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09/18/2009 07:17:40 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. I would agree with you re:atheism rejecting God (not necessarily the supernatural world in total) but I don't think all theists actively turn away the material world. I think, often, it is a consequence of their lack of awareness of alternatives. As to those theists that have examined both worlds, I would agree with your conclusion. I think my experience plays a little in my thoughts here; I have known many fundamentalist christians (having spent a couple of years in the bible belt) who had never even met a jewish person, let alone a buddhist or muslim. Their surprise at alternative belief systems led me to believe they didn't understand the world without a belief system either. They didn't actively reject it, they just didn't know it existed. |
I agree. In addition, many atheists (perhaps most) were previously theists, and some theists were previously atheists. Some might even flip back and forth over the course of their lives. To me, the most incomprehensible concept of all is that a hundred people could each express disbelief in every god but their own without a problem, yet the idea that someone could disbelieve all 100 is considered radically different. :-/ |
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09/18/2009 07:47:27 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I agree. In addition, many atheists (perhaps most) were previously theists, and some theists were previously atheists. Some might even flip back and forth over the course of their lives. To me, the most incomprehensible concept of all is that a hundred people could each express disbelief in every god but their own without a problem, yet the idea that someone could disbelieve all 100 is considered radically different. :-/ |
I guess it just represents a quantum change in idea. For you to believe in a supernatural explanation for an unexplained phenomenon would the same. You would say it makes no scientific sense to believe in such a thing (and perhaps rightly so). They might counter that rationally they cannot conclude there is "nothing else". I fully realize that conclusion makes no sense to you but there are many, many educated people out there where it does. You cannot conclude we are not all atheists only because we haven't travelled the road as far as you have. |
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09/18/2009 07:48:22 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. I would agree with you re:atheism rejecting God (not necessarily the supernatural world in total) but I don't think all theists actively turn away the material world. I think, often, it is a consequence of their lack of awareness of alternatives. As to those theists that have examined both worlds, I would agree with your conclusion. I think my experience plays a little in my thoughts here; I have known many fundamentalist christians (having spent a couple of years in the bible belt) who had never even met a jewish person, let alone a buddhist or muslim. Their surprise at alternative belief systems led me to believe they didn't understand the world without a belief system either. They didn't actively reject it, they just didn't know it existed. |
You can take a quantum of solace in that such people similarly annoy me as well... :) |
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09/18/2009 08:01:36 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You can take a quantum of solace in that such people similarly annoy me as well... :) |
Wait! I didn't say they annoy me, though the one that tried to attack me over a pool table came close. Rather, I find it fascinating, just as I find both you and Scalvert fascinating. I learn so much from the interactions here - not just about beliefs themselves but about how they come about and how they fit together...I want to be able to walk in everyone's shoes someday... |
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09/18/2009 08:45:29 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You can take a quantum of solace in that such people similarly annoy me as well... :) |
Wait! I didn't say they annoy me, though the one that tried to attack me over a pool table came close. Rather, I find it fascinating, just as I find both you and Scalvert fascinating. I learn so much from the interactions here - not just about beliefs themselves but about how they come about and how they fit together...I want to be able to walk in everyone's shoes someday... |
On that note, I have an honest question. What do you think pantheism (the name I'll give your belief system, but don't get hung up on it) provides better than other worldviews? In other words, why do you believe what you believe or if you were selling, why would I be buying? I'd love to know and this isn't any "gotcha journalism". I'm not going to come back with an A-HA retort. |
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09/18/2009 10:04:22 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
On that note, I have an honest question. What do you think pantheism (the name I'll give your belief system, but don't get hung up on it) provides better than other worldviews? In other words, why do you believe what you believe or if you were selling, why would I be buying? I'd love to know and this isn't any "gotcha journalism". I'm not going to come back with an A-HA retort. |
The simplest answer: there is no us and them. this helps avoid a lot of anger and frustration in life. ;)
I've been sitting here for 30 minutes trying answer your question in a way I think will be understandable. I have written and deleted paragraphs of 'answer,' but I thought none really answered what you are asking. I can answer with what I believe but I cannot sell it to you. I feel no need to convert anyone because I think it would be false. I cannot tell you why - can you tell me why you believe in Jesus? You know your path is right; I am equally sure of mine. If either of us were unsure, then our faith wouldn't be worth much, would it?
