more color cast problems... printer this time...?

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/28/2009 02:58:25 PM · #1

OK, I'm trying to enter my first physical print contest and I'm going there tomorrow.

I just worked for several hours to make this thing spotless at full A4 size, but when I printed it out, there's a very strong green cast.

I'm using Epson's best photo paper and ran a sheet of Ilford through to check if it was the paper.

Now I am trying to figure out if it's my comp or the printer. And if it's the printer, what the heck can I do about it?

I have to get up in 5 hours for class. I will submit after class.

any ideas?

Does this thing have a color cast? Please note the street light, which should be a good white point as is the paper she's holding (ironically, she forgot the book and I had my grey cards stand in). In PS, both of these are VERY close to straight white. Also, the light was a bit 'golden' as we were running out of time. However, nowhere NEAR the amount of yellow cast.

It's a bit like turning the saturation up to about 80.

PS. this is not related to my previous color cast problem. That was a comp at the office. This is my home comp that I have been using for some time. I've found the screen to be very decent in general for calibration.

I just wasted 40 bucks worth of ink and 20 bucks worth of paper trying to calibrate this stinking printer.

I get close, but the hair starts printing purple.

It's just ******WAAAYYYYY****** oversaturated by default and playing with the manual print settings just is not cutting it.

Sorry for rambling, it's 3:00am.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

10/28/2009 07:18:24 PM · #2

I don't see a green cast. There's obviously a lot of green in the image from the subject, but I don't see an overall green cast in the colors. On the other hand, I think there's too magenta. There's definitely too much magenta in the sky, and the girl's skin tones are also a bit too red. The 'white' in the book is actually pink.

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

10/28/2009 07:33:15 PM · #3

thank you. just wanted to make sure that I wasn't totally out to lunch.

Now I have to figure out how to calibrate the printer.

Since it seems very, very off, just using the mainual setting isn't going to be enough.

in the manual setting, I can correct channels, but the problem isn't too little magenta, the problem is that there is too much green. Correcting the green channel leads to purpes in her hair.

Now I get to pick which one of the crappy purple hair prints I use. I sure hope they use digital.

THanks!

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

10/29/2009 12:02:53 AM · #4

Color casts on a print are usually caused by incorrect profile settings in the printer driver and/or photoshop.

No profiling - color management turned off in both printer driver and PS - usually causes a green cast.

Double profiling - color management turned on in both places - usually causes a red cast.

What is the suggested setup is to turn on color management in PS and turn it off in the printer driver (uncheck the ICM /color management box).

What settings are you using in PS and the printer driver? showing screenshots would help so we can see if there's anything wrong in your setup.

10/30/2009 12:13:45 AM · #5

WOw. I really appreciate the help Colette. I think you have come up with useful information on every single one of my last 10 questions. Thank you.

I will look closer at this, but I have some other things I have to take care of for a few days. I'll run some more tests in a couple of days. Please keep an eye here. I am not ignoring your response.

I have been feeling pretty disappointed with my printer's color handling, so it is very exciting to think that I can finally wrangle some control back.

Talk to you again in a couple of days.

11/01/2009 04:37:18 AM · #6

OK. Thanks for waiting. FWIW, I have a friend who owns a Spyder II that is sending it to me next week to borrow.

I am using my iP4300. My computer is running Win7 RC.

I am using PS CS4.

The image is printing from 16 bit TIFF. I am working in Adobe RGB (although perhaps not the best choice, there's no real reason that this should affect the print output right?).

I followed your advice and set the print settings to Photoshop manages colors.

I went to the printer settings and set the color to manual from auto, with all settings at 0.

Printer profile is iP4300 PR1 (which is Pro Paper 1)

Paper is top quality Epson Premium glossy (expensive little bit of testing this has been...) I did switch to 4x6, but the reduction in size is not having any effect on the color representation. The same settings show the same results in either 4x6 or A4.

I am printing with Relative Colormetric selected, although I have tried all of them.

I also tried disabling the black point compensation. That yielded a pic with higher contrast, but also significantly stronger saturation.

From the Canon Printer Print preview box, here it is without black point compensation and fully neutral:

Here it is with black point compensation:

However, these are not representations of the final print. The final print is strongly greened up.

They merely show what the computer thinks is happening.

The final print with the black point compensation removed is darker in the skin tones and has a stronger green/orange cast on the sidewalk.

?

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

11/01/2009 05:18:15 AM · #7

This is an approximation of what I am seeing in print, with the print matched to my screen.

It's subtly different in each variant that I print off, but this is the basic result.

The one major difference is that for some odd reason, the sky seems a bit more magenta in my prints.

However, I made the sky that color and I did NOT use magenta. I used straight blue gradients by number. There should be no reason that there is magenta in the sky.

The green cast doesn't seem to affect the sky. This is why I suspect it is more likely to be an 'intensity' or 'saturation' setting of some sort. However, I cannot find anything like that to turn off. There are some settings like that, but they are all already off.

In the prints, the green/yellow is more pronounced on her face and in the vegetation.

I'm going to load this up on a card and take it to a print shop in the next few days and see what they can make for me.

Message edited by author 2009-11-01 05:21:23.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

11/01/2009 09:40:53 AM · #8

Originally posted by eschelar:

I went to the printer settings and set the color to manual from auto, with all settings at 0.

Keiran,

Turning the printer driver colour management off is done by disabling ICM.

On my ip6700D printer it's done by selecting the page setup tab then clicking the Print Options button at the bottom.
In there check the box to disable ICM. The printer will now relinquish control to PS.

