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10/17/2009 01:11:15 AM · #51 |
I'd say just let her see the other shots that don't make you cringe. Sure take out the OOF ones and poor exposures and give her the extra shots if you have them.
I just had a similar situation and because I went above and beyond she told her three friends to use me to shoot their wedding. An extra hour of my time made me way more than money than blowing off unhappy yet pleasable customer.
You never know!
Just give her something she doesn't have already and tell her that's all you have left to give. Show her that price per photo ratio compared to the photobooth. Whoever said that was genius! |
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10/17/2009 04:51:21 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by Simms:
There is one thing in the original post that puts me on the photographers side, you said you shot the wedding months ago - exactly how long was there between the bride receiving the photos and her complaining - if it was like 5 months then I would say that was unacceptable - surely she would know from the first few weeks that photos were missing, were not upto scratch etc.. But if she let you know in under 12 weeks then I would say that was in a timely manner..
Give us some more facts, lets see some shots and we could go from there.. |
Simms and a few others nailed it here but this thread really does need images posted, if you're interested in good feedback.
As for the bride complaining, well after the fact...that's a drag but sometimes people (at the event) don't see the images until few months after, as I've experienced. Perhaps as more and more people saw the shots, a wave of negative feedback grew. If she was unhappy at the start this may have forced the issue. Who knows, but that's a good possibility.
The customers certainly not always right but it's good business to approach things from that angle. It's just a rule of thumb but the most successful businesses start with that approach.
Jeb-I agree a lot of Pro-hacks are being unearthed but thousands of hacks are also getting into the game on the flip side and the internet is flooding with those horror stories, as we speak. As for the bride hoping the parents being put together is a stretch. Perhaps she simply wanted a few pictures of them together as a unit...happy, for a moment or two, an image that might not exist anywhere else in her memory. More important, it's a good lesson in wedding photography to develop an innate sense to take those images, even if you don't know the players at the occasion OR to ask the couple if there are certain shots they really would like you to capture.
I'm sure anyone who's done this a few times has heard the bride or someone you've shot for, at any event say "darn, I wish you'd gotten a few of my mother and brother together" or "there are no good pictures of all three sisters ...they haven't been in one place together, in years"
Post some images.
Message edited by author 2009-10-17 11:54:16. |
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10/17/2009 06:42:17 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Originally posted by Simms:
Answers didn't go your way eh?
Never mind, next time we'll sugar coat them for you so they go down a bit easier. |
Nope, I am just strongly against that saying.
I have given them some more photos, as my attempt to satisfy the bride. Yet, without releasing what I feel is not up to standards.
As some one said, if she's a complainer, she's also a talker. She at least cannot complain about my effort on my part, the price, and most importantly quality |
I may of sounded rather harsh earlier - listen if you really think you have gone above and beyond what she expects then she IS probably being unreasonable - however I am dead against NikonJebs arguments and still think you should adopt a `customer always right (to start with )` policy.. Shooting weddings are hard work and a lot of responsibility and not for everyone. I am sure your work is of a high enough standard - its just a shame this happened so early on in your wedding career - but its certainly character building and you will learn heaps from this experience.. |
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10/17/2009 08:23:53 AM · #54 |
To me what the bride is actually complaining about is the fact that her parents are separated - parents together in pictures = parents back together.
I think that Simms speaks sense here - once you've been paid you need to see the customer service through to the end. It doesn't matter whether or not you consider yourself a business man, if there's money involved there's a business. |
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10/17/2009 09:24:12 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by Simms:
I may of sounded rather harsh earlier - listen if you really think you have gone above and beyond what she expects then she IS probably being unreasonable - however I am dead against NikonJebs arguments and still think you should adopt a `customer always right (to start with )` policy.. |
And as entitled to your view as you are, you still must be aware that trying to please someone who is completely unreasonable will just make you nuts and the customer still not pleased.
That's my point, and I only offer that as a perspective from someone who had his as business for 20 years in a niche market where I had to deal with emotional reactions and responses from customers as a rule rather than realistic and pragmatic views as the norm.
The rewards are higher when you meet their expectations, but when the dreams and realities don't jibe, you're going to be the bad guy, no matter what.
All you can do in that case is to do your level best to hold up your end and let the cards fall where they may......if you do your part to the best of your ability, and know that you've honestly tried to accomodate the customer's wishes, what more *can* you do?
