical use.
i'm saying the end user assumes once it's broken assumes it is a manufacturers defect.

they also fall apart from chemical abuse of the hot tub water. and again this falls back on us as a warranty issue.

if we offered a service plan we wouldn't be out of business - it would be something bought from the manufacturer ( not offered to us as an option though ) - it's like insurance. most people maintain the tub pretty well, and don't let the dog on the thing. so again only a small percentage would actually use it. a percentage of those folks would abuse it. however even the abusers would stay content.

i have my own ways of dealing with the folks who think they can get something for nothing, and are willing to push the issue.

my whole point is - if an extended contract is sold to a consumer - the retailer is obligated to uphold the contracts stipulations. if the contract says repair or replace for any reason - it would be impossible to abuse it. and fall back on the retailer - if it is big problem - then the retailer needs to rework the contract to avoid 'abuse'.

calling someone immoral, and disrespectful for actually using the extended service is absurd.

personally i don't plan on using the one i bought unless i need to.
but it is good to know i can return it if need be.


12/18/2004 12:12:13 PM · #31
Originally posted by mffnqueen:
Whoa, hey now.. Integrity didn't go anywhere, I'm still an ethical person!!


The fact of whether you are an ethical person or not is a judgement best left to others. Has anyone ever posted that they are an unethical person?

In my mind, your case in not helped much by the misleading title you gave to this thread. You did not, as the title implies, get a 20D for $300. You got a 20D for $300 plus what you paid for the Rebel.

And just who do you think takes up the slack for the extra cost the retailer incurs when a person pays for one Rebel with extended warranty and winds up getting four Rebels? Do you think the company is going to report lower profits to their shareholders? Or are they going to pass the extra costs on to other customers who buy Rebels, extended warranties, and other products? Your savings came at the expense of other customers.
 12/18/2004 01:30:31 PM · #32
Ha! I knew it! The moment I saw this thread when it started, I just knew someone was going to go ape$hit over the ethics of it all. So predictable.
 12/18/2004 01:36:13 PM · #33
this is my last post on this subject

the cost of her use of the extended warranty is made up before she returns the item. these companies have a clue as to how many people are going to return stuff, and figure that into the cost of the extended warranty itself. why do you suppose the cost is roughly 10% of the total cost of the item? maybe because they have figured that only 10% of the people who buy them are going to use them... so for every 100 cameras they sell with an extended warranty - 10 people return them.
the camera cost the consumer $1000, the warranty $100.
so they made an extra $10,000 on extended warranties, on top of the profit from the camera. if the camera cost them $500 ( $50,000 profit from selling 100 of them at $1000 each ) - 20 of 100 people would have to return them for them to lose all the profit from the extended warranties alone. that's with out eating into the profit they made on the sale of the camera itself. 20 of 100 is twice what they expect to be returned. and so by the numbers they are still profiting off the unused extended warranties... and pulling their expected profit from the sale of the camera itself.

when in a given year or quarter they realize more than 10 in 100 are being replaced - they either - change their return policy accordingly ( risking losing some business ) or raise the cost of the extended warranty based on the new number of returned items. ( keeping all the customers happy, and still MAKING MONEY!!! )

ask costco what their return policy is - if you have the box and the receipt you can return anything for any reason. on top of that they don't replace the item - but give you CASH. you don't even need to purchase a warranty to take advantage of this.

any one who thinks these big box stores don't know how to make money, and how to anticipate a profit margin is crazy.

i will metion again - i have never returned things in this manner.
just trying to point out how it really works.

Message edited by author 2004-12-18 14:43:59.
 12/18/2004 01:55:34 PM · #34
I read an article the day before yesterday about extended warranties and how they are 40-80% pure profit for the stores who sell them. Consumer Reports stated that only 8% of digital cameras need to be repaired or replaced during the first three years of use, and that the price of the warranty itself usually is the same amount you would spend on a repair if you needed one. There are some items that CR recommends purchasing extended warranties for, however (article is below). Regardless, I would not feel bad at all if my camera had a legitimate problem and I took it in during my extended warranty period (yes, I got one...prior to reading the article) and got a new one or an upgrade.

Extended warranties: Almost never worth buying

01:53 PM CST on Thursday, December 9, 2004

Consumer Reports

We spend more than $4 billion a year on extended warranties for appliances and electronic equipment. These warranties promise to repair or replace an item if it breaks after the manufacturer's warranty runs out. But Consumer Reports' Kim Kleman says data shows extended warranties are almost never worth buying.

"In surveys of our subscribers, we've found that you'll often pay as much for the extended warranty as you would for any repairs during that time," Kleman said.