What I believe: Everything is God and God is everything.
What this provides me: An overwhelming sense of peace and joy. (I am assuming the same holds true for you. Or at least I would hope so). Everything has a reason. Everything is equally valuable. Everything is equally spiritual. Everything depends on everything else. And everything matters.
In most religions, there is a sense or belief of us and them. The christians and pagans for example. this gives a group the excuse to judge the other, a sense of superiority, a moral claim that they can annihilate the other with no repercussions. the same holds true for different races - differences allow one group to subjugate the other. Even sex is used to justify bad treatment of one group towards the other. And humans extend this to the natural world with their belief that they are God's chosen. But what if, in the eyes of God, it was all the same? What if, as everything is God, people actually treated animals and plants and each other, as they would be treated? Would the world change? If we all became Us, if each person thought of everyone else as an extension of themself, do you think people's attitude would change towards each other? Now extend that to the world at large.
Do you notice how different the world looks after it rains? there is a freshness, a cleanliness, that just seems to be missing before that. That is what the world looks like to me. Every moment, everything, is always new. I spend my days just marveling at the wonder of it all, at how it all interconnects, how the wings of a butterfly can affect the weather a thousand miles away.... Sucks for my photography though - pictures cannot live up to the real thing. I'm trying though.
I know this isn't what you wanted, but this is what I have to give you. My belief removes self-doubt, takes the power out of the hands of something outside me and places it firmly in my grasp, relieves me of much anger and frustration at the world in general. Also, I don't have to wait to enter heaven to be part of God. I'm already there.
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09/18/2009 11:30:37 PM · #82 |
The fact is... there is no answer.. yet.... The answer might be out there somewhere in this vast universe. But for now.. we don't know the answer.. that's why it's called a belief. So.. believe what you want to =)
I believe in what I can see in front of me. I believe in what's right and wrong. The rest is just a scam for money and power. |
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09/18/2009 11:49:48 PM · #83 |
Thanks for the answer dahkota. As much as you thought it wasn't what I was looking for, it was exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate you taking the time to write it down.
I'm sure sometimes it may come across that I have no interest in other worldviews, but it's far from the truth. There is a new physician at work who happens to be a Pakistani, muslim-raised, current atheist who thinks Dawkins and Hitchens are the best things since sliced bread. The guy is a really pleasant guy and I would love to just sit down and chew on his brain a while. Why is he the way he is and what does he have to offer?
I caught earlier that you like to see how different worldviews interconnect. Personally, I love to see why people who have thought about it wind up with the worldview they have.
Message edited by author 2009-09-19 13:02:07. |
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09/21/2009 10:50:24 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. |
Said like that, I'd say that agnostics reject God (and everything involved), atheist simply don't acknowledge His existence (or just don't care)
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09/23/2009 05:22:39 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
There is no possibility of proof or disproof, and contrary observations or alternative models are simply declared false. |
This is your giant blind spot Shannon which has been evident every time we talk. Your steadfast belief that truth can only be discovered through the Scientific Method. It ignores a whole body of knowledge which can be generically labelled "philosophy". I have no way of making you see because you are so set in your way. |
Does God intervene in the universe? |
I would be interested in DrAchoo's view on this - if God intervenes in the universe, then it is not simply a matter of philosophy. If God does not intervene, then what relevance does God have?
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09/23/2009 07:12:57 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. |
Originally posted by merchillio:
Said like that, I'd say that agnostics reject God (and everything involved), atheist simply don't acknowledge His existence (or just don't care) |
You have that backwards.....atheists say there is NO God.....agnostics leave the door open a crack.....just in case.....8>)
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09/23/2009 07:15:11 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. |
Originally posted by merchillio:
Said like that, I'd say that agnostics reject God (and everything involved), atheist simply don't acknowledge His existence (or just don't care) |
You have that backwards.....atheists say there is NO God.....agnostics leave the door open a crack.....just in case.....8>) |
Thank God for antitheism then.
