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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Strobist lighting thread 2010
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06/22/2010 09:11:48 PM · #226
Originally posted by jminso:

Originally posted by kgeary:

Originally posted by jminso:

So I can go with a single Ab with what all I need for around $950

I can go with an additional 430ex(but I may do the 580 any just for the stroboscopic mode add $150 more) plus the pocket wizzard triggers for $900-$1050

Or with (the likely smarter initial move) a 430ex and radiopoppers for $600

I think with starting out the 430ex and radiopoppers are going to be the way to go.


You don't NEED a 430ex. You can do everything with non-ETTL flashes (that's the traditional strobist method). For $650 you could get a transmitter, two receivers, and two Lumopro160 strobes. Then you'd have two off-camera lights. Then each next strobe you want to add to your setup is $160 + $79 (flash + receiver).


I can't seem to find the Lumopro 160 strobes online but I want to go with ettl flashes since the triggers I want with them can do ettl and it would be nice to have that option as well as manual.


Gotcha.

Here's a link to the Lumopro

If you have to go ETTL then I think the Nikon strobes are cheaper than the Canon ones. Just don't put the Nikon strobe in your hot shoe.

Message edited by author 2010-06-22 21:12:12.
06/23/2010 10:49:26 AM · #227
So I ordered the radiopoppers jrx studio set and an additional receiver and got another 430ex II speedlite. The AB800 would be sweet but I think portability for how I work is more important. I will likely get a 580ex II at some point in the near future but from looking and reading I think the 430ex II is sufficient. Can't wait to get it all in and start playing around.

For you strobist using a similar setup, do you mainly fire the flashes bare or do you try and diffuse? I think in most conditions I will be bare firing but on darker or shadier locations I may get a bracket for my lightstand and umbrella to fire both 430's into the one umbrella(or through depending on which one I use)
06/23/2010 11:33:28 AM · #228
Originally posted by jminso:

For you strobist using a similar setup, do you mainly fire the flashes bare or do you try and diffuse?


diffusion always turns out nicer, but the power of a 430ex, even a 580exii won't be enough to supply enough light when you're using diffusion in anything but full shade.

I guess a bit of that depends on how thick the diffusion is & how close you're willing to get to your subjects with it.

I'm usually firing two 580exii's through 1-stop diffusion fabric, and at iso200, 1/200, my upper limit is f.13. That's with the diffusion 6 feet from the subjects. So, reduce that to just under 4 feet, & you can get to f.18 in a bind (full sun @iso200), but it's pretty hard to get the stands out of the way then.

Hopefully that's somewhat helpful.

Other problem when you're firing @ 1/1 though is the flashes can overheat fairly rapidly...
06/23/2010 11:43:22 AM · #229
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by jminso:

For you strobist using a similar setup, do you mainly fire the flashes bare or do you try and diffuse?


diffusion always turns out nicer, but the power of a 430ex, even a 580exii won't be enough to supply enough light when you're using diffusion in anything but full shade.

I guess a bit of that depends on how thick the diffusion is & how close you're willing to get to your subjects with it.

I'm usually firing two 580exii's through 1-stop diffusion fabric, and at iso200, 1/200, my upper limit is f.13. That's with the diffusion 6 feet from the subjects. So, reduce that to just under 4 feet, & you can get to f.18 in a bind (full sun @iso200), but it's pretty hard to get the stands out of the way then.

Hopefully that's somewhat helpful.

Other problem when you're firing @ 1/1 though is the flashes can overheat fairly rapidly...


I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter and it's possible to work mid-afternoon with one flash.

And back to the question about diffusion, I almost always use a shoot through umbrella unless I want a specific look that requires hard light. I keep the umbrella's tight in, just barely outside the frame, because the shorter the distance the bigger the light source and the softer the shadows.

Message edited by author 2010-06-23 11:45:54.
06/23/2010 12:21:05 PM · #230
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by jminso:

For you strobist using a similar setup, do you mainly fire the flashes bare or do you try and diffuse?


diffusion always turns out nicer, but the power of a 430ex, even a 580exii won't be enough to supply enough light when you're using diffusion in anything but full shade.

I guess a bit of that depends on how thick the diffusion is & how close you're willing to get to your subjects with it.

