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06/15/2004 07:37:15 PM · #26
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Another option would be to use multiple Canon flash units (420EX & 550EX 's), controlled either by a 550EX or the STE-2 IR Controller. Yo can set these up on stands and attach umbrellas and/or softboxes to them as well. The stands, brackets and umbrellas/softboxes are relatively cheap. The flash units are still pretty expensive (550EX is about $300 US, I think the 420EX is about $170, but can't be used as a master, only a slave) Obviously, this option is not going to have the OOMPH or the instantaneous recycle time that a pack or monolight system will have. But unless you need to shoot moving subjects in the studio @ f32, or need to shoot at the fastest frame rate you can, this may be OK.

I think I like this idea because I already have one 550EX. Question: With the ST-E2 transmitter, what receives the IR signal? Would I need some type of receiver on the remote flash(es), or is that functionality built into the 550EX?


06/15/2004 07:55:54 PM · #27
Originally posted by EddyG:

Although Kevin seems to have been "spoiled", I still think that Alien Bees (or their "big brother", White Lightning) are great bang-for-the-buck monolights (no "pack" required), and that is what I plan on using in my "basement studio". It would be great to go with the "Ferrari" of strobes and get the best, but cost is a big factor for me, and the performance of Paul C. Buff's strobes seem like they will be a good "fit". I've read that all of the accessories they sell are quite good, the only thing folks don't seem to recommend are their softboxes. (The fact that they have the custom "Vagabond" battery power supply for their lights is also pretty enticing, making it possibile to use their strobes in remote locations without a generator.)

Yes, I checked out the ABs on their web site and the system looks pretty slick. Their prices seem pretty good too, when compared to most other brands. I̢۪m keeping these in mind. BTW, what do you suppose is wrong with their softboxes?

Originally posted by EddyG:

Like Spazmo mentioned, I've had (what I perceive to be) decent results using the ST-E2 on-camera to trigger 550EX/420EX's mounted on stands firing into umbrellas.

This is also a definite possibility. Since I already have one 550EX, it wouldn̢۪t take too much money to get a nice lightweight, versatile setup going this route. Although, I still haven̢۪t ruled out a pack or mono setup yet.

Thanks for the great info!

--Mick

06/15/2004 08:56:16 PM · #28
Originally posted by micknewton:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Another option would be to use multiple Canon flash units (420EX & 550EX 's), controlled either by a 550EX or the STE-2 IR Controller. Yo can set these up on stands and attach umbrellas and/or softboxes to them as well. The stands, brackets and umbrellas/softboxes are relatively cheap. The flash units are still pretty expensive (550EX is about $300 US, I think the 420EX is about $170, but can't be used as a master, only a slave) Obviously, this option is not going to have the OOMPH or the instantaneous recycle time that a pack or monolight system will have. But unless you need to shoot moving subjects in the studio @ f32, or need to shoot at the fastest frame rate you can, this may be OK.

I think I like this idea because I already have one 550EX. Question: With the ST-E2 transmitter, what receives the IR signal? Would I need some type of receiver on the remote flash(es), or is that functionality built into the 550EX?


Both the 550EX and 420EX have IR receivers built-in. The 550EX also has the transmitter, and can do everything the ST-E2 can do, but can obviously act as a flash too. (It can be set to not flash as well, but evidently the pre-flash will still fire)
06/15/2004 10:44:55 PM · #29
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by micknewton:

I think I like this idea because I already have one 550EX. Question: With the ST-E2 transmitter, what receives the IR signal? Would I need some type of receiver on the remote flash(es), or is that functionality built into the 550EX?


Both the 550EX and 420EX have IR receivers built-in. The 550EX also has the transmitter, and can do everything the ST-E2 can do, but can obviously act as a flash too. (It can be set to not flash as well, but evidently the pre-flash will still fire)

Doh! Of course! I knew that. I justâ€Â¦ ummâ€Â¦ forgot for a moment. :) It’s one of the reasons that I bought the 550EX. Thanks for reminding me!

