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05/26/2004 03:23:06 PM · #26 |
I'm liking this scenario alot, and not just for DPC. I do have a question/concern though...now we would only vote once, would it be beneficial to have some method of indicating challenge level submissions from apprentice level?
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05/26/2004 03:32:29 PM · #27 |
The challenge results do not always reflect the quality of the photographs, but frequently the subject of the photographs.
We all vote subjectively according to our tastes and perceptions. We all have seen photos score well below the top 10% that we felt deserved better.
So long as we have voting open to the entire membership this will not change, nor should it change. Photography, like art, is a subjective genre. There is no way to predict which technically competent photo will garner top honors, because the results are subject to individual's perceptions of what qualifies as a great photo.
DP Challenge is a learning experience, learning to produce photos that appeal to this voting membership. The membership of DP Challenge is made up of a fairly diverse group but still we have some things in common that affect the way we vote. Most of us own a digital camera and a computer. That puts us in a very select group not shared by 99% of the world's population.
Our consensus of what is a great photo may not play very well to the general population!
So just leave the system alone and be content to produce photos that you like.
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05/26/2004 03:48:12 PM · #28 |
The little guys w/ 3MP are not banished to the bottom. Sure, the right tools help but, when it comes down to it, talent as a combination of skill and creativity make the shot.
If one is brand new to photography, the chances of you shelling out 3500$ + for a great DSLR and lenses and all the bells and whistles are slim. Thus experience mostly coincides with the amount invested in equipment.
//www.dpchallenge.com/camera.php?CAMERA_ID=529
notes here 3 ribbons w/ this little 3.2 mp. 2 blues. all the shots on this page are great.
or even this camera
//www.dpchallenge.com/camera.php?CAMERA_ID=294
not even 2 MP and still a ribbon.
In my profile I quote myself which I stick by:
It's not the body
it's not the lens
it's the nut behind it all
that wins.
I do like the Eddy's idea. it may be interesting just to trial run and see how it works.
~jaimee |
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05/26/2004 04:20:02 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
The challenge results do not always reflect the quality of the photographs, but frequently the subject of the photographs.
We all vote subjectively according to our tastes and perceptions. We all have seen photos score well below the top 10% that we felt deserved better.
So long as we have voting open to the entire membership this will not change, nor should it change. Photography, like art, is a subjective genre. There is no way to predict which technically competent photo will garner top honors, because the results are subject to individual's perceptions of what qualifies as a great photo.
DP Challenge is a learning experience, learning to produce photos that appeal to this voting membership. The membership of DP Challenge is made up of a fairly diverse group but still we have some things in common that affect the way we vote. Most of us own a digital camera and a computer. That puts us in a very select group not shared by 99% of the world's population.
Our consensus of what is a great photo may not play very well to the general population!
So just leave the system alone and be content to produce photos that you like. |
Very well said. I think we all need to remember this fact before we see the need to complain about the results of a particular photo in a challenge. Some of my most adored photographic techniques and subjects will never find their way to this site, knowing that the response would be largely negative. Nothing wrong with it, that's just the way it is. |
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05/26/2004 04:34:15 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by bledford:
Originally posted by ElGordo:
So long as we have voting open to the entire membership this will not change, nor should it change. |
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I think the latest couple of responses may not have seen the shifts lately in the conversation. It seems that EddyG sort of fleshed out a system where voting is open to the entire membership and would not change. The only thing that would change is that in addition to keeping track of average score and such, there would be 2 categories that users would fall into: Apprentice and Challenge. Both being able to receive awards; simply doubling the number of awards and helping to inspire other to continue trying to become better photographers...
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 18:45:47.
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06/07/2004 04:19:49 PM · #31 |
I totally agree that EddyG's new scoring system is the best idea I've heard yet. This is really good news for those of us who are just-above-average photographers (like myself) who want to get our work out there for the DPC public to see and, if we're lucky, win a ribbon or two. I had a 5.5 average but the last challenge lowered my average to 5.46 or whatever. Based on my current skills I'd be in the Apprentice level and wouldn't mind at all given the chance at a ribbon for sure. Plus I know I cannot compete skills-wise against the top ribbon earners of this site at the moment. But that is why I am here, to learn new skills and hone existing ones.
