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09/23/2009 02:58:41 PM · #101 |
| I think it translates to "god roots for my team" unless of course you're a Cubs fan, we all know god hates the Cubs. |
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09/23/2009 03:02:11 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
There is no possibility of proof or disproof, and contrary observations or alternative models are simply declared false. |
This is your giant blind spot Shannon which has been evident every time we talk. Your steadfast belief that truth can only be discovered through the Scientific Method. It ignores a whole body of knowledge which can be generically labelled "philosophy". I have no way of making you see because you are so set in your way. |
Does God intervene in the universe? |
I would be interested in DrAchoo's view on this - if God intervenes in the universe, then it is not simply a matter of philosophy. If God does not intervene, then what relevance does God have? |
For an excellent treatise on this very question, read CS Lewis' Miracles. God does intervene in our universe, but not in a regular or orderly way which would preclude proof through regular and orderly observation. In other words, you can't use a scientific experiment to detect singular events. |
True. I say something similar in my book, Unicorns exist, where I state in chapter 78 that the almighty hoof touches us in ways that can not be measured. This is due to volume.
Not to make light of your beliefs but as an agnostic when you remove the burden of proof then what I just said suddenly becomes just as plausible as what your suggesting.
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09/23/2009 03:07:31 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Not to make light of your beliefs but as an agnostic when you remove the burden of proof then what I just said suddenly becomes just as plausible as what your suggesting. |
That's basicaly the founding principle of the pastafarian church and the theisis of the Flying Spaghetti Monster |
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09/23/2009 03:11:21 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by yanko:
True. I say something similar in my book, Unicorns exist, where I state in chapter 78 that the almighty hoof touches us in ways that can not be measured. This is due to volume.
Not to make light of your beliefs but as an agnostic when you remove the burden of proof then what I just said suddenly becomes just as plausible as what your suggesting. |
I think you are just revealing you are a bit light in the intellectual loafers. Or you're just being annoying. You pick.
Message edited by author 2009-09-23 15:11:50. |
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09/23/2009 03:23:03 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
ok, i reread it. it says that i have to believe that Jesus existed then i would have eternal life. |
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09/23/2009 03:30:06 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
ok, i reread it. it says that i have to believe that Jesus existed then i would have eternal life. |
Pretty simple, huh? And yet... |
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09/23/2009 03:33:57 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
ok, i reread it. it says that i have to believe that Jesus existed then i would have eternal life. |
Right, and unless I'm missing Jeb's point, he is talking about doing good stuff on earth so you get a reward by going to heaven. That is antithetical to the Christian belief that faith is all that is required and your deeds have little to nothing to do with your salvation. This is not to say we aren't concerned with our actions, but they are divorced from our salvation. In Ephesians Paul says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." In this way Christianity is separate from every other major world religion. |
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09/23/2009 03:42:26 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
True. I say something similar in my book, Unicorns exist, where I state in chapter 78 that the almighty hoof touches us in ways that can not be measured. This is due to volume.
Not to make light of your beliefs but as an agnostic when you remove the burden of proof then what I just said suddenly becomes just as plausible as what your suggesting. |
I think you are just revealing you are a bit light in the intellectual loafers. Or you're just being annoying. You pick. |
Come on Jason, if my argument is so light weight then you should easily knock it out of the park instead of questioning my intellect. Now granted, I'm not always serious in these threads so if you're annoyed by that (or something else) then just say so and leave the personal attacks out of it. Ok?
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09/23/2009 03:44:01 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"a bit light in the intellectual loafers." |
LOL- Never heard that one before.
ETA- Um, yeah, what Yanko said. Still funny tho. ;-)
Message edited by author 2009-09-23 15:44:54. |
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09/23/2009 03:55:19 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Theoretically, through most religions as my limited knowledge understands, we are all children of God, however you choose to address him, but why must the other views be wrong? Can't they just be different? |
Here is your problem. There is no theory about it. We all have the opportunity to turn towards the *right* path (that path dependent upon the religion in question). Most religions hold to a belief that they are the 'chosen ones' - the ones with the correct answers and a path to God. Within their own group, they are all children of God. The same does not extend to non-believers. (just ask a fundamentalist christian if a Jew is a child of God. The answer will be quite interesting, particularly from certain fundamentalist sects).
When looked at collectively and in general, all members of religious organizations who uphold monotheism are 'children of THEIR God.' They are not, however, children of each other's God.
Way back when, everyone who lived in the US was a citizen (broad definition). But, if you wanted to vote and hold power, you had to be white, male, and a property owner. Its kinda like that. |
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09/23/2009 04:00:10 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Right, and unless I'm missing Jeb's point, he is talking about doing good stuff on earth so you get a reward by going to heaven. That is antithetical to the Christian belief that faith is all that is required and your deeds have little to nothing to do with your salvation. This is not to say we aren't concerned with our actions, but they are divorced from our salvation. In Ephesians Paul says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." In this way Christianity is separate from every other major world religion. |
Dr. Achoo is actually quite right in this point. Just ask about dispensation and indulgences - how the rich in the Catholic Church 'bought' their way into heaven. And we all know that confession and absolution plays way more into getting into heaven than actual good deeds do. |
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09/23/2009 04:01:14 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
just ask a fundamentalist christian if a Jew is a child of God. The answer will be quite interesting, particularly from certain fundamentalist sects. |
It certainly would be given the fact that Jesus was Jewish. |
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09/23/2009 04:03:52 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
True. I say something similar in my book, Unicorns exist, where I state in chapter 78 that the almighty hoof touches us in ways that can not be measured. This is due to volume.