I'm usually firing two 580exii's through 1-stop diffusion fabric, and at iso200, 1/200, my upper limit is f.13. That's with the diffusion 6 feet from the subjects. So, reduce that to just under 4 feet, & you can get to f.18 in a bind (full sun @iso200), but it's pretty hard to get the stands out of the way then.

Hopefully that's somewhat helpful.

D

Other problem when you're firing @ 1/1 though is the flashes can overheat fairly rapidly...


I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter and it's possible to work mid-afternoon with one flash.

And back to the question about diffusion, I almost always use a shoot through umbrella unless I want a specific look that requires hard light. I keep the umbrella's tight in, just barely outside the frame, because the shorter the distance the bigger the light source and the softer the shadows.


David-- how quickly do your batteries go when shooting hypersync? I have yet to try HS...
06/23/2010 12:24:16 PM · #231
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter...


Hypersync/HSS sacrifices two full stops of light in comparison to using higher f-stops, lower ISO, or ND filters...

I could go lower on the f-stops (e.g. iso50, or ND filters), but I need highlight recovery (iso200)--I'm usually working fast & on the fly, so... if the f-stop is going to be over about f9.0, it doesn't seem to matter too much, so long as the sensor is clean :-)

You have me curious though that you're actually getting it to work. My settings for HSS through a diffusion layer @ 6 feet from the subject are these:
f4.5,iso200,1/500, 2 flashes, both@1/1
What gets me though, is f4.5,iso200,1/500 is nowhere near full sun, even mid-day shade will push the ambient close to over-exposing...

Do you have any shots of your setup... I'd love to work more with HSS, but I'm still experimenting (it's hard to keep soft-boxes out of the way when they're that close to a subject)

Message edited by author 2010-06-23 12:27:05.
06/23/2010 12:46:22 PM · #232
Originally posted by mpeters:



David-- how quickly do your batteries go when shooting hypersync? I have yet to try HS...

I have never had my batteries run out during a portrait session or when working with a model, but usually go through 2 sets during a wedding. I just buy the highest capacity NMIH batteries I can find and charge them over night before shooting. I'll have to experiment with hypersync because I don't know that I've ever used that for a full session.
06/23/2010 01:13:39 PM · #233
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter...


Hypersync/HSS sacrifices two full stops of light in comparison to using higher f-stops, lower ISO, or ND filters...

I could go lower on the f-stops (e.g. iso50, or ND filters), but I need highlight recovery (iso200)--I'm usually working fast & on the fly, so... if the f-stop is going to be over about f9.0, it doesn't seem to matter too much, so long as the sensor is clean :-)

You have me curious though that you're actually getting it to work. My settings for HSS through a diffusion layer @ 6 feet from the subject are these:
f4.5,iso200,1/500, 2 flashes, both@1/1
What gets me though, is f4.5,iso200,1/500 is nowhere near full sun, even mid-day shade will push the ambient close to over-exposing...

Do you have any shots of your setup... I'd love to work more with HSS, but I'm still experimenting (it's hard to keep soft-boxes out of the way when they're that close to a subject)

I'm hoping this overcast sky clears up so I can grab a daughter and do a test shot or two. I don't keep the best notes but I remember going through this process last night I had the sun blowing out edges on my subject.
- got to keep the aperture open a wide as possible for my flash, the shutter speed doesn't matter as long as I can sync
- push the shutter until I cannot sync because that will bring down the ambient light without affecting the flash.
I cannot remember exactly where I ended up, but I'll duplicate as soon as I have some sun to fight. I should also point out that I'm usually using a lastolite shoot through umbrella which I think loses about 1/2 stop of light.
06/23/2010 01:15:21 PM · #234
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by jminso:

For you strobist using a similar setup, do you mainly fire the flashes bare or do you try and diffuse?


diffusion always turns out nicer, but the power of a 430ex, even a 580exii won't be enough to supply enough light when you're using diffusion in anything but full shade.

I guess a bit of that depends on how thick the diffusion is & how close you're willing to get to your subjects with it.