I also think this will help train people to recognize what constitues a good photograph from a bad one. I see this all too often. There are entries that have LOTS of compression, way oversharpened or have poor color correction yet they place quite high in the challenges. Personally I deduct points if I see those types of qualities. Like tipping in a restaurant, they start out with 20% and lose points if they don't provide good and consistent service throughout the meal. I vote the same way on challenges. They start out with 10 points and if they don't meet certain criteria points are deducted.
Sorry for that tangent but I felt it was relevant to the whole idea of how points are awarded to earn the right to be in the Challenge level.
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06/07/2004 06:39:30 PM · #32 |
Would some sort of domain specialisation added to Eddy's proposal, address KarenB's concerns ?
The people who are great at macro work, may well be terrible at portrait work. Sports photography probably doesn't immediately mean you are excellent at still-life or poetic interpretations.
Perhaps we could rustle up 5 broad categories that every challenge could be bundled in to, and you would have to 'qualify' for challenge status in each of those sections. Otherwise, you'd be in the pot with everyone else until you prove yourself ?
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12/01/2004 06:02:18 PM · #33 |
While I agree that this is an awesome, and very well thought idea. I must say I think the only way to 'help' people is change the way you vote. I still find it very odd the way photos are handled here. If you look for photos there are catagories. When you submit, you pick a catagory. Yet when you vote, you vote a portrait against a landscape against a bug. I find it troubling that people do this without flinching an eye. I don't understand how you could say 'this landscape is better than this portrait' when they are clearly two different types of photography, two different styles, two completely different ideas. It's in my experience (which isn't much) people would hang a bad landscape before a great portrait of someone else (rockstars, movie stars and like famous or infamous people excluded) and I think this matters more than alot would like to admit here.
I like the levels idea but would like to see some kind of catagorizing involved. I'll probably never submit a landscape so why am I judged with them? Maybe I'm alone on this but hey, that's what makes me. All in all I think I would like to see Eddy's idea put into effect, but with catagories so I could go against other portraits.
Before I get brow beat, I could also see a 'general' catagory for those who like the idea of viewing a bunch of different types and styles in the same challenge. I don't think it would be that much to ask to give folks a place to be great at what they are great at. I also realize that this sort of idea would be almost impossible with the way challenges are constructed in their current state. I also realize there would need to be a few more challenges to embrace the different catagories,,,, or would there? why not let those 'gallery' choice boxes do a little more work. I assume an extra page would be needed to pick which stuff you were voting on. But all in all I think the Admins are talented folks who would have no problem implementing this sort of thing into an already wonderfuly exciting, enjoyable and irritating site :)
Joe
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12/01/2004 07:02:59 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by ericsuth:
Although I love frogs, insects, and other macro shots, I PERSONALLY want to work on and put emphasis on people. I'd like to know if creating forums or having subsections/challenges more tailored to the various categories such as Macro, People, Landscape, and Machinery would interest others and help keep membership up at the site. As it seems now, most challenges are geared more to inanimate objects. |
And yet, five of the present six ribbon shots are portraits ...
I have a problem with Eddy's proposed scoring system. An area it doesn't adddress is the overwhelming number of shots that are entered apparently just to have a shot in the challenge - the 'update junkies', if you like. In fact, it actually encourages more entries, since winning points for 30% upwards makes folks think they stand a good chance of at least one point.
It also makes no allowance for those who do not submit with the primary aim of winning ribbons - I always mention these guys, but both Imagineer and Zeus Zen are enormously valued members of this site, and are certainly not trying to win ribbons most of the time, they're just submitting the stuff they shoot - they just like the audience they get here, I think. it would be a shame to move even a little further away from that encouragement.
There are complaits that it isn't a level playing field. Well, why should it be? The point of the site has never been to hand out gold stars to all and sundry, has it? I like the fact that it's damned hard to win a ribbon, for the vast majority of us - and actually, even the ribbon hogs don't find it the walk in the park some folks think it is for them (I'm guessing, but am sure Heida, Kiwiness, Dsidwell, JJ, etc. would agree). You don't need the top gear, you don't need a lifetime's experience to win, you 'just' need to shoot the right kind of great photograph.
And I also would argue in favour of the place being a little dispiriting at first. I remember my first entry, and my disappointment and indeed some degree of anger at it's score. But it helped me learn, once I'd decided that maybe folks were right, rather than just being unfair to me. If there isn't that hurdle to be got over, there will be far more submitters - and what we need here are the committed photographers and site participants, not everyone with a camera and a computer.