You genuinely cannot win them all, especially when feelings and emotions come into play.
If this Mom and Dad thing is what the issue is all about, and you don't have these elusive, unrequested and unplanned pictures, you're pretty much out of luck.
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10/17/2009 09:26:52 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Simms:
I may of sounded rather harsh earlier - listen if you really think you have gone above and beyond what she expects then she IS probably being unreasonable - however I am dead against NikonJebs arguments and still think you should adopt a `customer always right (to start with )` policy.. |
And as entitled to your view as you are, you still must be aware that trying to please someone who is completely unreasonable will just make you nuts and the customer still not pleased.
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agreed 150%.
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10/17/2009 09:40:57 AM · #57 |
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images.
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10/17/2009 09:47:14 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Simms:
I may of sounded rather harsh earlier - listen if you really think you have gone above and beyond what she expects then she IS probably being unreasonable - however I am dead against NikonJebs arguments and still think you should adopt a `customer always right (to start with )` policy.. |
And as entitled to your view as you are, you still must be aware that trying to please someone who is completely unreasonable will just make you nuts and the customer still not pleased.
That's my point, and I only offer that as a perspective from someone who had his as business for 20 years in a niche market where I had to deal with emotional reactions and responses from customers as a rule rather than realistic and pragmatic views as the norm.
The rewards are higher when you meet their expectations, but when the dreams and realities don't jibe, you're going to be the bad guy, no matter what.
All you can do in that case is to do your level best to hold up your end and let the cards fall where they may......if you do your part to the best of your ability, and know that you've honestly tried to accomodate the customer's wishes, what more *can* you do?
You genuinely cannot win them all, especially when feelings and emotions come into play.
If this Mom and Dad thing is what the issue is all about, and you don't have these elusive, unrequested and unplanned pictures, you're pretty much out of luck. |
I fully understand where you are coming from, but the main issue here was everyone, without hearing the full story was just saying walk away. They even start casting aspersions on the fact the husband would be leaving her sooner rather than later, they gauged all this from a few words from "one of our own" who is obviously having problems with a troublesome client. I was trying to jump in as a voice of reason so he didn't do something he would later regret or even damage his business irrevocably.
And no matter what, I will always put the customer first and be as accommodating as humanly possible - but yes, when you really cannot produce what she is asking for, be upfront about it and say "sorry, no can do".. but see if you might appease them another way.. as far as my business is concerned, the customer IS always right - there may come a point where you have exhausted every possible avenue of trying to meet a middle ground or even give in a little bit but ultimately I will try to keep the cusomter satisfied and never immediately think they are in the wrong. |
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10/17/2009 09:51:03 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Jeb-I agree a lot of hacks are being unearthed but thousands of hacks are also getting into the game on the flip side and the internet is flooding with those horror stories, as we speak.
More important, it's a good lesson in wedding photography to develop an innate sense to take those images, even if you don't know the players at the occasion OR to ask the couple if there are certain shots they really would like you to capture. |
I have shot two weddings.....one I was second camera, and did a competent job of getting those delicious random candids that you cannot possibly know about beforehand.
The second wedding I shot, I was the sole shooter, it was an abysmally poor venue for shooting, and I performed way below reasonable expectations....at least by my standards.....I feel that it was a disaster......unfort6unately, it turns out that *I* am one of those hacks.
I learned a really hard lesson, I'm embarrassed, and I'll never again shoot a wedding as first camera.....I do *NOT* know what I'm doing and have *NO* business doing it.
It was for peanuts, the bride & groom couldn't be bothered to get with me to set up a game plan, and despite the fact that they're okay with the results, I'm mortified at how bad of a mistake I made even thinking that I was competent to shoot a wedding.
I don't have the experience and the take-charge kind of attitude I needed in order to separate the relevant parties to ensure that proper pics were shot, and I had a lousy time because I could tell from the moment I started into capturing the event that it was a bad thing.
I have managed to salvage some images from the day that are passable, but I know I wouldn't have been happy were the situation reversed.
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10/17/2009 09:55:46 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Simms:
I fully understand where you are coming from, but the main issue here was everyone, without hearing the full story was just saying walk away. They even start casting aspersions on the fact the husband would be leaving her sooner rather than later, they gauged all this from a few words from "one of our own" who is obviously having problems with a troublesome client. I was trying to jump in as a voice of reason so he didn't do something he would later regret or even damage his business irrevocably. |
Wait!