I'm usually firing two 580exii's through 1-stop diffusion fabric, and at iso200, 1/200, my upper limit is f.13. That's with the diffusion 6 feet from the subjects. So, reduce that to just under 4 feet, & you can get to f.18 in a bind (full sun @iso200), but it's pretty hard to get the stands out of the way then.

Hopefully that's somewhat helpful.

Other problem when you're firing @ 1/1 though is the flashes can overheat fairly rapidly...


I haven't found this to be the case. Even my cheap sunpak flashes put out plenty of light for shooting through diffusion.
06/23/2010 02:42:28 PM · #235
Oh ... you meant YOUR baby is due soon!

Congrats Mark, on your new baby girl :)

Originally posted by hopper:

thanksgiving-ish .... and we're havin' a boy this time

Originally posted by mpeters:

Kris... A baby is due soon!
06/23/2010 04:51:49 PM · #236
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter...


Hypersync/HSS sacrifices two full stops of light in comparison to using higher f-stops, lower ISO, or ND filters...

I could go lower on the f-stops (e.g. iso50, or ND filters), but I need highlight recovery (iso200)--I'm usually working fast & on the fly, so... if the f-stop is going to be over about f9.0, it doesn't seem to matter too much, so long as the sensor is clean :-)

You have me curious though that you're actually getting it to work. My settings for HSS through a diffusion layer @ 6 feet from the subject are these:
f4.5,iso200,1/500, 2 flashes, both@1/1
What gets me though, is f4.5,iso200,1/500 is nowhere near full sun, even mid-day shade will push the ambient close to over-exposing...

Do you have any shots of your setup... I'd love to work more with HSS, but I'm still experimenting (it's hard to keep soft-boxes out of the way when they're that close to a subject)


I just wanted to see if we are on the same page here. I ran home at 1:30 in the afternoon and waited for a cloud to pass so I had full sun. Then I took a couple of very quick shots as follows.:
1. Metered off grass at ISO 100, f/4, 1/500 sec in full sun.
2. Put daughters back to sun for hair/rim light.
3. Pointed off camera 430EX II on PocketWizard FlexTT5 through umbrella at daughter.
4. Pushed the button (and she blinked).
5. Bumped shutter to 1/750.
6. Pushed the button again.
7. Dropped shutter back to 1/500.
8. Pushed the button again.
I don't know what power the flash used because I just left it in ETTL mode. The shot at 1/750 isn't lit quit as bright, so maybe I was pushing the flash or the ETTL just metered slightly different. Here are the results (ignore composition PLEASE)..
06/23/2010 11:02:12 PM · #237
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I'm curious why you are shooting so tight on the aperture? I do a lot of portrait work at f/4.0 and even a 430EX II has worked in anything but the hottest direct sun. Add some hypersync so you can knock down the sun with a fast shutter...


Hypersync/HSS sacrifices two full stops of light in comparison to using higher f-stops, lower ISO, or ND filters...

I could go lower on the f-stops (e.g. iso50, or ND filters), but I need highlight recovery (iso200)--I'm usually working fast & on the fly, so... if the f-stop is going to be over about f9.0, it doesn't seem to matter too much, so long as the sensor is clean :-)

You have me curious though that you're actually getting it to work. My settings for HSS through a diffusion layer @ 6 feet from the subject are these:
f4.5,iso200,1/500, 2 flashes, both@1/1
What gets me though, is f4.5,iso200,1/500 is nowhere near full sun, even mid-day shade will push the ambient close to over-exposing...

Do you have any shots of your setup... I'd love to work more with HSS, but I'm still experimenting (it's hard to keep soft-boxes out of the way when they're that close to a subject)


I just wanted to see if we are on the same page here. I ran home at 1:30 in the afternoon and waited for a cloud to pass so I had full sun. Then I took a couple of very quick shots as follows.:
1. Metered off grass at ISO 100, f/4, 1/500 sec in full sun.
2. Put daughters back to sun for hair/rim light.
3. Pointed off camera 430EX II on PocketWizard FlexTT5 through umbrella at daughter.
4. Pushed the button (and she blinked).
5. Bumped shutter to 1/750.
6. Pushed the button again.
7. Dropped shutter back to 1/500.
8. Pushed the button again.
I don't know what power the flash used because I just left it in ETTL mode. The shot at 1/750 isn't lit quit as bright, so maybe I was pushing the flash or the ETTL just metered slightly different. Here are the results (ignore composition PLEASE)..