And that's if you need any repairs at all during the warranty period. Consumer Reports says often you don't.

For projection TVs, for instance, the repair rate in the first three years is just 16 percent.

For conventional TVs, the repair rate is only 5 to seven percent.

For digital cameras and camcorders, the repair rate is 8 percent.

"Extended warranties are almost pure profit for the companies that offer them, because chances are you'll never use them," Kleman said.

One exception is laptop computers. "Laptops are expensive, and fragile and hard to repair," Kleman said, "so we do recommend an extended warranty, but get it from the computer manufacturer—not from the store where you bought the computer."

Treadmills and elliptical machines are two other products where an extended warranty is a good idea (if the manufacturer's warranty is short).

With so many moving parts, exercise machines are prone to problems, so a two- or three-year warranty is well worth it.

Before you buy an extended warranty, check to see whether your credit card provides similar coverage. Many card providers add a year to a manufacturer's warranty when you use the card to make the purchase.


12/18/2004 05:56:52 PM · #35
Originally posted by Bran-O-Rama:
You can't simply return a camera, everytime YOU get dust in it. I can understand if it were dusty out of the box, but that's not what is implied here. What has been suggested is that anytime your camera needs servicing for dust removal, simply get a new one. That's uncalled for.


It's not uncalled for when I paid extra specifically for that purpose. That's what extended warranties are for. Anyway, if Best Buy thinks that a dirty sensor should be repaired and not replaced, then that's fine, they can take my camera and ship it off. But that has never been an option. Every time I take it in, they give me a new one. I don't lie and say that it's a manufacturers defect, I don't yell and scream until I get what I want.. I simply take it in and say, my sensor is dirty, and they give me a new one. I don't understand why so many people are insisting that I'm somehow cheating or taking advantage of the system. I'm following the rules, and furthermore I'm paying extra for it.. How is that wrong?

Originally posted by coolhar:
In my mind, your case in not helped much by the misleading title you gave to this thread. You did not, as the title implies, get a 20D for $300. You got a 20D for $300 plus what you paid for the Rebel.

And just who do you think takes up the slack for the extra cost the retailer incurs when a person pays for one Rebel with extended warranty and winds up getting four Rebels? Do you think the company is going to report lower profits to their shareholders? Or are they going to pass the extra costs on to other customers who buy Rebels, extended warranties, and other products? Your savings came at the expense of other customers.


Okay, so I could have chosen a better title.. I didn't realize that eight words were going to cause such a fiasco. And to be frank, I don't really care how Best Buy handles the added cost. What you're telling me to do is like telling a senior citizen not to accept their Social Security check because eventually future generations will run out of money. It's not the customer's responsibility to monitor the logn term effects of the process. If it's such a problem, then Best Buy should change their policy. I'm following the rules, I'm doing only what I'm told to do by the Best Buy employees. I mean, honestly, what are you proposing that I do? Go in and throw a temper tantrum when they try to give me a new camera? Absolutely refuse to abide by their company policy and demand that they cart off my camera to a Canon dealer where I'll be without it for 4-6 weeks, even though I rely on my camera for my income? That's absurd. Yes, I am benefitting from the system, but it's a system that was in place long before I came along, not one I manipulated.

I'm a little (a lot!!!) hurt that so many people seem to be insisting that I'm such a deceitful, horrible person for this.. I don't understand what I did wrong here. I appreciate that you are all trying to push ethical behavior, but I'm not "getting something for nothing," I'm getting something for $100. I'm a broke college student.. Ten bucks is a huge amount for me to spare, let alone $100 (and another $150 for the 20D extended warranty), and all I'm doing is taking the warranty - which I purchased, for money, when I bought the camera, before anything went wrong, just like I was supposed to - and using it by the rules and guidelines set forth in the contract. Tell me again what's wrong with this picture...?

PS :: Rooster, this only works if you bought your camera at Best Buy AND bought the extended service plan at the time of purchase.. Sorry!!
 12/20/2004 08:50:24 AM · #36
Nothing. Some people just don't like reading other people's posts. They're too excited about having a chance to show the rest of the world how high their moral standards are.
 12/20/2004 09:13:16 AM · #37
The reality...

BestBuy takes the returned Rebel and sends it back to Canon. They receive full credit for it within 1 year of return. After that, the warranty company gets hit (more on this later). BestBuy's shareholders and customers are not impacted in the least bit. Only theft directly impacts customers and shareholders.

Canon takes the camera back, cleans the sensor, and resells it as reconditioned. Maybe a slight loss here on the resale but not much. It's the cost of doing business. They have a budget to accomodate this anyways.

