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06/09/2004 05:41:47 PM · #1 |
Does anyone else here get a little tired of being referred to as "ignorant" or "not creative"? Just because I happen to prefer more mainstream shots, photos that meet the challenge in an obvious way, and subjects that I can relate to - I don't think it means I'm uneducated, not creative, or close-minded.
I've had some of my photos I've really liked do poorly. I may disagree and I may not understand the reasons why it did so poorly in the scoring....but I sure don't consider those who don't care for my shots "close minded" or ignorant.
I've seen very typical subjects captured in non-typical ways, and I've seen very unusal subjects captured in very typical ways. What is creative is not a black-and-white judgement to make.
I just feel like anything in the majority anymore is considered to be narrow-minded. If your own preference is unique, out of the majority, quirky in nature, then go for it. Thanks for adding variety to all of our lives and I wouldn't change that. It makes you different, not necessarily better. |
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06/09/2004 05:48:27 PM · #2 |
I agree. I hate it when "certain" people decide their shot is amazing and that I'm ignorant, and stupid, and an idiot with no taste, just because I don't like it.
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06/09/2004 05:49:16 PM · #3 |
I don't think they were talking about you. When someone says Ignorant voter, they are often referring to people who do not read the challenge rules (and vote without knowing what they are really voting on). I've heard it used to describe voters who vote without 'giving the photo a thought'. Usually when somone hardly looks at the photo for more than 1 second, they've been referred to that way at times I have noticed.
Personally, I vote according to quality, not taste. I may hate a photo (subject wise), but if it's a good photo, it's getting a high score. If it's a good photo and I love the subject, it's getting a very very high score!
I always look at photos for quality, lighting, clarity, artistic feel, composition, color, contrast, mood and then of course, subject matter. I know many people who do look at photos this way often get annoyed when others don't take any photographic qualities like these into consideration. It can be upsetting, but I wouldn't say ignorant because it sounds negative. I would just say they haven't been properly trained to critique. I can't even imagine how many people aren't trained in critiquing, it must be high! So, I can't take it personally or hold it against anyone. I hope that the ones who do know how to critique, will indeed do so. For those who don't know how, I hope they like my photo (in a general way).
All we can do is be tolerant & hopeful! :)
arie |
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06/09/2004 05:51:08 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Konador:
I agree. I hate it when "certain" people decide their shot is amazing and that I'm ignorant, and stupid, and an idiot with no taste, just because I don't like it. |
Aha ! |
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06/09/2004 05:51:43 PM · #5 |
I don't think you should be mixing up ignorance and closed-mindedness -- they are quite different beasts. One is a state of being, the other an attitude.
I'm a believer that the only "stupid" question is the one that goes unasked ... we all know differing amounts about everything, and part of our reason for being here is to share our knowledge in exchange for what others know. Anyone who can upload a JPEG image within the challenge deadline is not ignorant.
As for the types (and number of types) of images we like it is everyone's prerogative to like whatever they want. I'd prefer they at least listen to why I might like an image they don't (and vice versa), but they're under no obligation to change their opinion.
I do think people should express their own opinions without "calling other people names." |
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06/09/2004 05:53:20 PM · #6 |
Judy - having looked through a few pages of your comments, I don't think it's people like you that they/we are whingeing about. There's only one slight point I found - you say on one comment in the silhouettes challenge "when I think about Silhouettes I don't usually think about ..." photo subject, and go on to say "but in this case it works" or something. This implies to me that you're considering the challenge from pre-set idea of what would make a good subject, which i think is not a good approach, as it would seem to incline you away from the more surprising shots. However, as I said, it is only one slight thing - though it nicely sums up a sense that some people get of how their images are treated.
Secondly, never forget the silent majority :-) There is ever and anon another thread about misunderstood photos, and I'm sure absolutely every one of us suffers from it now and again (with the possible exception of Kiwi, who seems to have mind-set nailed). Quite often, there are a whole heap of problems in a shot before challenge subject becomes an issue, and some of the complainers don't see that.
I like the criticality of your comments, as far as I've read them. Too many folks IMO content themselves with saying nothing if they can't be praising - more power to you.
Ed
Message edited by author 2004-06-09 17:54:27.
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06/09/2004 05:55:08 PM · #7 |
Sorry, but I think that when you let 'the masses' decide on artistic value, you WILL end up with art that is less creative and on the edge. A lot of art that is most interesting and creative will only appeal to a niche minority. I do think that as someone who takes a lot of photos for DPC challenges, I am encouraged not to be too different, and to think about what would please 'mainstream' tastes. That's fine for me at the moment, as it gives me a chance to develop my technique. However, I think people are deluding themselves if they think this environment fosters originality and creativity.