--Mick
06/19/2004 07:01:57 PM · #30
I think I̢۪m going to buy a couple of inexpensive monolights, rather than a second 550EX. Would any of you recommend either of these lights? Are there any that I should not consider? Any not listed that I should consider? I'm especially interested in the less expensive lights like the SP-Systems, Smith-Victor, or Paterson units.

I̢۪ve included what I thought were pros and cons for each light. I will appreciate any info that anyone might offer.

SP-Systems Excalibur 3200 - 320W/S Monolight $239
Pros: Free umbrella, lightstand, and softbox
Cons: No auto-dump, no fan, 9V sync

Smith-Victor SM300I 300W/S Monolight $249
Pros: Light (1lb 14oz),
Cons: Flash not infinitly variable (rocker switch?), no auto-dump, no fan, 9V sync

Paterson Interfit Color Flash 300W/S Monolight $249
Pros: Stepless 4 F-Stop range
Cons: Flashtube not replaceable, no auto-dump, no fan, 8V sync

Hensel Integra 500W/S Monolight $489
Pros: 500W/S, stepless 5 F-Stop range, 300W modeling light, fan, auto-dump
Cons: More expensive, 20V sync

Photogenic Powerlight 1250C - 500W/S Monolight $503
Pros: 500W/S, stepless 6 F-Stop range, 250W modeling light, 5V sync, fan, auto-dump, free umbrella
Cons: More expensive

Bowens Esprit II 500 - 500W/S Monolight $549
Pros: 500W/S, Stepless 6 F-Stop range, 275W modeling light, fast recycle, auto-dump
Cons: More expensive, heavier, 15V sync, no fan

--Mick
06/19/2004 07:12:30 PM · #31
Originally posted by micknewton:

I think I̢۪m going to buy a couple of inexpensive monolights, rather than a second 550EX. Would any of you recommend either of these lights? Are there any that I should not consider? Any not listed that I should consider? I'm especially interested in the less expensive lights like the SP-Systems, Smith-Victor, or Paterson units.

I̢۪ve included what I thought were pros and cons for each light. I will appreciate any info that anyone might offer.

SP-Systems Excalibur 3200 - 320W/S Monolight $239
Pros: Free umbrella, lightstand, and softbox
Cons: No auto-dump, no fan, 9V sync

Smith-Victor SM300I 300W/S Monolight $249
Pros: Light (1lb 14oz),
Cons: Flash not infinitly variable (rocker switch?), no auto-dump, no fan, 9V sync

Paterson Interfit Color Flash 300W/S Monolight $249
Pros: Stepless 4 F-Stop range
Cons: Flashtube not replaceable, no auto-dump, no fan, 8V sync

Hensel Integra 500W/S Monolight $489
Pros: 500W/S, stepless 5 F-Stop range, 300W modeling light, fan, auto-dump
Cons: More expensive, 20V sync

Photogenic Powerlight 1250C - 500W/S Monolight $503
Pros: 500W/S, stepless 6 F-Stop range, 250W modeling light, 5V sync, fan, auto-dump, free umbrella
Cons: More expensive

Bowens Esprit II 500 - 500W/S Monolight $549
Pros: 500W/S, Stepless 6 F-Stop range, 275W modeling light, fast recycle, auto-dump
Cons: More expensive, heavier, 15V sync, no fan

--Mick


Have you looked at the Alien Bees?

For $360 you can get a 1 light setup with stand & umbrella

Beginner Bee

for $599 (just a bit more than your highest priced single light, you can get a 2 light kit from Alien Bees

Digi Bee Kit
06/19/2004 09:16:54 PM · #32
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Have you looked at the Alien Bees?

Yes, I have checked them out on their web site. I didn̢۪t list them in my post because B&H doesn̢۪t sell them. However, they appear to be very nice lights. I like that they have automatic cooling fans and auto-dump to remove the excess charge when the flash power is adjusted from a higher to a lower setting. I̢۪ve never used a monolight before, but I̢۪d guess that the auto-dump feature is very nice to have. What happens when you lower the power on a light that doesn̢۪t have it? Wouldn̢۪t it still flash at the previous setting?

