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 03/29/2010 03:11:56 PM · #51
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I have seen many examples of two or more people shooting the same thing at the same time, and never felt especially annoyed at the "collaboration".

For example, the second and third place photos on the front page right now for "Night Shot V" were taken from the same spot, with two friends shooting together.
 03/29/2010 03:13:24 PM · #52
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by glad2badad:

I get the feeling that not everyone voiced a visible opinion either. The accumulated results for the Abstract Club entries came in with 360 1's versus 22 10's. With 12 entries that's an average of 30 1's and not quite 2 10's for each. That tells me that this wasn't received favorably.


Let's make a distinction here, though; we KNEW the images would be scored by most as DNMC: we didn't enter them expecting high scores, far from it. I don't think the fact that so many people gave the images very low votes necessarily means that most, or even many, of those voters also felt that we had somehow "done something wrong" by entering these images in the challenge.

Certainly, I've scored many images low on account of feeling they didn't meet a particular challenge, but I can't recall offhand getting ticked off that any of these were entered in the first place. Likewise, I have seen many examples of two or more people shooting the same thing at the same time, and never felt especially annoyed at the "collaboration". We're seeing a lot of same-subject entries from Judi and Brat, for example, because Brat is working for/with Judi...

The interesting thing here is that none of us had any influence over, or even awareness of, the others' entries (except inasmuch as some of us live with one of the others) until the challenge posted for voting. We just said to each other, "Wouldn't it be fun to do a 'catalog'?", agreed to make it a catalog of abstract art (it could have been clothing, it could have been shoes, it could have been anything, didn't matter really) and then we went out independently of any feedback and shot our entries. Not only that, we agreed not to vote on the challenge so there would be no hint of collusion whatsoever.

Honestly, I fail to see what the problem is...

R.


There really is none; and it's time for people to realize it and let it go. Even if it's being construed as a problem -- it really isn't one. There were no hurtful intentions, there was no collusion to screw up voting, there was no one trying to bring the challenges crashing to the sea. Whether or not people misunderstood the intention, there is not a problem here. Let it go, people! (And I don't understand why you didn't ask me to join! I'm so good at abstracts (not)). :P
 03/29/2010 03:17:30 PM · #53
if the DPL were in place, none of this hooplah would be happening.
 03/29/2010 03:24:53 PM · #54
2 minute search on Google found-
6,790,000 results for fine art catalog.
959,000 results for Abstract art catalog.
DNMC

Message edited by author 2010-03-29 15:26:22.
 03/29/2010 03:31:01 PM · #55
sweet
 03/29/2010 03:43:31 PM · #56
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by signal2noise:
I'm interested in the All Things Being Equal challenge, but would including 10 off-topic abstract images really be worthwhile to the voters? Possibly? Probably not.


Seriously, here's the thing of it:

1. Abstract art IS a "product", it's produced and sold all the time.

2. A common means of selling art is through shows, and shows have catalogs.

3. Therefore, the idea of a "catalog of abstract art" is not in the least far-fetched, and it definitely has some reference to the challenge theme embedded in it. Granted, it's an out-of-the-box take on the topic, but so what?

Seriously, man... It's not about what YOU (as a voter/viewer) want to find in or take from the challenge, it's about what all of US, as photographers, want to put into it... The viewer/voter has a tremendous amount of control over the "results" just by voting; the position you're taking goes even beyond that, basically excoriating people for not meeting your expectations of what they should enter.

As far as the "All Things Being Equal" challenge goes, a catalog would make no SENSE in that context, see? We wouldn't have done this for that challenge. The concept "catalog" was actually embedded in the description of the other challenge, and that was our starting point.

R.


Thanks for the very linear lesson on "art-product-selling-shows-catalog". I actually caught that right away as I was voting. The capacity for abstract thought does escape me sometimes, but this wasn't such an occasion.

I commented on several of the images that I could not accept "the image itself as the product". That's too much of a leap for me... and I've got major hops. The description was "Take a photograph of a product that might appear in a catalog." Product being the operative word for me. What you did was "take a photograph something that you could imagine being in a catalog of abstract art and shoehorned a title to fit. I just couldn't accept that as a product shot.

