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10/16/2009 10:59:34 AM · #26 |
Gonna chip in here..
You say you delivered over 270 photos.. is that over 270 but under 280? 270 seems a pretty weird number to pick out of the air.
Granted certain shots such as divorced mum and dad together cannot be guarenteed at all, however, how many shots did you take, how many did you reject and how many did you deliver.. what was agreed beforehand.. regardless of how much you got paid, they still paid you as a professional to deliver a product which they are not happy with - the whole `just forget it and move on` attitude is what pisses me off with the Weekend Warrior brigade out there - those who buy a camera and call themselves a `photographer` - that`s like me buying a piano and calling myself a `pianist`, yeah sure, maybe I could knock out a recital of chopsticks on it, but I wouldn't go punting myself around the winebars touting for work.
Also, can we see the work you actually delivered to her? is that possible?
I think we are only hearing one side of the story here.
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 11:03:08. |
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10/16/2009 11:28:53 AM · #27 |
I totally agree with Simms. You need to be far more respectful and professional than just saying "ah well... sorry" and 'moving on' to the next client.
Yes you were only paid $400 but that doesn't mean you can flake out now and supply a product she is simply not happy with. It doesn't matter what the groom says by the way. This is business.
Bust your ass to fix this. Salvage any shots you can of the parents and give them to her for free.
If you want to do this professionally then be professional. Don't just bail when the proverbial hits the fan or god forbid, somebody isn't 100% satisfied with what you have produced.
Having said that, if you have no decent pics left, then tell her that. Mention that you supplied the best pictures, apologize for them not being more of the parents but you weren't aware of their importance in the photographs (didn't you have a pre-wedding meeting?) and do what you can, suck it up, be a professional and use this as a learning experience.
The people here who are telling you to move on in spite of her are hammering nails in your coffin. It was your call to agree at $400 so you can't bitch now that because that's all you got paid you can afford to be lax and unprofessional about everything.
Think of the industry you represent and the guys busting their balls and the brush you've just tarred them all with. It's events like this that denigrate wedding photography as a legitimate business and make people think there's no point having a wedding photographer.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but the attitude here stinks. |
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10/16/2009 11:43:39 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Tez:
I totally agree with Simms.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but the attitude here stinks. |
Agree, just because one of my clients haggles a better deal out of me, say knocking a couple of hundred quid off a package, I wouldn't give them a quality of service £200 below my other customers who paid full price. Everyone should get the same service regardless of the amount they pay.
Now, if you had done the wedding for free then it is a different kettle of fish entirely, but the fact of the matter is you charged them, whether it be $400 or $4000 - once you have shaken on it and taken (and spent) their money you owe them the service you sold them.
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10/16/2009 11:44:41 AM · #29 |
| The last two posts are the best on this thread. "The customer is always right." is a credo that will build your business. |
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10/16/2009 11:51:05 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Tez:
I totally agree with Simms. You need to be far more respectful and professional than just saying "ah well... sorry" and 'moving on' to the next client.
Yes you were only paid $400 but that doesn't mean you can flake out now and supply a product she is simply not happy with. It doesn't matter what the groom says by the way. This is business.
Bust your ass to fix this. Salvage any shots you can of the parents and give them to her for free.
If you want to do this professionally then be professional. Don't just bail when the proverbial hits the fan or god forbid, somebody isn't 100% satisfied with what you have produced.
Having said that, if you have no decent pics left, then tell her that. Mention that you supplied the best pictures, apologize for them not being more of the parents but you weren't aware of their importance in the photographs (didn't you have a pre-wedding meeting?) and do what you can, suck it up, be a professional and use this as a learning experience.
The people here who are telling you to move on in spite of her are hammering nails in your coffin. It was your call to agree at $400 so you can't bitch now that because that's all you got paid you can afford to be lax and unprofessional about everything.
Think of the industry you represent and the guys busting their balls and the brush you've just tarred them all with. It's events like this that denigrate wedding photography as a legitimate business and make people think there's no point having a wedding photographer.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but the attitude here stinks. |
As one of the weekend warriors who suggested to "move on", professionalism at all times was implied. I also assumed that there was nothing left salvageable besides the 270 pics. And of course try to make things right with the bride, but again to me this is just part of professionalism.
But you certainly laid out a very good way to handle it, and if I'm ever in the same situation will follow your advice.
If you do try to make it right, are professional, then at what point do you move on?