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09/23/2009 07:49:15 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
What I believe: Everything is God and God is everything.
What this provides me: An overwhelming sense of peace and joy. (I am assuming the same holds true for you. Or at least I would hope so). Everything has a reason. Everything is equally valuable. Everything is equally spiritual. Everything depends on everything else. And everything matters.
In most religions, there is a sense or belief of us and them. The christians and pagans for example. this gives a group the excuse to judge the other, a sense of superiority, a moral claim that they can annihilate the other with no repercussions. |
Though I'm not sure I'm on exactly the same page throughout, this is an equitable description of where I stand.
My boss is probably one of the most good and decent Christians I have met. He's honest about his faith and beliefes, and comfortable and secure in them.
I feel that, in a way, I've crossed paths with him to.....I dunno if test him is the right way to say it as it attaches too much importance to my role, but I have difficult questions and views that make him go down paths that I'm sure are uncomfortable for him. Yet he's kind and gracious enough to bravely enter into discussion with me time and again.
Here's an encapsulation of the basic dilemma as I see it:
I have *NO* religious upbringing other than being an American. That implies a Christian surrounding since I grew up mostly in Middle America, yet I never had Bible classes, nor was I dragged off to whatever church that was defined for me as "The Way".
So.....let's take my boss, Les, who is a wonderful, religious, spiritual, caring, and decent man, and let's bring in Muhammed, a Muslim, who also has a lovely family, is active at his mosque, a wonderful, religious, spiritual, caring, and decent man, and to the mix we can throw in Jacob, the Jew, who is wonderful, religious, you know where I'm going......
Okay, we're all sitting around the table, and I have the utmost respect and affection for these three truly good and decent men, who care deeply for the other of God's(Allah's) children who walk this path on Earth together, yet each has it as a basic tenet of their religion that unless they embrace the faith in *their* manner, they will not achieve salvation.
So here I am, a man who has grown up with no faith or belief system pressed upon him, left pretty much to my own whimsy, and I'm looking to understand the concept of a good, loving God.
The Jew says if I believe that Jesus is the Savior, I'm toast as his religion doesn't accept that, the Muslim says that no God stands before or equal to Allah, and the Christian says that he must accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior to achieve Salvation.
Okay.....back to the poor schlub sitting at the table with these three......what do I think?????
It makes *NO* sense to me that any Almighty being could possibly X out two of the three of these decent and good men on a technicality.
I cannot believe anything but that the God of these three men is one and the same, but that through their education and upbringing, they have chosen albeit unconsciously, to accept only their way as the "right" way.
Theoretically, through most religions as my limited knowledge understands, we are all children of God, however you choose to address him, but why must the other views be wrong? Can't they just be different?
If they all have their histories and irrefutable texts, then how can one be more right?
It's led me to a very private, and personal relationship with what I'd call the God of my understanding. I pretty much haven't found any religion that really practices acceptance and tolerance of all God's children, and that seems so sad to me.
It boggles my mind to see people, convinced that their way is the only way, look at me with sorrow, and something bordering on pity that I do not share their beliefs. Their beliefs condemn me, and somehow, it surely doesn't seem right that one human being should do that to another.
So.....I struggle, and continue to search for truth and meaning in life, and will wonder to my dying day how it managed to get screwed up so badly that one decent and kind, wonderful and religious man, could look another in the eye, and *know*......he's gonna burn in Hell, simply because of a difference in upbringing.
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09/23/2009 09:26:40 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It makes *NO* sense to me that any Almighty being could possibly X out two of the three of these decent and good men on a technicality.