I'll file this under semantic confusion as, in this case, your "out-of-the-box" was DNMC.

Additionally, I don't believe I am excoriating anyone, but merely voted as I saw fit, which, again, was DNMC.

03/29/2010 03:53:05 PM · #57
Originally posted by Kelli:
As for polluting... basically you're calling these photographers pictures trash. I think an apology might be in order.


I'm sorry that's how you comprehend my statement, but in no way was I referring to anyone's submission as trash. Pollute - in the sense that you collectively and knowingly submitted off-topic shots to a specific challenge, which I therefore had to throw out as DNMC. Most of the images are quite good.
03/29/2010 04:05:22 PM · #58
So the top three ribbon winners in this challenge averaged a 7.63. That's huge. It's almost one full point higher on average than the three ribbon winners in Product Shots I, which was just two years ago. I wonder if that's just a coincidence or maybe discussing entries in public threads while still in voting does affect things.

ETA: Or maybe voters just go crazy, like Beatles' crazy, whenever you construct something that looks like a bottle (also see Techo's Heinz shot for further proof). :P

Message edited by author 2010-03-29 16:09:05.
 03/29/2010 04:19:17 PM · #59
Originally posted by signal2noise:
I commented on several of the images that I could not accept "the image itself as the product". That's too much of a leap for me... and I've got major hops. The description was "Take a photograph of a product that might appear in a catalog." Product being the operative word for me. What you did was "take a photograph something that you could imagine being in a catalog of abstract art and shoehorned a title to fit. I just couldn't accept that as a product shot.

I'll file this under semantic confusion as, in this case, your "out-of-the-box" was DNMC.

Additionally, I don't believe I am excoriating anyone, but merely voted as I saw fit, which, again, was DNMC.


I couldn't accept most of the entries as a product in a catalog. So nitpicking over one possible DNMC in a challenge full of DNMCs is kind of ridiculous, IMO, but to each his own.

Message edited by author 2010-03-29 16:20:25.
 03/29/2010 04:39:13 PM · #60
My plan for the next products challenge: I'm arranging noodles, broccoli pieces, and jellybeans in a pretty, wavy pattern, but the kicker is that I'm going to write something in it, with grated coconut, but in Klingon. It will be a "Poster for Trekies" (yep, a real product for a real market, I think .... )
 03/29/2010 04:50:28 PM · #61
Yikes... I want to assure folks that I did NOT collaborate for the Orange II challenge, yet there are several entries (haven't counted yet, but more than just a few) with the same type of subject I used in my entry. This is purely coincidence! (Well, that and the subject is orange.)

Also want to add that collaborative isn't new. I was on a Leica versus Lumix thing - it was kind of exclusive in you had to have either a Leica or a Lumix to play and was limited to four a side. I liked the Wee Horse that appeared in one of the challenges. I don't believe it diluted or polluted the challenge though it may have had a few scratching thier heads as in "where did I see this before?" As someone else pointed out, we quite often see shots from get-togethers or just couples or friends out shooting together. More than once we've had two such shots take ribbons in the same challenge. At any rate, I can see where some would think it a movement ("you can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant") but really it wasn't meant to piss anyone off.

Message edited by author 2010-03-29 16:55:12.
 03/29/2010 04:53:01 PM · #62
Originally posted by ursula:
My plan for the next products challenge: I'm arranging noodles, broccoli pieces, and jellybeans in a pretty, wavy pattern, but the kicker is that I'm going to write something in it, with grated coconut, but in Klingon. It will be a "Poster for Trekies" (yep, a real product for a real market, I think .... )


LOL YOU GO GIRL!!

*good to see ya back :) *
 03/29/2010 04:54:17 PM · #63
Originally posted by Melethia:
Yikes... I want to assure folks that I did NOT collaborate for the Orange II challenge, yet there are several entries (haven't counted yet, but more than just a few) with the same type of subject I used in my entry. This is purely coincidence! (Well, that and the subject is orange.)