Not to make light of your beliefs but as an agnostic when you remove the burden of proof then what I just said suddenly becomes just as plausible as what your suggesting. |
I think you are just revealing you are a bit light in the intellectual loafers. Or you're just being annoying. You pick. |
Come on Jason, if my argument is so light weight then you should easily knock it out of the park instead of questioning my intellect. Now granted, I'm not always serious in these threads so if you're annoyed by that (or something else) then just say so and leave the personal attacks out of it. Ok? |
I know you well enough I feel comfortable busting on your a bit. I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation here and lately your posts on these threads need a rim shot .WAV attached.
The point of my post was to say that you cannot find a non-material phenomenon with a material test. You do not expect to find ultraviolet light with an infrared camera. The materialist's standard answer is, "but the only valid tests ARE material. I will accept no other." Rationally the answer makes a priori assumptions and is, therefore, not valid.
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
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09/23/2009 04:04:36 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
ok, i reread it. it says that i have to believe that Jesus existed then i would have eternal life. |
Many believe he existed. Not all of those people will have eternal life.
Christianity - Short Version
John 3:16
"...whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life."
That "believes in Him" is the crux of Christianity.
What does it mean to "believe"?
Do I "believe"?
Do I "believe" enough?
What do I "believe"?
All of these questions and more have been asked and answers have been attempted for 2000 years.
Christianity - Longer Version
I, for one, "Believe in Him".
I believe that God has standards that I have failed to live up to.
Because I have failed to meet those standards, I will not get to live with Him in heaven.
No one can achieve those standards.
No one can achieve those standards because some guy, (Adam), a lot of years ago, ate an apple that changed him. Opened his eyes to the "knowledge of good and evil". Since he now new the difference between "right and wrong", he was accountable for doing "right". Doing "wrong", would make him ineligible to be with God in Heaven, because Holy God can not\will not abide any sin in His presence. And he passed on all of the genetic bad stuff to all of us.
God said, "Hey, if you can follow these 10 rules, I'll let you in to heaven." (10 commandments).
Nobody could.
Of course, God knew we couldn't. He was just trying to get us all to understand that we couldn't. He said if we gave a sacrifice, it would "cover" our breaking of the rules with blood. He would accept that covering, and we could still live with him in heaven when we died. (Jewish tradition\religion).
In typical manmade fashion, we created over 600 additional "clarification of the rules". (The Torah).
After a while, God tired of his "chosen people" ignoring him and flaunting the rules. He decided that He Himself (in human form - Jesus) would come down here and become the sacrifice once and for all.
He was born into this world a human, lived a life without sin, and died a cruel death. His Father, spiritual self, God in heaven persona, applied ALL of the sins of ALL of the people who had ever and would ever live against the account of this human God\Man\self. (Jesus), on ONE and only ONE condition.
That you BELIEVE that he (Jesus) is God\Son of God and that he paid the penalty for you for not being able to live up to his standards. Granted, it's not your fault you can't live up to those standards, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't and haven't.
Anyway, that's the long version of what John 3:16 embodies.
Now, that said, I'm sure that I have probably got parts of that wrong, have over simplified, mixed analogies, and generally mucked up the works.
BUT, that's the best I've got for today.
...and I thank you for your support. :}
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09/23/2009 04:05:35 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dahkota:
just ask a fundamentalist christian if a Jew is a child of God. The answer will be quite interesting, particularly from certain fundamentalist sects. |
It certainly would be given the fact that Jesus was Jewish. |
shhhhh
we don't talk about that! |
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09/23/2009 04:07:20 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
I can't believe anyone still believes in free will. Sheesh! It is 2009, you know. Though it is a heart warming/feel good concept. |
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09/23/2009 04:12:01 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Right, and unless I'm missing Jeb's point, he is talking about doing good stuff on earth so you get a reward by going to heaven. That is antithetical to the Christian belief that faith is all that is required and your deeds have little to nothing to do with your salvation. This is not to say we aren't concerned with our actions, but they are divorced from our salvation. In Ephesians Paul says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." In this way Christianity is separate from every other major world religion. |
But doesn't that go against what Jesus was preaching? Didn't he praised the man who went against religious law to help a fellow (and sick if I recall) man? I'm sorry if my memory isn't very accurate so I can't exactly quote the parable, but it seems to me that, to Jesus, doing good to others was way (way way way!) more important than religious diligence. no?