Are you saying that we'd just jump to a bunch of rude conclusions and trash an unknown person without all the facts?????
Shirley, you jest!.....8>)
I sincerely hope that the OP will absorb all the relevant info, kick to the curb what doesn't apply, and make every reasonable effort to be a stand-up and professional player in this scenario.
I'm assuming he came to us with the problem because he's genuinely looking for intelligent guidance rather to just gripe.
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10/17/2009 10:25:38 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
I am a photographer NOT A BUSINESSMAN, I do weddings only on the side. |
You can't charge money and then say you're not a businessman. You have to be. Most people, myself included, have no idea what a large percentage of being a paid photographer is actually about BUSINESS rather than PHOTOGRAPHY. If you don't want to deal with business, go on a Flickr walk and call it a day.
The number of people quick to claim that she's just never, ever be satisfied make it clear that most people don't spend much time reading photo business forums (DPC is a good photography forum, but very slim in the photo business area) or deal with many photo clients. Asking for more photos isn't an insane, over the top request. It happens all the time. And it's very possible that she can be satisfied. To her, a photo of her divorced parents together at all may be more important than a perfectly exposed, tack sharp image that you'd put on your wall. She may be satisfied just in hearing that the rest of the images really are poor quality or not up to your standards. Or there may be a way to work together to come to some sort of agreement. Sometimes they just ask to ask, sometimes they're satisfied just in knowing that you've heard them.
If you're ready to walk away the first time a client pushes back and simply claim you're not a businessperson, then walk away and stay out of the business. It's not going to get any easier.
(Someday maybe I'll share my story about my client who had to have her photos rush edited because she was going to die before they were done, who needed her husband's goatee photoshopped back in because some mysterious person had changed his razor settings and he'd shaved it off that morning, who complained because she thought the photos would look different than they did when she ordered them, who then spent weeks leaving me back-to-back messages because my machine cuts off at 4 minutes and who then tried to report everyone in my lawyer's office to everyone else because they stopped dealing with her when she called in under fake names. And that's just the start. ;) )
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10/17/2009 04:04:42 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by ben4345:
I am a photographer NOT A BUSINESSMAN, I do weddings only on the side. |
You can't charge money and then say you're not a businessman. You have to be. Most people, myself included, have no idea what a large percentage of being a paid photographer is actually about BUSINESS rather than PHOTOGRAPHY. If you don't want to deal with business, go on a Flickr walk and call it a day.
The number of people quick to claim that she's just never, ever be satisfied make it clear that most people don't spend much time reading photo business forums (DPC is a good photography forum, but very slim in the photo business area) or deal with many photo clients. Asking for more photos isn't an insane, over the top request. It happens all the time. And it's very possible that she can be satisfied. To her, a photo of her divorced parents together at all may be more important than a perfectly exposed, tack sharp image that you'd put on your wall. She may be satisfied just in hearing that the rest of the images really are poor quality or not up to your standards. Or there may be a way to work together to come to some sort of agreement. Sometimes they just ask to ask, sometimes they're satisfied just in knowing that you've heard them.
If you're ready to walk away the first time a client pushes back and simply claim you're not a businessperson, then walk away and stay out of the business. It's not going to get any easier.
(Someday maybe I'll share my story about my client who had to have her photos rush edited because she was going to die before they were done, who needed her husband's goatee photoshopped back in because some mysterious person had changed his razor settings and he'd shaved it off that morning, who complained because she thought the photos would look different than they did when she ordered them, who then spent weeks leaving me back-to-back messages because my machine cuts off at 4 minutes and who then tried to report everyone in my lawyer's office to everyone else because they stopped dealing with her when she called in under fake names. And that's just the start. ;) ) |
Where's the "Like" button...
Oh. |
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10/17/2009 06:38:22 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images. |
Of the rejects or what I have given them?
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10/17/2009 06:39:19 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images. |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Of the rejects or what I have given them? |
Some of the nice ones to wow us! |
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10/17/2009 07:38:28 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images. |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Of the rejects or what I have given them? |
Some of the nice ones to wow us! |
Not going to call this the best of the best but presentable. I'd rather give a better idea of the range of quality for weddings.