Having said that, I agree that sometimes people are quick to blame this culture rather than their own talents. ;-) |
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06/09/2004 06:00:11 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
Personally, I vote according to quality, not taste. I may hate a photo (subject wise), but if it's a good photo, it's getting a high score. If it's a good photo and I love the subject, it's getting a very very high score! |
You sound the opposite to me, hehe. I just vote on how much I like a photo (after seeing whether it meets the challenge or not of course). I personally think that even if a photo is technically good with lighting, composition, etc, that I should necessarily vote it high. Same with the opposite, technically bad photos can sometimes be more appealing. Whats the point in a good technical photo if it's boring and doesn't do anything for me? Thats just the way I see it, and it's all based on opinion.
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
I know many people who do look at photos this way often get annoyed when others don't take any photographic qualities like these into consideration. It can be upsetting, but I wouldn't say ignorant because it sounds negative. I would just say they haven't been properly trained to critique. |
Well, I haven't been trained to critique, but I can definately do it well (I think). I just choose not to vote in this way because I prefer to vote by whether photos are appealing to me. I could vote the other way if I wanted but I dont wanna :)
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06/09/2004 06:04:08 PM · #9 |
IMHO an exceptional photo that does not meet the challenge should not score as highly as an average photo that does meet the challenge! In that case the 'ignorance' is with the submitter. Take Team Sports Without Players as an example, why should a picture clearly showing 'sportsmen' nomatter how well taken score any higher than someone submitting a picture of (say) a cat.
I vote for what I like and since this is a 'challenge' site the title of the challenge is always taken into account. Its been said before in here but I'll say it again.....
Your a pro fotog sent by your editor to take shots of (say) Euro 2004 and come back with a couple of gig worth of Superbowl shots, reckon you'll get paid??
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06/09/2004 06:04:29 PM · #10 |
I'm really not talking about a personal attack on me. I'm sure not a pro, but have had some nice remarks about my comments. I guess it's just an on-going topic of discussion here and I seldom have heard from the "other side" - those of us who actually LIKE mainstream subjects and obvious connections to the challenge.
I vote pretty much like most others, I think. I take into account a variety of factors and just because it's a photo I wouldn't put on my wall doesn't necessarily equate to a low score. As far as taking the time to vote intelligently, that goes for any photo, any subject and any challange. There may be more "depth" to an apparent mainstream sort of photo than the viewer realizes in a quick view. We would all hope that people take a bit of time with our shots, but that's not always the case reagardless of your photography style.
Ok..I'm done - I think :) |
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06/09/2004 06:12:02 PM · #11 |
I would say I was at least one of the people targeted as 'ignorant' in that last thread because the originator of the thread sent me a PM asking me to read it. LOL! I'm guessing he sent that PM to all the people who's comments he didn't check as helpful.
I had already read it an commented a few times by the time I got that message.
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06/09/2004 06:16:57 PM · #12 |
| I think that some people weight how well a photo fits the challenge more than other people. A great picture of a dog would still get a number of high votes in challenge about cats IMHO. |
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06/09/2004 06:17:03 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I don't think you should be mixing up ignorance and closed-mindedness -- they are quite different beasts. One is a state of being, the other an attitude.
I'm a believer that the only "stupid" question is the one that goes unasked ... we all know differing amounts about everything, and part of our reason for being here is to share our knowledge in exchange for what others know. Anyone who can upload a JPEG image within the challenge deadline is not ignorant.
As for the types (and number of types) of images we like it is everyone's prerogative to like whatever they want. I'd prefer they at least listen to why I might like an image they don't (and vice versa), but they're under no obligation to change their opinion.
I do think people should express their own opinions without "calling other people names." |
....ok, not done. Just wanted to mention that I used close-minded and ignorant as two different aspects of the judgements I'm referring to. I was not using the words to describe the same thing. I've seen BOTH words used to describe voters in a negative fashion. Given the choice, I'd rather be ignorant than close-minded.
To me, close-minded means not open to other interpretations. Ignorant means lacking an understanding of a subject. Two different things.
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06/09/2004 06:17:56 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
Personally, I vote according to quality, not taste. I may hate a photo (subject wise), but if it's a good photo, it's getting a high score. If it's a good photo and I love the subject, it's getting a very very high score! |
You sound the opposite to me, hehe. I just vote on how much I like a photo (after seeing whether it meets the challenge or not of course). I personally think that even if a photo is technically good with lighting, composition, etc, that I should necessarily vote it high. Same with the opposite, technically bad photos can sometimes be more appealing. Whats the point in a good technical photo if it's boring and doesn't do anything for me? Thats just the way I see it, and it's all based on opinion.