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10/16/2009 11:54:06 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The last two posts are the best on this thread. "The customer is always right." is a credo that will build your business. |
Or maybe it should be "Make the customer feel like they're always right". Sometimes the customer is not right, but we still need to satisfy them to the best of our ability. |
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10/16/2009 12:00:11 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Ken:
If you do try to make it right, are professional, then at what point do you move on? |
Good point - not something I have ever had to deal with (touch wood) - but I guess you would start out by asking, "how can we make this better?". Then let negotiations commence - if the 270+ photos are of a high standard, then by all means dont just roll over and be submissive - try to work through it. I know some people are shouters and screamers and STAMP THEIR FEET UNTIL THEY GET THEIR OWN WAY. But most of the time things can be worked through I am sure.
There is one thing in the original post that puts me on the photographers side, you said you shot the wedding months ago - exactly how long was there between the bride receiving the photos and her complaining - if it was like 5 months then I would say that was unacceptable - surely she would know from the first few weeks that photos were missing, were not upto scratch etc.. But if she let you know in under 12 weeks then I would say that was in a timely manner..
Give us some more facts, lets see some shots and we could go from there..
BTW, thank god Prof-Fate isnt here still, can you imagine his rhetoric at this point on non-pros shooting weddings.. !!!!!BURN HERETICS BURN!!!!!!!
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 12:01:07. |
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10/16/2009 12:04:51 PM · #33 |
Wow...some new perspective on this hey... Based on the information that was given, and only if this is 100% correct and true, i dont believe it would be wrong to in a respectfull manner turn around and move on with life. I dont think anybody here is sugesting disrespect to the industry but rather respect that people should have to one another when professional service has been delivered. It would be a shame however when as photographers in a professional industry (often regarded as nothing of the sort) we be treated as floor rags and appologise for things none to our fault...The customer is always right....This is not a marriage. Having my Wife to be always right is enough in my life and I do love her very much by the way.
Best advise is to set up a contract and then we can start talking about what was fair..what was expected...and what was not delivered. Cheers |
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10/16/2009 12:12:32 PM · #34 |
And this is why I never shoot weddings.
I did for a while, but it wasn't worth the hassle. |
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10/16/2009 12:25:31 PM · #35 |
if you can take anything away from this it has to be to get the paperwork in order, and have a meeting with the couple to discuss any particular desires they may have.
My disappointment was more at the people who just outright said to 'cut and run'. I think that's a terrible attitude to have in a world where people are already dubious as to the necessity of a 'wedding photographer' and attitudes like that won't help anybody pay their bills.
Simms- good point about Prof Fate but we all know you can't shoot weddings unless you have a $2m studio and 15 contracts and everybody at the wedding has insurance.
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10/16/2009 12:31:51 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by RianBotes:
Wow...some new perspective on this hey... Based on the information that was given, and only if this is 100% correct and true, i dont believe it would be wrong to in a respectfull manner turn around and move on with life. I dont think anybody here is sugesting disrespect to the industry but rather respect that people should have to one another when professional service has been delivered. It would be a shame however when as photographers in a professional industry (often regarded as nothing of the sort) we be treated as floor rags and appologise for things none to our fault...The customer is always right....This is not a marriage. Having my Wife to be always right is enough in my life and I do love her very much by the way.
Best advise is to set up a contract and then we can start talking about what was fair..what was expected...and what was not delivered. Cheers |
To be honest the original post was very one sided and didn't actually tell us very much - it was more of a "Woe me, Woe me" kind of posting. That`s why I chipped in because we didn't really hear/see the brides case in this.. just the diluted down version skewed towards the OP.
If the OP gave her 270 rather lovely images that captured the story of the day, then he is in the right, but if it was a disjointed set of rather poor images with lots of shots of tables, place settings etc. then maybe she has a case. |
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10/16/2009 12:41:30 PM · #37 |
Simply put:
Do what you can, apologize for what you can't. At all times be polite, civil, professional, and show empathy for the client.
While not wedding photography, an outfit I worked for did a survey of customers who had come in with problems that were out of warranty and wanted them covered.
They focused on two specific groups. Group 1, got what they wanted. But characterized the people they dealt with as defensive, unsympathetic and uncaring.
Group 2, did not get what they wanted. But characterized the people they dealt with as open, caring, and sympathetic to their plight.
Group 1: 4 out of 5 said they would not likely come back for another purchase. Even though they got their repairs for free.
Group 2: an almost equal number said they would be back. Even though they did not get what they asked for and wound up paying for their repairs.
Moral of the story... Don't be defensive, treat people like you really care. Even better yet, do care. This may be her only wedding. It may also have been her only chance to have pictures of her Mom and Dad back together, if only for an instant. (Childhood fantasies of family restored die hard.) She may not have communicated the desire before the wedding, but at least acknowledge and understand her yearning.