//evisionphotos.smugmug.com/gallery/9998001_bmSVL#683757181_hCxPG
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10/17/2009 07:55:57 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images. |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Of the rejects or what I have given them? |
Some of the nice ones to wow us! |
Not going to call this the best of the best but presentable. I'd rather give a better idea of the range of quality for weddings.
//evisionphotos.smugmug.com/gallery/9998001_bmSVL#683757181_hCxPG |
Beautiful photos, I think! Plus... I think I can run faster than her if I were to kick her in the sack and run.
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10/17/2009 08:24:07 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hey, just so we *DO* know where we stand on our opinions, post up some images. |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Of the rejects or what I have given them? |
Some of the nice ones to wow us! |
Not going to call this the best of the best but presentable. I'd rather give a better idea of the range of quality for weddings.
//evisionphotos.smugmug.com/gallery/9998001_bmSVL#683757181_hCxPG |
Are these the ones from that brides wedding??
Not many of her parents together are there?
I thought there were 270+? |
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10/17/2009 09:42:32 PM · #68 |
I found that an extremely hi percentage of people hate themselves in pics, and not the pics or the quality of pics. Is this the case here? Is she complaining because of her appearance? and taking it out on you?
This is the reason I have stopped doing weddings or scheduled portraits. People expect you to perform miracles when it comes to their appearance. I am trying to stay with models or people that are comfortable in front of the camera, therefore taking that out of the equation. It really takes the fun out of it for me when someone says "ooh I really don't like that" when they really mean " I look horrible in that pic". MAybe thats why I don't this for a living.. yet.
I would move on! Everyone in business encounters customers like this and there is no satisfying them. Be polite and dismiss yourself from the situation.
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10/17/2009 09:59:27 PM · #69 |
Never mind...
Message edited by author 2009-10-18 07:55:56. |
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10/18/2009 03:39:14 PM · #70 |
I know Haim and have spent some time with him studying his business. The model he has put together is spot-on and if we had found a way, I would invest in his business. It's truly a sight to see.
If he ends up franchisng, I would highly recommend that you sports photogs. look into it.
Sorry for the hijack. We now return you to your regular thread. |
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10/19/2009 09:33:59 AM · #71 |
I do kinda like this shot but otherwise...just my opinion, the set overall has some serious compositional issues. I know you didn't actually ask for advice but I'd say crop down considerably to the subjects heads. Get more body and less sky. Again...just my opinion but it sort of stands out, clear and perhaps that came blowing back to you, in a round about way. Just a guess?
Thanks for posting the link because now, we have a clearer idea what the exchange is about. Cheers!
eta: I still would like to have seen "the best of the best"...why not?
Message edited by author 2009-10-19 10:25:59. |
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10/19/2009 09:46:40 AM · #72 |
FYI -- you might want to cut off "sales" on that SM page. As it is, I could buy any of these at cost. :P Or she could come across it and get a really good deal on a some of them.
Message edited by author 2009-10-19 09:47:18. |
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10/19/2009 11:06:06 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
[quote=ben4345] Not going to call this the best of the best but presentable. I'd rather give a better idea of the range of quality for weddings.
I do kinda like this shot but otherwise...just my opinion, the set overall has some serious compositional issues. I know you didn't actually ask for advice but I'd say crop down considerably to the subjects heads. Get more body and less sky. Again...just my opinion but it sort of stands out, clear and perhaps that came blowing back to you, in a round about way. Just a guess?
Thanks for posting the link because now, we have a clearer idea what the exchange is about. Cheers!
eta: I still would like to have seen "the best of the best"...why not? |
Fully agree with Pawdrix here - some solid shots, but nothing too memorable. The shot Pawdrix linked to caught my eye as well - lots of personality there..
I wont ask you to show us the `best of the best` as you put it, as that isn't what this thread was about - but will agree there are a few compositional issues there, nothing a bit of cropping wouldn`t sort out - and it was one of your first weddings - I know my early stuff had loads of problems compositionally (and occasionally I still struggle in the heat of the moment).
Would of liked to see some of the bridal portraits though - more out of professional curiosity rather than the critique. |
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10/19/2009 11:25:56 AM · #74 |
I have 2 other similar photos of that . As for comp errors, I know the rules, I chose to break them.
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10/19/2009 11:32:12 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
I have 2 other similar photos of that . As for comp errors, I know the rules, I chose to break them. |
Maybe next time stick to `em eh? ;P |
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