What were you verifying? That strobes have enough output to battle with the sun; or something else?
06/24/2010 01:11:02 AM · #238
Originally posted by kgeary:


What were you verifying? That strobes have enough output to battle with the sun; or something else?

Medoomi had asked about my setup and if I was able to shot in full sun, through diffusion, with only one flash. I had suggested it would be possible with hypersync and wanted to verify rather than simply offering an opinion based on what I had heard someplace else. I posted the photos to make sure the option I offered addressed the same situation that was being described. Thought I was helping, but probably not. I'll let you guys continue without further interruption.
06/24/2010 01:56:36 AM · #239
Originally posted by hopper:

Oh ... you meant YOUR baby is due soon!

Congrats Mark, on your new baby girl :)

Originally posted by hopper:

thanksgiving-ish .... and we're havin' a boy this time

Originally posted by mpeters:

Kris... A baby is due soon!


haha-- i figured it didn't come across the right way! But trying to clarify while sitting in the hospital didn't seem fun... Thanks!
06/24/2010 01:57:07 AM · #240
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by kgeary:


What were you verifying? That strobes have enough output to battle with the sun; or something else?

Medoomi had asked about my setup and if I was able to shot in full sun, through diffusion, with only one flash. I had suggested it would be possible with hypersync and wanted to verify rather than simply offering an opinion based on what I had heard someplace else. I posted the photos to make sure the option I offered addressed the same situation that was being described. Thought I was helping, but probably not. I'll let you guys continue without further interruption.


thanks for the info David--I'm going to give the HS a run soon.
06/24/2010 08:32:47 AM · #241
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I just wanted to see if we are on the same page here. I ran home at 1:30 in the afternoon and waited for a cloud to pass so I had full sun. Then I took a couple of very quick shots as follows.:
1. Metered off grass at ISO 100, f/4, 1/500 sec in full sun.
2. Put daughters back to sun for hair/rim light.
3. Pointed off camera 430EX II on PocketWizard FlexTT5 through umbrella at daughter.
4. Pushed the button (and she blinked).
5. Bumped shutter to 1/750.
6. Pushed the button again.
7. Dropped shutter back to 1/500.
8. Pushed the button again.
I don't know what power the flash used because I just left it in ETTL mode. The shot at 1/750 isn't lit quit as bright, so maybe I was pushing the flash or the ETTL just metered slightly different. Here are the results (ignore composition PLEASE)..


That's very cool :-). Thanks for the experiment. I'll definitely have to try things out more myself.
So, how close was the umbrella? (What makes me wonder is catchlights in her eyes are so small)
06/24/2010 09:03:39 AM · #242
Originally posted by Medoomi:


So, how close was the umbrella? (What makes me wonder is catchlights in her eyes are so small)

I forgot to mention that detail and it is important. I usually shoot with the umbrella as close as possible without being in the frame. Unfortunately, the wind picked up and blew the umbrella, flash, etc. into a bush. After bending the umbrella back into shape I placed in next to me, with my foot holding the stand down, so I think it was about 8' from my subject. I should have grabbed a sandbag and moved the flash closer to my subject, but I was very limited on time. Another interesting note for those that shoot on location with an umbrella, I continue to be amazed at how the Lastolite umbrellas can be bent back into shape after a crash. Most other brands seem to break.
06/24/2010 09:57:30 AM · #243
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I think it was about 8' from my subject.


wow--so now I'm officially impressed & a little baffled.

With my 580exii, at 6 feet from the subject, shot through 1 stop diffusion, on iso 100, f4.0, 1/500 (HSS), a correct exposure would require 1 +2/3 of a stop over a full discharge if I am only using one flash.

I'm wondering if I'm alone on this... (would love to have some of the extra power that you seem to be getting)
06/24/2010 10:32:35 AM · #244
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I think it was about 8' from my subject.


wow--so now I'm officially impressed & a little baffled.

With my 580exii, at 6 feet from the subject, shot through 1 stop diffusion, on iso 100, f4.0, 1/500 (HSS), a correct exposure would require 1 +2/3 of a stop over a full discharge if I am only using one flash.