My wife lost her Mom almost 16 years ago. Any image of her Mom, no matter how poorly executed, blurry, noisy, bright or dim, is like gold to her. This may not be about quality, or quantity. It may be about a little girl who still lives inside of a newlywed bride wanting things the way they used to be.
Edited to correct spelling...
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 12:42:45.
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10/16/2009 12:47:54 PM · #38 |
I would refer her to your business insurance which I am sure you have that protects your business against error and omissions. At that point your contract should state what you were to provide and if there is anything not provided that the contract states let your insurance company deal with it.
You do have a contract and insurance right?
Matt |
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10/16/2009 01:13:47 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The last two posts are the best on this thread. "The customer is always right." is a credo that will build your business. |
You will also go broke trying to satisfy unreasonable customers.
I had my own business for about 20 years, and sometimes you just have to send them packing.
I actually told one customer I could no longer afford to work on her car because she was so unreasonable.
This is not a case of representing an industry, and that this particular situation is a reflection on it, this is one case, and the one you get to deal with and try to make it as equitable as possible.
We are assuming professionalism is in place, and that ethics and proper protocol are being observed......at least I'm giving one of our own the benefit of the doubt.
If you want to try and sit down and establish waht's fair, that's always best, but just having an unreasonable customer make demands and acquiescing to them regardless is not a good course of action either.
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10/16/2009 04:09:45 PM · #40 |
| Well, obviously the customer isn't literally right all the time. They are often wrong. But the point is one should error on that side and bend over backwards trying to find an equitable solution. Only after no solution can be found should you walk. Word of mouth is spread primarily through a small percentage of your clients. Those people are talkers and they will spread the word about you like wildfire, either good or bad. The goal is to increase the odds that the story is good. You don't know who these people are going in so you have to assume all your clients are like this. |
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10/16/2009 04:32:53 PM · #41 |
I would kick her in the bag and run !
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10/16/2009 06:19:47 PM · #42 |
I am a photographer NOT A BUSINESSMAN, I do weddings only on the side. For a friends and family, that like my work and what they see (in this case the groom).
The old say "the customer is always right" is flat out WRONG! If I was a customer and hired you because I like your work, but realized you shoot with Canon, and tell you are wrong. Am I right? Of course NOT! I know that is a bit of a stretch to me, but I have seen some stupid/unreasonable customers in my life.
The, forget it and move on, is a easier way out. The most professional thing to do? Maybe, maybe not.
Personally, I'd like to try to find a happy medium. If I cannot, and she's just wants to find something to complain about. And I release my work that I don't feel are up to standards. Just think what well happen when she can now show proof of my poor work?
She wants photos that don't exist, that are nearly impossible to capture during a prelude or reception. She only paid me $400, and then wants to complain that there not enough photos. There wasn't any prior agreement to begin with, other then: Show up, take photos, get some formals, enjoy yourself, don't take too many of the kids, that's about it.
As someone put it, (not on DPC)
"the satisfaction of my brides has been inversely proportional to the amount they've paid. (or is that disproportional? I'm not a math girl).
cheap brides complain.
brides who pony up and choose who they want give you all the creative freedom and kudos in the world.
just my experience.
This summer, photographed a wedding for next to nothing for a family member. Three days after the wedding, she's wondering where her photos are.
"
I think that pretty much nailed it.
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 18:20:05.
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10/16/2009 06:34:15 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
I am a photographer NOT A BUSINESSMAN, I do weddings only on the side. For a friends and family, that like my work and what they see (in this case the groom).
The old say "the customer is always right" is flat out WRONG! If I was a customer and hired you because I like your work, but realized you shoot with Canon, and tell you are wrong. Am I right? Of course NOT! I know that is a bit of a stretch to me, but I have seen some stupid/unreasonable customers in my life.
The, forget it and move on, is a easier way out. The most professional thing to do? Maybe, maybe not.
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Answers didn't go your way eh?
Never mind, next time we'll sugar coat them for you so they go down a bit easier.
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 18:34:40. |
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10/16/2009 06:39:11 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Answers didn't go your way eh?
Never mind, next time we'll sugar coat them for you so they go down a bit easier. |
Nope, I am just strongly against that saying.
I have given them some more photos, as my attempt to satisfy the bride. Yet, without releasing what I feel is not up to standards.
As some one said, if she's a complainer, she's also a talker. She at least cannot complain about my effort on my part, the price, and most importantly quality
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 18:40:22.