Anyway, to fit this into my list, it would look something likeâ€Â¦

AlienBees B800 320W/S Monolight $279
Pros: Stepless 5 F-Stop range, auto-dump, fan, 6V sync
Cons: More expensive

Which puts it on the expensive end of the 300W/S lights, but the auto-dump, fan, and 6V sync might be worth the extra cash. It̢۪s definitely another one to consider. Thanks for the info Dan!

B&H also has some nice kits using the less expensive monolightsâ€Â¦

SP-Systems Excalibur 2 Light 640 W/S Kit $549

Smith-Victor FL240 3 Light 600 W/S Kit $569

Photogenic StudioMax II 3 Light 800 W/S Kit $789

Does anybody have experience with any of these lights, or kits?

--Mick
06/20/2004 11:07:02 AM · #33
bump
06/20/2004 11:57:31 AM · #34
I'd definitely recommend the Alien Bees. They are very highly regarded strobes. And you can bump up the modeling lights to 150W with a quick trip to Home Depot. Plus, they have a lot of nice-quality, yet affordable, lighting modifiers that fit their lights. It is nice to stick with one "lighting system" so everything "works together". (I'm talking about grids, barn doors, gel holders, etc. That sort of thing. Obviously an umbrella will work with just about any light...) Other "accessories" to consider are things like the 4-channel wired remote control for $100 that allows you to remotely adjust the power and modeling lamp modes of 4 lights. Very cool "add-on" that some of the other vendors you are considering might not offer.

Don't forget that Watt-Seconds are a "funky" measurement -- it is only a measure of electrical energy, and does not take into account considerations such as flashtube efficacy, or flash capacitor/flashtube energy transfer efficiency. The Alien Bees pack a lot of "punch", hence the reason why the B800 is rated as 800 "effective" watt-seconds. You're getting a more powerful strobe. (A highly efficient 320ws system may produce as much actual light energy as an inefficient system rated at 1000ws).

Message edited by author 2004-06-20 14:26:33.
06/21/2004 12:57:29 AM · #35
Originally posted by EddyG:

I'd definitely recommend the Alien Bees. They are very highly regarded strobes.[snip]

Yes, the AlienBees have a nice set of features, and an attractive price too. I̢۪m definitely taking a good long look at their products.

One problem I̢۪m having is the longer I look at all of this lighting equipment the more goodie$ I̢۪m adding to my list. :)

--Mick

06/21/2004 01:29:08 AM · #36
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Just what little I can offer. I hope others with much more experience can "enlighten" this thread.

Kev

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions. The information was very helpful and I appreciate it very much. It was very interesting to hear about your experience with the rented studio equipment. Just out of curiosity, about how much did it cost you to rent the equipment?

BTW, I̢۪m sorry it took me so long to write this. I̢۪ve been spending a lot of time on the computer researching this stuff. You, EddyG, Spazmo99, Olyuzi, and the others that contributed to this thread have all been a lot of help. Thanks folks!

--Mick
06/25/2004 02:34:22 AM · #37
Originally posted by EddyG:

I'd definitely recommend the Alien Bees. They are very highly regarded strobes.[snip]

Okay Eddy, you talked me into it. I placed an order today for two B400 monolights, two 13̢۪ stands, two boom arms, and two medium Octaboxes. I should have them by the end of next week--just in time to be too late for the Color Studio Portrait challenge. :)

Actually, I spent quite a bit of time comparing features, prices, etc., and the AlienBees seemed to be the best bang for the buck that I could find. I came close to ordering a set of JTL Versalight 500s. Nice lights, but the price was a little more than I was willing to spend.

So, I guess all I have to do now is learn how to use them. Thanks for the tip!

--Mick
06/25/2004 03:55:06 AM · #38
Originally posted by micknewton:

Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Just what little I can offer. I hope others with much more experience can "enlighten" this thread.

Kev

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions. The information was very helpful and I appreciate it very much. It was very interesting to hear about your experience with the rented studio equipment. Just out of curiosity, about how much did it cost you to rent the equipment?

BTW, I̢۪m sorry it took me so long to write this. I̢۪ve been spending a lot of time on the computer researching this stuff. You, EddyG, Spazmo99, Olyuzi, and the others that contributed to this thread have all been a lot of help. Thanks folks!