11/01/2009 10:03:48 AM · #9

oh... I did not notice that.

I have printed a test and the result is identical to the previous test which did not select that box, but had Color rendering set to none.

next up, I am going to follow another suggestion to print out of another program. Not sure which program I will use though.

I wonder if I feel like installing DPP...

idp

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

11/01/2009 11:21:55 AM · #10

Hi - my suggestion is the same as someone else's - use a different program - I get the best results through the windows print manager - just open the folder and right click.

11/01/2009 09:45:44 PM · #11

Hey, that seems to have done the trick! Well kinda.

There is now a slight shift towards magenta, but otherwise, the colors match fairly well. The sky is a bit too light, but the yellows and greens seem fairly well managed. In actual fact, I feel that the result from Photoshop (with Colette's recommended settings) is more visually pleasing to the eye, but it's not all that faithful.

I can't wait to get my hands on that Spyder next week.

I'm probably going to get a new monitor then too.

Samsung 2493HS I believe.

Thanks for all your help folks!

I guess it's 'Photoshop for pleasing results' and 'windows for faithful results'.

I might update this thread after I get the spyder.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/07/2009 11:33:10 AM · #12

experimenting with the spyder...

one thing that is raising a major eyebrow is the fact that the image in photoshop keeps getting more and more yellow as I get better results for calibration.

YET, the one on here just looks better and better.

So I'm starting to wonder why... And what I'm guessing is that because Chrome is not color profile aware like photoshop is, it's showing straight results, but photoshop is giving me a flawed result because it is showing me a different color profile.

with adobe RGB selected, the color is ridiculous - however, I'm not sure if this is because of the information in the file (ie, the way I processed it) or because of a misinterpretation by PS.

With my custom profile selected, the color returns to normal.

I need to explore it better to understand it better and figure out what's going on. But I may have found the culprit.

It's almost like Photoshop is *too* color profile aware... When the pic has been sent to the printer with the Adobe RGB profile selected, it has been a mess...

Learned something VERY VERY USEFUL!!!

You can get approximations of how the pic will look in printout by assigning a profile and choosing your printer profile.

My printer profiles are very odd in the color representation and I suspect that this is where PS is getting screwed up.

I just wish there was somewhere that had more info on this.

I suppose the only way to figure it out is to test with new pics. I'm running very low on paper (still all Epson ultra glossy... sonofa!), so I think I'm going to print 2 per page - one of simple information generated in photoshop by the numbers, and later perhaps adding a shot of a grey card, processed from RAW. I guess that ultimately, it all boils down to whether a piece of information 127 127 127 prints out as 127 127 127.

If not, it's got to be a misinterpretation of data, no?

Message edited by author 2009-11-07 11:51:43.

soup

Canon EOS-30D

11/07/2009 12:59:48 PM · #13

one thing you want to avoid is 'assigning' anything a profile.

the soft proof option lets you preview different profile settings w/o photoshop actually doing a conversion of color space. if you assign a profile to an image, and assign another profile you're having photoshop convert the numbers again and again.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

11/07/2009 02:13:14 PM · #14

A couple of key things to remember:

Your monitor profile is not your colour space

Print processing:

file in PS has a certain embedded profile
--> PS color management converts numbers to the printer profile selected, color management in printer is turned off
--> file is printed

or

file in PS has a certain embedded profile
--> PS color management is turned off
--> printer deriver converts numbers to printer profile selected
--> file is printed

Color management has to be turned off in either PS or in the printer driver, not both and should not be turned on in both.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

11/07/2009 08:20:05 PM · #15

Originally posted by soup:

I can see what you mean. I agree.

After much experimentation, I discovered the same thing. The monitor profile isn't have any actual impact on the accuracy of the information.

That was an illusion because the results were very yellow.

I checked out a tutorial by Lynda.com and that guy recommends synchronizing and working adobe RGB.

So I'm set here with Adobe RGB and everything looks insanely yellow.

But perhaps that means that if I tweak it so it doesn't look yellow, it will be OK.

Colette:
more helpful stuff, I had actually printed 3 tests without having checked that the color management was off. oops. However, as before, the difference between prints with no color profile in the print settings and prints with driver matching is almost imperceptible. The difference between printing in Adobe RGB vs sRGB vs what it actually looks like on my screen is HUGE.

Still working on this..... $40 dollars of ink and 20 dollars of paper later and I'm still no further ahead. This is getting ridiculous.

WHy is photoshop completely bonkers over colors? What photoshop THINKS it is going to look like is not even close to what it actually looks like. However, Windows print can get it right?

Adobe RGB has this ridiculous yellow hue over the pic. When it gets sent to the printer, the hue disappears. This is good, but means that my editing is always going to have to guess.

I rendered a file in Adobe RGB from bridge through to PS, then printed it, all in Adobe RGB. The printed results DO NOT MATCH.

I did a save for web and naturally, the pic was convered to sRGB and the pic is showing up even more yellow.

Again, I don't believe that this is a monitor thing, since other programs handle the information fine.

What am I doing wrong? At this point, I cannot use photoshop to edit anything at all. The picture is so ridiculously hued when viewing in PS.

Message edited by author 2009-11-07 20:52:32.

MattO

Nikon D4

11/07/2009 09:22:38 PM · #16

FWIW I can't ever get photoshop to print anything like what the photos look like in the program with my iP4300 or Pro9000 canon printers. However the program that came with it does a superb job. Perhaps run a print through there.

Matt