The Extended warranty company might have lost $100 on this but it doesn't matter since there is roughly a 10:1 ratio of people that do not report claims compared to those that do. So in the end, they made $900 on customers that never reported claims. Plus, they take the returned camera and either sell it for parts or recondition it for resale. Did they really lose money? Or did they come out making money?

Congrats on a great experience mffnqueen. Without that warranty, this could have become a potentially negative experience for you. I'm glad Bestbuy made the best of it.
 12/20/2004 11:20:01 AM · #38
I have no disagreement with how the extended warranty system works as described by soup and Perez, or CR for that matter. However I stand by my position that someone who returns a camera four times for a new one is benefitting at the expense of some other buyers (at least at the expense of others who buy extended warranties for the product, if not a larger group) depending on how the seller allocates their costs.

The ethics question comes into play when you consider what is a "legitimate" reason to return a DSLR. Is it unreasonable to expect someone who says they "rely on my camera for my income" to be able to clean it's sensor?
 12/20/2004 12:02:38 PM · #39
The point that he is making is that under the warranty that he PAID for dust on the sensor is an acceptable reason for return. He is within his rights to return a camera with such a problem, and so is anyone who pid for that warranty. If the people offering that warranty see that they are losing money because of this offer they can change the terms of the warranty. In the meantime he is using the system, not abusing it. If people pay the money for the warranty and then choose to clean their sensors instead of returning the camera they have every right to do so(it may be less hassle) but they can't complain about those who follow the rules.

A friend of mine plays squash seriously and all the high end rackets have an automatic return policy. He can put a racket in a vice and saw it in half in front of them and they would still give him a new one. It would be a waste of a good racket but still perfectly legal. In the case with the camera he is even returning a perfectly usable and resalable camera to them.
 12/20/2004 12:27:51 PM · #40
Originally posted by coolhar:
However I stand by my position that someone who returns a camera four times for a new one is benefitting at the expense of some other buyers (at least at the expense of others who buy extended warranties for the product, if not a larger group) depending on how the seller allocates their costs.


As several posters have already demonstrated, that is not the case. No one ends up paying extra just because I followed the rules ethically and legitimately.

Originally posted by coolhar:
The ethics question comes into play when you consider what is a "legitimate" reason to return a DSLR. Is it unreasonable to expect someone who says they "rely on my camera for my income" to be able to clean it's sensor?


And who decides whether a reason is "legitimate" or not? Certainly not the consumer, we can't trust those horrible dishonest everyday people to determine what's acceptable or not.. That decision would be better left up to the company, AND IT IS, and they set forth a list of acceptable reasons for return, INCLUDING A DIRTY SENSOR. Thus, my actions were 100% legitimate, and I still don't understand how you can insist otherwise.

Perhaps it's reasonable to expect me to clean my own sensor, but I will never, ever do it. You can complain all you want about that, but that puppy is way too sensitive and delicate for me to mess around with it. I'm a clumsy ox, I would probably destroy the thing just trying to clear off a speck of dust. It's not gonna happen. And that's precisely the reason that I pay hundreds extra for extended warranties. So I can put them to use, just like I'm supposed to.
 12/20/2004 07:05:21 PM · #41
While I think that you definitely got better treatment than was called for, I agree that, based on your description of what happened with the dirty sensor returns, you certainly did nothing wrong, and it was Best Buy's decision to replace rather than clean so if there was anyone who was "responsible" for any "damage" done to anyone financially its Best Buy.

I think there's a little confusion of what an "extended warranty" really is, at least as sold by outfits like Best Buy. We all think of a warranty as covering "manufacturing defects" - i.e. it was broke when I bought it. But many of the extended warranties sold by the retailers are at least pitched (and with you, obviously they lived up to the pitch) as covering far beyond defective merchandise. Its more like insurance than a warranty. With car insurance, you pay a little extra beyond your car payment (OK, a lot extra) so that if something happens to your car, it gets fixed or replaced. Each extended warranty is unique in terms of how liberal it is with repairing or replacing the merchandise. Sounds like Stacy got one of the more liberal warranties as well as, perhaps, a more liberal store in terms of handling the warranty.

Stacy, what confuses me about this whole thing (and maybe why there's still a feeling that something is not "kosher") are these two things:

1) You said that what kicked this whole thing off was the issue of them messing up your credit card payments, triggering the interest charges. How does upgrading your camera change anything in that situation? You still had the original charge to be paid off on the original camera, regardless of what you did for the new one.

2) How did you manage to upgrade from a $1000 camera to a $1600 camera for $100? Or is Best Buy running a really hot deal on the 20D I'm not aware of (and if so, how do I take advantage of it!).

Just curious, since the thread is still around....
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