--Mick


You can find several studios for rent on OMP and they range in price around $200 USD for a half day to $350-500 for a whole day. Studios rent lighting differently but the location I chose rented the lighting setup for about $25 for a light and a powerpack and $15 for just a light (included speed ring, softbox, light stand, power connector, gels, etc). By far and away the biggest expense I incurred was the wind machine. It was a professional grade blower for construction companies; ostensibly to help dry poured concrete or to create a draft to help dry paint, who really knows what they use it for, I just know that they will rent it for $75 per day as long as they don't have it on a construction site. It had a variable speed that ran from something I'd have sitting in my office to just create a slight breeze up to a speed that had to have someone hold the machine because it'd blow a TON of air.

All things totaled up cost under $300 for 4 hours in studio with 5-6 lights used throughout the segment. I fronted the money and the model contracted with me for a portion of hey pay if she got the modeling contract. It appears that it was not only a good experience but also one that paid off. We heard back the day after we sent the photos to the publisher.
06/25/2004 04:25:05 AM · #39
I took a day off to just cruise around to some photo shops one day this week and checked out lighting. None of the stores in Atlanta (that I found) had powerpacks and heads on their floor. It seems that they all sell monolights. I priced out sets of 5 or 6 monos with stands, remote controls, speed rings, LiteDome softboxes, barn doors, snoots, grids, etc. The best price I got was on the Photogenic Powerlights 1250, 500ws lights for just under $5K. Of course, that's retail but since I could order from out of state, almost all those were quoted to me without tax and I was told to order them off the company's website.

If that was what I wanted to get, I'd probably go with White Lightning over the Alien Bees. #1 its a local company in my state so it'd be nice to keep those dollars at home but I've also seen a couple of commercial commodity studios with White Lightnings and they seem to be OK. My brother-in-law works in a studio in Ohio that uses them, they have WL's in their portrait studio but its made for high volume, "bring the kiddies in, cause it'll make money" kind of business. Locally a studio about 10 minutes from my house uses WL for its stand alone, "bring the kiddies in, cause it'll make money" business. I know another photog locally who does a slightly more artistic business and actually changes the settings on his lights from time-to-time and he uses WL's, too. Guess what I'm saying is that I've seen them in action and they seem to produce photos that people will easily pay for to support a business. I plan on a different style of use. I don't want to photograph kids (other than my own or for some friends). I don't enjoy trying to take shots for people to buy wallet sized and cut up to give out to family members. I enjoy shooting with models. Since I have to have something to compensate them for their time and I've seen the difference in quality of shots based on the quantity of dollars thrown at the situation, I think that until I start shooting more artistic shots I would like to offer the highest quality photographs I can. Shooting with $10,000 lighting system seems to have a more even quality of light than with $5,000. That's not just my limited experience, that's from people who've been shooting modeling sessions that I aspire to. I sought out the opinions of several people and discussed the relative qualities of monolights vs powerpacks and lamp heads in a fast refresh, quantity of light, consistency of color just for studio work and I repeatedly heard from the guys and girls that responded that the more you invest in lights, the less you have to rebuy later and the better quality and control you have. If you're just learning and don't think you'd need a light system for the next 20 years or you just want something to shoot with in your home studio then surely almost any of those lights will work to give you photos that you can easily sell to people and have them thrilled to put up on their wall. I have no disdain for that. Go for it and I think that's exactly the market at which those products aim their products. The difference in my "spoiled" experience is that some young man or lady is going to go down to Miami or Atlanta or up to Boston and take some of my photos and put them into a book right beside someone else who has a professional fashion studio and I want to eventually be able to compete with the quality of photo produced. Sure, I need to develop my eye but that's the whole point of shooting as much as I do and seeking review of my work. In my experience and based on looking in the local market and solicit advice from fashion shooters, monolights just won't hold up to 1500-3000 flashes a day. The tubes will have to be replaced in any of the lights at that rate but the monolights just aren't built to disperse that kind of heat buildup without frying the boards in 'em nor are they designed to provide the same consistent color and quantity of light over an 8 hour shoot.