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10/16/2009 07:34:58 PM · #45 |
Everyone has a Client from Hell. If you're really lucky, you'll only have 1. If it's her, the best thing to do is try to satisfy her, like you've done, then remove yourself from her. It's not worth stressing over them.
Just wait, three months from now she'll want to hire you to do something else, and the whole cycle will repeat :-)
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10/16/2009 08:44:38 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Answers didn't go your way eh?
Never mind, next time we'll sugar coat them for you so they go down a bit easier. |
Originally posted by ben4345:
Nope, I am just strongly against that saying. |
That's because it's a load of crap.
Customer relations is all about working with clients, not acqiescing to unreasonable demands because you're afraid that someone will trash you if you don't get your way.
The hardest lesson I had to learn in my business was to stick to my guns when I know I had done the right thing, AND the best that I could under the terms of the original agreement.
People have short memories if they don't get what they think they wanted, and if it bites them in the tail when they tried to circumvent the status quo.
Anybody that doesn't live under a rock knows that it costs thousands of dollars to have a top flight wedding photographr come do his/her thing.
Ben provided a service, it sounds like he more than amply provided for her, now she wants to go nuts?
This really doesn't sound like a situation where he's going to come out of it well no matter what he does, so why should he burn up more time and effort?
I'll bet he'll think long and hard before ever shooting another wedding for ANy amount of money now that he knows exactly how much work is involved and how quickly the whole thing can go south on the arbitrary whim of the bride.
It sounds an awful lot like the whole thing is hinged on her hopes that Mom & Dad could have been put together for the wedding.....and it didn't happen.
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10/16/2009 09:54:34 PM · #47 |
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10/16/2009 09:56:04 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by ben4345:
So0o0o0o, I did a wedding a few months ago..
The bride is now complaining there is not enough photos.
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She is probabbly bored about her husband after those months of mariage and now she is trying to find anyone to complain about anything.
Message edited by author 2009-10-16 21:56:28. |
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10/17/2009 12:22:13 AM · #49 |
Yeah it is....
Fact of the matter is that there are a lot of us M/DWCs out there and we do know what we're doing as we grow and improve.
What it also has done is to force the halfway hacks who thought they had a monopoly out, and allow the truly competent professionals to do their thing.
I don't get in the way of a guy who's there on contract.....I pay attention, but like so many parents and skilled amateurs, I'm there at most games and I get shots that the kids love because we know who we're shooting.
Right now there are two images that roll in on the schools electronic board in the main lobby of the field hockey team and four seniors on the team messing around. I shot them the same day that the "Official" team photographs were done.
The official photog didn't get *this* shot.....and I didn't charge the school to use it for their bulletin board.
Those girls will get to have that little memory thanks to a grateful Dad.
There is room for everyone to get along, as long as mutual respect is observed.
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10/17/2009 12:39:20 AM · #50 |
definitely worth a read.
as a MWC, as most of the pros here and in the article would refer to me, i have to say that my presence forces the "pros" to actually do something.
when i started shooting youth football (ages 6 - 13), 4 seasons ago, i was the only one.
at one of the games this season, there were 7 of us on the field. ...
"my" team has the highest attendance and one of strongest programs in our conference -- this translates to a lot of wins and a lot of pictures. as a result, several of the "pros" have decided they need to shoot on "my" field as well.
the end result is that I am forced to do my best, and this makes me better photographer.
and i could go into a LOT more about it, but it is off topic.
++++++++++++++++++
as for the bride, do the best you can to make her happy, and if you see that the moon wouldn't even make you happy, you may just have to say, "I've delivered over and beyond what I promised I would deliver. There is nothing else; I'm sorry if this displeases you in any way." Then, move on.
I say that because I was involved in a situation in the past (i was not the photog) where I was allowing the photog to put the images on my site (long story, not interesting) after she had delivered the amount of prints they had agreed to.
the bride wasn't happy and wanted to order online.
the photog mailed the couple a "check card" with $50 or $75 more on it to help with more prints.
the couple claimed to have never gotten it, but the photog was able to track it and saw that they did use it -- just not on prints.
we then sent them more prints, which they also claimed to have never gotten, and begin hinting at litigation.
at this point, we had had enough, sent them a listing of what we had sent (and had proof of sending -- see I did learn something at dpc), and asked them to review the contract they had signed for the wedding. when they played dumb about the contract (we signed a contract??? really??), the photog was able to produce her copy, prove that she had gone over and beyond the call of duty and expectations, and the couple hasn't been heard from since.
and oh, the lessons i learned from that adventure.
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