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I will give a photo I find boring but technically and compositionally good, a 5 (assuming it meets the challenge). Why should I say it's an outstanding photo just because it is in focus and follows the rules of thirds. Sometimes, a photo that captures a wonderful expression or moment may be have a little more clutter than it should or be a bit out of focus but to me that is better than the perfect macro shot of a ladybug.
I'd like to see some of those folks who seem to only take macro shots, no matter what the challenge, try a different lens and look around them at subjects that are more than 2" from their faces. Broaden your horizons, I say. It's a big world out there filled with people and objects that are bigger than 5 cm. :-D
Sorry for the ramble...I agree with Konador! |
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06/09/2004 06:18:46 PM · #15 |
I do believe that is is important to meet the challenge. Otherwise why have topics. However I do not automatically give out "1's" if I don't see the correlation between the topic and the image.
I do get tired of hearing about "postcard photography". I never took art appreciation in college, I thought those guys were geeks, but I know what I like. I also know a little about what makes an image technically correct, or difficult to produce.
When voting these are the things that I consider, whether or not I am fond of the subject. I have little interest in ballet, frogs, toads, or bunnies. But I have seen some beautifully done pictures of these things, and have scored them highly.
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06/09/2004 06:20:48 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by jpochard:
To me, close-minded means not open to other interpretations. Ignorant means lacking an understanding of a subject. Two different things. |
I agree :) |
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06/09/2004 06:25:19 PM · #17 |
Whatever the state of mind of our voters, they are the ones we rely on for honest subjective judgement of our efforts.
IMHO the voters perform superbly in that regard.
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06/09/2004 06:34:32 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Anyone who can upload a JPEG image within the challenge deadline is not ignorant. |
i wouldnt quite say that.. |
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06/09/2004 06:35:30 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Well, I haven't been trained to critique, but I can definately do it well (I think). I just choose not to vote in this way because I prefer to vote by whether photos are appealing to me. I could vote the other way if I wanted but I dont wanna :) |
That's also something I really like to see... someone who votes how they want to vote, but knows how to critique, regardless if they like the photo or not. Yes, we are opposites in the way we vote, but we both can appreciate the technical apsects. And for those who cannot, it's because they may possibly not know what to look for... that's perfectly fine :) Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion. That's what makes democracy so great!
I love that we have such diversity here. It's a great representation of the world and the "market" we'll be selling our photos to (if we choose to do so). It's definitely a learning experience, and I love it.
And just for the record, if a photo is technically perfect but I don't like the overall feel... when I said high, I meant over 5, not like 9 or anything.
What I really love is when you develope a system for yourself and use it! I really like that some people are very consistant in their scoring practice. It's nice to see! And I am not putting down those who are not consistant... I am just showing my extra joy for those who are! :) |
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06/09/2004 06:35:34 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jpochard:
To me, close-minded means not open to other interpretations. Ignorant means lacking an understanding of a subject. Two different things. |
I agree :) |
I agree, that ignorant has less negative conotations. It is certainly no lacking on my part, for instance to be ignorant of how to fly a plane. I did bristle a bit when I read today's previous thread. There are nicer ways of suggesting the idea he was getting at. I'm actually not ignorant of SCA events --- at any rate I'm not ignorant of their existance or the obsession some people have with role playing. I just don't agree that these events are team sports in the traditional view. One might argue this is close-minded of me but one would be stretching the notion of what sports are. :D
At any rate, I didn't shave from this gentleman's score for not meeting the challenge. I just suggested the connection to the challenge was tenuous.
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06/09/2004 06:39:22 PM · #21 |
| People who don't like my shots are either blind, clueless, odd, bereft of taste or probably smell of poo. Perhaps all of these. |
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06/09/2004 06:43:25 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
People who don't like my shots are either blind, clueless, odd, bereft of taste or probably smell of poo. Perhaps all of these. |
ROFLOL!!
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06/09/2004 06:55:39 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
I would say I was at least one of the people targeted as 'ignorant' in that last thread because the originator of the thread sent me a PM asking me to read it. LOL! I'm guessing he sent that PM to all the people who's comments he didn't check as helpful.
I had already read it an commented a few times by the time I got that message. |
OMG, that's shocking behaviour! Some people need to chill out! |
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06/09/2004 07:00:47 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
People who don't like my shots are either blind, clueless, odd, bereft of taste or probably smell of poo. Perhaps all of these. |
I'm glad I like your shots. But just to be sure I don't smell of poo, maybe I should put you in my favorites. I recall you have some candids I like quite a bit....plus your very handsome, stylish, you have a better job than me (doesn't matter what it is---it's better than none)...and you probably have a cool British accent.
Melissa |
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06/09/2004 07:02:20 PM · #25 |
I dunno... I'd prefer to have no job I think, hehe
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