Go for what works for you. As I said in my initial post my only experience has been with lighting in a professional fashion studio (actually an old warehouse that the photog leased, cleaned up and put new power into to support the demands of the studio lighting). Oddly it seems that some people are intolerant of differences in intended purposes so I'll plainly say, Get what works for you, I'm only sharing my experience as one point of reference for you and I'm sure that others have different experiences and I further think that what I want or think that I need in no way detracts from your evaluation or satisfaction with a particular type of lighting system. Don't misconstrue my attempt to share my experience as an attack on other types of solutions. Don't assume that since I don't think a less expensive solution will be something I want to spend my money on that I think everyone should need to spend $10,000 on lighting equipment or that if they don't then they are lesser photographers or that they love their own craft less than I do. That is not my belief nor is it my intent. I merely shared my experience because you asked and I had just finished shooting in a studio recently.

Definitely share with us what you end up getting and let us know when they're coming in so we can share the excitement. I look forward to seeing your work.

Kev
06/25/2004 12:06:30 PM · #40
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Go for what works for you. As I said in my initial post my only experience has been with lighting in a professional fashion studio (actually an old warehouse that the photog leased, cleaned up and put new power into to support the demands of the studio lighting). Oddly it seems that some people are intolerant of differences in intended purposes so I'll plainly say, Get what works for you, I'm only sharing my experience as one point of reference for you and I'm sure that others have different experiences and I further think that what I want or think that I need in no way detracts from your evaluation or satisfaction with a particular type of lighting system. Don't misconstrue my attempt to share my experience as an attack on other types of solutions. Don't assume that since I don't think a less expensive solution will be something I want to spend my money on that I think everyone should need to spend $10,000 on lighting equipment or that if they don't then they are lesser photographers or that they love their own craft less than I do. That is not my belief nor is it my intent. I merely shared my experience because you asked and I had just finished shooting in a studio recently.

I don̢۪t plan on ever becoming a professional photographer, so I can̢۪t justify spending $10-20,000 for lighting equipment. Actually, I can̢۪t even justify spending the $947.43 I just put out for the AlienBees that I just ordered. For me, photography is just something that I like to do for fun, and the studio lights, softboxes, and stands are just new toys for me and my wife to play with and learn. However, I like to be reasonably good at what I do, whether it̢۪s work or play, and having the best equipment possible usually makes that easier. If I wanted to be a professional photographer, or even if our toy budget was larger, I would have bought several expensive pack & head setups, huge softboxes, and all the other goodies that go with them. There̢۪s nothing wrong with having the best possible tools for the job.

BTW, White Lightning and AlienBees are both divisions of Paul C. Buff, Inc., and they are both located in Tennessee. The flash units seem to have similar feature sets, with the White Lightning on the more powerful and expensive end.

I appreciate reading about your experiences with the studio equipment. It was very interesting and ‘enlightening’. The photos of thatâ€Â¦ ummâ€Â¦ healthy young model were nice to look at too. :) Thanks for sharing!

--Mick
06/25/2004 01:57:25 PM · #41
One word: STROBES.

Continuously lighting is a waste for photographers. They're usually expensive and don't give enough output.

Good systems such as Alien Bees will let you go a long way. You can use umbrellas, softboxes, etc. //www.alienbees.com for more info. You can create any lighting you want with strobes in a studio environment that you can do with continous lighting, but your electric bill will be much cheaper :-)

06/25/2004 02:05:31 PM · #42
Use a flash meter.... (and calibrate the meter to the camera).

You also have to be careful when mixing lights with different power ratings, sometimes they'll create color casts (uneven casts between one light versus another), particularly if you're using say the AB800 at full power and AB400 at 1/16 power.

Originally posted by EddyG:

I'd definitely recommend the Alien Bees. They are very highly regarded strobes. And you can bump up the modeling lights to 150W with a quick trip to Home Depot. Plus, they have a lot of nice-quality, yet affordable, lighting modifiers that fit their lights. It is nice to stick with one "lighting system" so everything "works together". (I'm talking about grids, barn doors, gel holders, etc. That sort of thing. Obviously an umbrella will work with just about any light...) Other "accessories" to consider are things like the 4-channel wired remote control for $100 that allows you to remotely adjust the power and modeling lamp modes of 4 lights. Very cool "add-on" that some of the other vendors you are considering might not offer.