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09/23/2009 04:12:20 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
I can't believe anyone still believes in free will. Sheesh! It is 2009, you know. Though it is a heart warming/feel good concept. |
If Free Will doesn't exist, I have no choice in my belief. I am a product of the rapidly moving molecules in my brain. It's a Catch 22 and I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. |
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09/23/2009 04:12:40 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
I can't believe anyone still believes in free will. Sheesh! It is 2009, you know. Though it is a heart warming/feel good concept. |
:-)
hey Courtenay, thanks for leaving a great comment on my "missed focus" entry btw. |
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09/23/2009 04:14:12 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
I can't believe anyone still believes in free will. Sheesh! It is 2009, you know. Though it is a heart warming/feel good concept. |
If Free Will doesn't exist, I have no choice in my belief. I am a product of the rapidly moving molecules in my brain. It's a Catch 22 and I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. |
quite a problem huh? :-) |
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09/23/2009 04:16:07 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps another example, rather than looking for evidence of God intervening in the universe would be to ask how we would find evidence of Free Will? That is, if our mind is greater than the sum of its parts and there is a "ghost in the machine", how would you find it? At the least, the answer is "not with material tests". |
I can't believe anyone still believes in free will. Sheesh! It is 2009, you know. Though it is a heart warming/feel good concept. |
If Free Will doesn't exist, I have no choice in my belief. I am a product of the rapidly moving molecules in my brain. It's a Catch 22 and I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. |
John 3:8 calls it "the wind".
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09/23/2009 04:23:57 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The point of my post was to say that you cannot find a non-material phenomenon with a material test. |
How would anything exist or miracles occur in the real world without any physical interaction? "Let there be light" and "let there be locusts" require interaction with a physical universe. If there can be no contact with or detection of another realm, then that realm by definition cannot cause things to exist or happen in the real world.
Also, how exactly do the Ten Commandments fit in with the "deeds don't matter" premise? That other various directions for conduct would appear to be an irreconcilable contradiction of a "faith only" test. |
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09/23/2009 04:25:24 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by JH:
Theism is based on a fear of no afterlife. All mainstream religions offer the promise of some kind of afterlife, resurrection, or reincarnation.
One of the hardest truths to accept when you become an atheist is that there is nothing after death. When you die, that's it - game over. You return to the same state of nothingness that you existed in before you were born.
But when you do accept that truth, the need for religion is nullified. |
Well......though I have my issues with the afterlife theory, I have to say that calling the complete lack of one a truth to be a bit........permanent.
We don't know for certain that there isn't one, we just cannot prove there is, either. |
Occam's razor. You tread on an ant, it ceases to exist. You shoot a chimpanzee, it ceases to exist. Humans are simply bald apes. Why should our brain or consciousness function any differently to anything else in the animal kingdom? Why should we have some special unseen force that somehow encapsulates our consciousness and ensures our existence after our brain dies?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Shouldn't you just live right while you're here because it's the good thing to do, rather than out of hope or fear of the afterlife? |
Absolutely.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I do believe in God, but I get into trouble with the afterlife people because I refuse to take a stance on it. It'd be4 nice if there was one, but I'm sure as heck not goinmg to base my life's behaviors on what may or may not bethere later. |
It would be terrible if there was an afterlife. I would prefer to cease to exist. An afterlife would be everlasting torture.
Think about it - The afterlife lasts for eternity, an infinite time. If you enter the afterlife and are aware of the fact you are in an afterlife then your consciousness/spirit/soul would also be aware of the passage of time. You have an infinite amount of time on your hands. Enough time to count the atoms of the Universe. In other words, infinite boredom.
Also, if you enter the afterlife with all the memories you retained while alive, then you face unhappiness - what if your loved ones aren't there as well? - And you can't be unhappy in the presence of God. Scrub these memories before entering the afterlife, and its no longer 'you', but merely some faint imprint of what you once were. Hardly fitting reward.
No. Whichever way I look at it, the thoughts of an afterlife is more frightening to me than that of eternal nothingness. I choose nothingness.
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09/23/2009 04:32:23 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by shanksware:
Many believe he existed. Not all of those people will have eternal life.
Christianity - Short Version
John 3:16
"...whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life." |
I do not believe that Jesus as a person existed. I do not believe in the existence of a god(s). I do believe that the bible is a work of fiction with some loose ties to historical events. I do not believe in superstition, supernaturalism, or life everlasting. Amen. |
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09/23/2009 04:34:48 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by JH:
Also, if you enter the afterlife with all the memories you retained while alive, then you face unhappiness - what if your loved ones aren't there as well? |
There's an interesting point to ponder. Since most major religions, and even sub-denominations within them, hold that only their followers will enter heaven, it would mean that most people are stopped at the pearly gates by big bouncers in white robes and sunglasses. Chances are, you wouldn't be reunited with many friends or relatives. Not that you'd remember them anyway... no brain = no memories.
Reincarnation itself is a contradiction of eternal peace or suffering: if you go to heaven or hell forever, then your "spirit" obviously can't come back.
Message edited by author 2009-09-23 16:42:28. |
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