It's not like the site's doing so very badly, is it?
Ed |
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12/01/2004 07:44:09 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by e301:
..........................
It's not like the site's doing so very badly, is it?
Ed |
What he said! |
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12/02/2004 07:55:34 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
... I still find it very odd the way photos are handled here. If you look for photos there are catagories. When you submit, you pick a catagory. Yet when you vote, you vote a portrait against a landscape against a bug. I find it troubling that people do this without flinching an eye. I don't understand how you could say 'this landscape is better than this portrait' when they are clearly two different types of photography, two different styles, two completely different ideas.
... Joe |
I think you missed the point of the challenges. While you are free to vote as you like, the purpose is not to rate a portrait against a landscape or anything else -- it is to rate how well that particular photo expresses the challenge theme.
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re: Eddy's proposal
Having one big pot for the voting and then breaking them apart based on photographer level doesn't seem like something that would work in practice. Consider: It would be completely possible for the top rated photos to be submitted by Apprentice level photographers -- say the the votes fell A1,A2,C1,C2,A3,A4,A5,A6,C3; the 3rd place photo would receive a Blue? ...the 9th placed photo a Red? It seems to diminish the value of the ribbons. If they are to be voted upon together, they really should be recognized together. IMO, of course.
David
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12/02/2004 10:27:13 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by e301:
There are complaits that it isn't a level playing field. Well, why should it be? The point of the site has never been to hand out gold stars to all and sundry, has it? I like the fact that it's damned hard to win a ribbon, for the vast majority of us
Ed |
Finally, some common sense (above).
Why does every 4th grader get straight A's in school?
Why does every 10 year old little league baseball player get a trophy at the end of the season?
Why should every member of this site be an award winning photographer?
The only way to improve is to go head-to-head against top-notch talent.
Keep the site the way it is. It's great... and very challenging!
Message edited by author 2004-12-02 10:29:50. |
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12/02/2004 11:34:30 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
[quote=magicshutter] ... I still find it very odd the way photos are handled here. If you look for photos there are catagories. When you submit, you pick a catagory. Yet when you vote, you vote a portrait against a landscape against a bug. I find it troubling that people do this without flinching an eye. I don't understand how you could say 'this landscape is better than this portrait' when they are clearly two different types of photography, two different styles, two completely different ideas.
... Joe |
I think you missed the point of the challenges. While you are free to vote as you like, the purpose is not to rate a portrait against a landscape or anything else -- it is to rate how well that particular photo expresses the challenge theme.
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While I respect your willingness to point out how things should be, it's not how they are. Once you grant prize (material or not doesn't matter) it becomes more than seeing how your photo rates. I meet the challenge every time and people nit pick against it. I do realize it's the individual perogitive of the voter to vote how he/she see's fit but I gaurantee you if you serperated the styles the voting would follow.
You can say it's not one against the other, but what else is it? It's a contest... It's sort of like putting mario andretti in a formula one car and beavis and butthead in a ford pinto and saying it's not about beating the other driver, it's about finishing the race.. We all know that's the type of thing we are told as youths and it sticks today. In the real world no one cares how you play the game. I gaurantee if you took away the 'prestige' of a ribbon, alot of people would stop participating because what would be the point?
Joe
Edit: If this were to see how well you express a theme, people would do alot better myself included. It's really a 'you didn't do what I would have done so it's wrong' type of thing.
Message edited by author 2004-12-02 11:35:58.
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12/02/2004 11:42:04 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by rd_325:
Originally posted by e301:
There are complaits that it isn't a level playing field. Well, why should it be? The point of the site has never been to hand out gold stars to all and sundry, has it? I like the fact that it's damned hard to win a ribbon, for the vast majority of us
Ed |
Finally, some common sense (above).
Why does every 4th grader get straight A's in school?
Why does every 10 year old little league baseball player get a trophy at the end of the season?
Why should every member of this site be an award winning photographer?
The only way to improve is to go head-to-head against top-notch talent.
Keep the site the way it is. It's great... and very challenging! |
I dont know what school you went to, but I was never passed without passing. Or trophied without winning.
Here's a prime example of my last post.. Not to single out this person but..... 'Why should every member of this site be an award winning photographer?' Yet it's supposed to be about fun and learning????
This is the sort of double standard that always seems to peek out.
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