Don't forget that Watt-Seconds are a "funky" measurement -- it is only a measure of electrical energy, and does not take into account considerations such as flashtube efficacy, or flash capacitor/flashtube energy transfer efficiency. The Alien Bees pack a lot of "punch", hence the reason why the B800 is rated as 800 "effective" watt-seconds. You're getting a more powerful strobe. (A highly efficient 320ws system may produce as much actual light energy as an inefficient system rated at 1000ws).
06/25/2004 02:09:46 PM · #43
Well I went thru the halogen work light phase of portrait photography. I got some great shots with them, but they are heavy, hot, and you are pretty much limited to one or two people. Not to mention, they aren't near bright enough for what I wanted.

A couple months ago, I bought a Britek kit. 2-440 ws strobes and a 160 ws strobe. the kit was $699 I think plus I bought an octagonal softbox for $89 from them too. I've found that until I get a new camera, I will pretty much be shooting everything at the fastest shutter speed at F/8 because that's as small as the aperture goes. I imagine I could try to shoot things slower if I turned the intensity down more, but the 440's are set to 1/2 power, I could turn them down to 1/4.

That's the biggest kick about them though is that they don't have more adjustment than that. Other than that, I've been pretty happy with them the little bit I've been able to use them. I didn't think I'd ever have to worry about too bright, but its definitely something I have to guard against now.

They aren't the best, but they are working for me and I definitely got a lot for the price... the 3 strobes, 2 big stands, one smaller stand, 3 reflectors, a honeycomb, snoot, cords, carry bag for the stands, carry bag for the strobes and other paraphenalia, and 2 umbrellas which I really didn't need. They pack down so all I have are the 2 bags, each of which has room to spare.

Bob
06/25/2004 05:00:02 PM · #44
Originally posted by paganini:

One word: STROBES.

Continuously lighting is a waste for photographers. They're usually expensive and don't give enough output.

Good systems such as Alien Bees will let you go a long way. You can use umbrellas, softboxes, etc. //www.alienbees.com for more info. You can create any lighting you want with strobes in a studio environment that you can do with continous lighting, but your electric bill will be much cheaper :-)

I placed an order with AlienBees yesterday. Monolights, boom stands, and softboxes. I can’t wait to play with ‘em. :)
06/25/2004 05:11:30 PM · #45
Originally posted by inspzil:

Well I went thru the halogen work light phase of portrait photography. I got some great shots with them, but they are heavy, hot, and you are pretty much limited to one or two people. Not to mention, they aren't near bright enough for what I wanted.

A couple months ago, I bought a Britek kit. 2-440 ws strobes and a 160 ws strobe. the kit was $699 I think plus I bought an octagonal softbox for $89 from them too. I've found that until I get a new camera, I will pretty much be shooting everything at the fastest shutter speed at F/8 because that's as small as the aperture goes. I imagine I could try to shoot things slower if I turned the intensity down more, but the 440's are set to 1/2 power, I could turn them down to 1/4.

That's the biggest kick about them though is that they don't have more adjustment than that. Other than that, I've been pretty happy with them the little bit I've been able to use them. I didn't think I'd ever have to worry about too bright, but its definitely something I have to guard against now.

They aren't the best, but they are working for me and I definitely got a lot for the price... the 3 strobes, 2 big stands, one smaller stand, 3 reflectors, a honeycomb, snoot, cords, carry bag for the stands, carry bag for the strobes and other paraphenalia, and 2 umbrellas which I really didn't need. They pack down so all I have are the 2 bags, each of which has room to spare.

Bob

Britek was one that I missed when I was shopping around. I̢۪ve never heard of them until now. It sounds like you got a nice deal from them. I hope they work out for you.

I̢۪m going to try this weekend to get a decent shot for the Color Studio Portrait challenge. It̢۪ll be about a week before I get my studio lights, so I̢۪m going to experiment with my halogen work lights and some type of diffusers (bed sheets?). Who knows, maybe I̢۪ll get lucky and no one else will enter.

Good luck with your new lights!

--Mick
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