I cannot believe anything but that the God of these three men is one and the same, but that through their education and upbringing, they have chosen albeit unconsciously, to accept only their way as the "right" way. |
When you start thinking about the even bigger picture you see what a nonsense the whole concept is: there are a few hundred thousand other gods that have been imputed over the millenia, and there is no guarantee that this unknowable god's views of "good" would necessarily correspond with anything that we are familiar with.
Basically, the whole concept of god and an afterlife with holy admission criteria is totally arbitrary and somewhat absurd.
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09/23/2009 09:37:31 AM · #90 |
Theism is based on a fear of no afterlife. All mainstream religions offer the promise of some kind of afterlife, resurrection, or reincarnation.
One of the hardest truths to accept when you become an atheist is that there is nothing after death. When you die, that's it - game over. You return to the same state of nothingness that you existed in before you were born.
But when you do accept that truth, the need for religion is nullified.
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09/23/2009 10:41:04 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dahkota:
Reject is an active word; it implies intention and purpose. |
Originally posted by merchillio:
Said like that, I'd say that agnostics reject God (and everything involved), atheist simply don't acknowledge His existence (or just don't care) |
You have that backwards.....atheists say there is NO God.....agnostics leave the door open a crack.....just in case.....8>) |
sorry, my bad |
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09/23/2009 11:39:48 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
There is no possibility of proof or disproof, and contrary observations or alternative models are simply declared false. |
This is your giant blind spot Shannon which has been evident every time we talk. Your steadfast belief that truth can only be discovered through the Scientific Method. It ignores a whole body of knowledge which can be generically labelled "philosophy". I have no way of making you see because you are so set in your way. |
Does God intervene in the universe? |
I would be interested in DrAchoo's view on this - if God intervenes in the universe, then it is not simply a matter of philosophy. If God does not intervene, then what relevance does God have? |
For an excellent treatise on this very question, read CS Lewis' Miracles. God does intervene in our universe, but not in a regular or orderly way which would preclude proof through regular and orderly observation. In other words, you can't use a scientific experiment to detect singular events. |
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09/23/2009 12:47:43 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by JH:
Theism is based on a fear of no afterlife. All mainstream religions offer the promise of some kind of afterlife, resurrection, or reincarnation.
One of the hardest truths to accept when you become an atheist is that there is nothing after death. When you die, that's it - game over. You return to the same state of nothingness that you existed in before you were born.
But when you do accept that truth, the need for religion is nullified. |
Well......though I have my issues with the afterlife theory, I have to say that calling the complete lack of one a truth to be a bit........permanent.
We don't know for certain that there isn't one, we just cannot prove there is, either.
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward.
Shouldn't you just live right while you're here because it's the good thing to do, rather than out of hope or fear of the afterlife?
I do believe in God, but I get into trouble with the afterlife people because I refuse to take a stance on it. It'd be4 nice if there was one, but I'm sure as heck not goinmg to base my life's behaviors on what may or may not bethere later.
Life is to live for the here and now, and to be as good to each other as we can for its own sake.
Just my $0.02 US......YMMV.....8>)
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09/23/2009 01:24:46 PM · #94 |
I found this recent interview from NPR's Fresh Air program pretty interesting:
Karen Armstrong, religious scholar and author of (most recently) A Case For God |
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09/23/2009 02:28:46 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
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09/23/2009 02:30:27 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I found this recent interview from NPR's Fresh Air program pretty interesting:
Karen Armstrong, religious scholar and author of (most recently) A Case For God |
I read her article in the New York Times where she did a piece along with Dawkins. I have to say I can think of many superior essayists to present a "Case for God"... |
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09/23/2009 02:36:45 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
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09/23/2009 02:47:49 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
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09/23/2009 02:55:17 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
I thought John 3:16 said Go NY Giants!
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09/23/2009 02:55:48 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
My issues arise simply because I don't much care for the principle of living right while we're here for the reward. |
IF Christianity falls under this category in your mind I think you have a very distorted view of the faith. Just saying. |
isn't that what John 3:16 basically states? |
That if you do good stuff you'll go to heaven? You need to reread John 3:16. |
I thought John 3:16 said Go NY Giants! |
Depends on the translation you use |
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