You're so right!! I smelled collusion on this challenge -- I was totally amazed at the number of pictures with the color orange!
 03/29/2010 04:56:56 PM · #64
I have to say that independent of where you stand on this subject...what is absolutely remarkable is that everyone really cared enough about DPC to post their thoughts so vehemently.

Everyone came to the table...and we even had a food fight!

Then we sat around a played Star Trek trivia.

Long Live the DPC Family!

Message edited by author 2010-03-29 16:57:18.
 03/29/2010 05:13:49 PM · #65
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Yikes... I want to assure folks that I did NOT collaborate for the Orange II challenge, yet there are several entries (haven't counted yet, but more than just a few) with the same type of subject I used in my entry. This is purely coincidence! (Well, that and the subject is orange.)


You're so right!! I smelled collusion on this challenge -- I was totally amazed at the number of pictures with the color orange!


LOL - thanks. I really did laugh out loud at this one. :D
 03/29/2010 06:47:23 PM · #66
well, it did serve to flush a lot of DNMC Police with Very Shiny Badges out into the open.

To quote the Joker: Why So Serious?
 03/29/2010 10:05:58 PM · #67
Interesting. No one from the Site Council has checked in on this Thread.
(Yes, I know Ursula was SC, but isn't now.)
This is not an editorial for or against the subject, just a notation.
 03/29/2010 10:27:58 PM · #68
Originally posted by hihosilver:
I have to say that independent of where you stand on this subject...what is absolutely remarkable is that everyone really cared enough about DPC to post their thoughts so vehemently.

Everyone came to the table...and we even had a food fight!

Then we sat around a played Star Trek trivia.

Long Live the DPC Family!


Is there a special hand gesture for this?
 03/29/2010 10:38:09 PM · #69
Originally posted by yanko:
Is there a special hand gesture for this?


That depends on which side of the fence you ask..;-P
 03/29/2010 10:43:00 PM · #70
Originally posted by hihosilver:
Originally posted by yanko:
Is there a special hand gesture for this?

That depends on which side of the fence you ask..;-P

I have to admit that was pretty darn funny! LOL!!!
 03/29/2010 11:03:49 PM · #71
Originally posted by hihosilver:
Originally posted by yanko:
Is there a special hand gesture for this?


That depends on which side of the fence you ask..;-P


Great stuff! Tugging on the Romulan Ale are you? ;)
 03/29/2010 11:55:37 PM · #72
I thought it was an obnoxious, disrespectful act that would upset people, and was definitely DNMC. So I went for it.
 03/30/2010 12:15:00 AM · #73
Originally posted by posthumous:
I thought it was an obnoxious, disrespectful act that would upset people, and was definitely DNMC. So I went for it.


:-)
 03/30/2010 05:00:33 AM · #74
Blimey looks like I missed something exciting by not logging on the last few days! Whats the US way to say it - panties in a bunch? :)
Im off to browse the abstract glory & I applaude anyone who thinks outside of the box
 03/30/2010 02:00:59 PM · #75
Originally posted by sfalice:
Interesting. No one from the Site Council has checked in on this Thread.

I'm just watching. I don't know what, if anything, we'd be expected to do about it though. We got a bunch of validation requests and tickets questioning the entries, but they were all totally different photos from different people with no voting between them (not unlike a group submitting similar entries from a DPC GTG). Looks like the participants got clobbered for entering product shots without a discernible product, and most of these people have been around long enough to know you can't rely on the title alone for meeting the challenge.

It's interesting that we've had two challenges this month where a pair of photographers working together each ribboned with the same subject, yet THIS is what generated collaboration objections? EVERY challenge starts with the participants targeting a particular subject, so I just don't see the big deal if some of them choose to further narrow the focus. These members put themselves at an automatic disadvantage with a subject that arguably didn't meet the challenge and also gave up control of the title to try something different and see what happens— maybe generate some interesting discussion. Mixed results, I guess.

Message edited by author 2010-03-30 14:02:42.
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