I'm wondering if I'm alone on this... (would love to have some of the extra power that you seem to be getting)

A couple of possibilities...
- I looked up the lastolite umbrella online and I'm only losing .7 stops of light vs 1, so there is 1/3 of a stop.
- I was in ETTL mode and maybe canon allows a bit more output here than when set manually at 1/1. I know that a full discharge (misfire) is brighter than manual at 1/1.
- Maybe the timing changes introduced by the pocketwizard help a little. (that link a little old, but it provides a good explanation of hypersync. With firmware updates I'm having no problems with the 5D2)

If it's useful, I can duplicate the experiment with the flash in manual mode.

Message edited by author 2010-06-24 10:39:51.
06/24/2010 10:49:59 AM · #245
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

If it's useful, I can duplicate the experiment with the flash in manual mode.


I'm going to be away the next few days & will try the same & post back on Monday--I'll stick with f4.0, ISO100, and simply find the max shutter speed in HSS using a single flash through diffusion @ 6 feet (I definitely want to maximise flash power... :-) ).
Thanks.
06/24/2010 01:26:47 PM · #246
Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I think it was about 8' from my subject.


wow--so now I'm officially impressed & a little baffled.

With my 580exii, at 6 feet from the subject, shot through 1 stop diffusion, on iso 100, f4.0, 1/500 (HSS), a correct exposure would require 1 +2/3 of a stop over a full discharge if I am only using one flash.

I'm wondering if I'm alone on this... (would love to have some of the extra power that you seem to be getting)


this doesn't make sense to me. Using cheap sunpak flashes I've shot at ISO 100, 1/250th at F8 to 16 through diffusion outside in the sun.
06/24/2010 03:19:14 PM · #247
Originally posted by kgeary:

Originally posted by Medoomi:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I think it was about 8' from my subject.


wow--so now I'm officially impressed & a little baffled.

With my 580exii, at 6 feet from the subject, shot through 1 stop diffusion, on iso 100, f4.0, 1/500 (HSS), a correct exposure would require 1 +2/3 of a stop over a full discharge if I am only using one flash.

I'm wondering if I'm alone on this... (would love to have some of the extra power that you seem to be getting)


this doesn't make sense to me. Using cheap sunpak flashes I've shot at ISO 100, 1/250th at F8 to 16 through diffusion outside in the sun.

I don't think the price of the flash has anything to do with the performance. It's entirely possible that your sunpak flashes have a higher output than a 580EXII or a 430EXII and therefore you can shoot ISO 100 with flash at a smaller aperture.
06/24/2010 03:57:26 PM · #248
using flash outside and over powering the sun are two different things. You can use any flash outside in the sunlight .... but now try to use a speedlight in a softbox with the sun just over your subjects shoulder (in the frame of the shot), under expose ambient by 1.5 stops and properly light the subject ... you won't be able to do it.
06/24/2010 04:12:57 PM · #249
Originally posted by hopper:

using flash outside and over powering the sun are two different things. You can use any flash outside in the sunlight .... but now try to use a speedlight in a softbox with the sun just over your subjects shoulder (in the frame of the shot), under expose ambient by 1.5 stops and properly light the subject ... you won't be able to do it.

I agree completely and that's why I tried to ask if I was talking about the same situation. There are times I have struggled to even shoot in full sun because by the time I knocked down the highlights the shadows were too dark and my flash wasn't strong enough to bring them up. I brought up hypersync because the couple of stops I gained helped the situation tremendously. But, if I wanted the sun in the frame and a deep blue sky, I would be thinking AB800 and a big battery pack. I hope I didn't confuse things.

Message edited by author 2010-06-24 16:14:14.
06/24/2010 04:16:47 PM · #250
Originally posted by hopper:

using flash outside and over powering the sun are two different things. You can use any flash outside in the sunlight .... but now try to use a speedlight in a softbox with the sun just over your subjects shoulder (in the frame of the shot), under expose ambient by 1.5 stops and properly light the subject ... you won't be able to do it.

Now I wondering, how close could I get... and do we quantify the output from an studio strobe (AB800) vs a little batter powered flash?
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