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09/29/2009 01:36:03 PM · #476 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
2445 people wade through a river teeming with crocodiles and are promptly eaten. The 2446th person goes through praying with all his might and comes through unscathed. To that person, it's undoubtedly a miracle and his faith is reaffirmed. To a rational person, the crocodiles were either full or missed one, and many of the other people who prayed just as fervently aren't around to discuss the results. |
Then god has given that person divine inspiration to pick exactly that place in line! Duh.
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09/29/2009 01:37:53 PM · #477 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
It's not that atheists just throw their hands up in the air and go "coincidence!" to discount 'supernatural' events they just can't seem to explain... it's that atheists (the smart ones anyway) know that the best and most likely answer IS coincidence, and we have the statistical and sociological research to back it up. |
My general reaction to this is that everybody has a different line where coincidence remains the "best and most likely" answer. What if the odds were 1:10? I think none of us would even think twice. 1:1 million? Less so. 1:1 quadrillion? 1:1 sextillion?
The common ground that can be found is that we should all realize we all know that chance exists. We differ on where we shift from coincidence being the "best and most likely" answer to believing that deck has been stacked by another power.
To Richard: I don't think there was anything particularly special about my "miracle". I think God works like that all the time. It was special to me because I was a total unknowing part of it. I had the front row seat. I know I knew nothing about the Letchford's situation and marvel at the coincidence. But I don't necessarily subscribe all chance events in my life to God. Ten years ago Jenn had a dream that her sister (in high school) was pregnant. There was no indication she was even sexually active. That day she got a call from her mom saying that, lo and behold, her sister was pregnant. Was that a message from God? I'm more likely to think it was odd coincidence in this case for some reason, but who knows? |
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09/29/2009 01:40:14 PM · #478 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
To the indigenous peoples of North & South America, Cortez & Columbus were both terrorists.
Who you are depends on who's viewing your perspective & intent. |
I dont think anyone who is moderately educated can deny this statement though. |
Who you are is usually left to the writers of the historic event (normally the winner) and may have no semblance to reality whatsoever. The wholesale slaughter of an indigenous people can only be viewed for what it is and surely cannot be left to interpretation.
Ray |
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09/29/2009 01:44:57 PM · #479 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
2445 people wade through a river teeming with crocodiles and are promptly eaten. The 2446th person goes through praying with all his might and comes through unscathed. To that person, it's undoubtedly a miracle and his faith is reaffirmed. To a rational person, the crocodiles were either full or missed one, and many of the other people who prayed just as fervently aren't around to discuss the results. |
Then god has given that person divine inspiration to pick exactly that place in line! Duh. |
Rather sad that this benevolent god opted to let 2445 people perish just so that the remnants of that society would witness this miracle.
Ray |
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09/29/2009 01:45:28 PM · #480 |
| SINNERS THAT WERE DUE FOR A SMITING! |
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09/29/2009 01:51:30 PM · #481 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
2445 people wade through a river teeming with crocodiles and are promptly eaten. The 2446th person goes through praying with all his might and comes through unscathed. To that person, it's undoubtedly a miracle and his faith is reaffirmed. To a rational person, the crocodiles were either full or missed one, and many of the other people who prayed just as fervently aren't around to discuss the results. |
Then god has given that person divine inspiration to pick exactly that place in line! Duh. |
Rather sad that this benevolent god opted to let 2445 people perish just so that the remnants of that society would witness this miracle. |
Crocodiles are His creation too. Perhaps he was just showing them some benevolence for a change?
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09/29/2009 05:28:12 PM · #482 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To Richard: I don't think there was anything particularly special about my "miracle". I think God works like that all the time. It was special to me because I was a total unknowing part of it. I had the front row seat. I know I knew nothing about the Letchford's situation and marvel at the coincidence. But I don't necessarily subscribe all chance events in my life to God. Ten years ago Jenn had a dream that her sister (in high school) was pregnant. There was no indication she was even sexually active. That day she got a call from her mom saying that, lo and behold, her sister was pregnant. Was that a message from God? I'm more likely to think it was odd coincidence in this case for some reason, but who knows? |
To pick up on what Matthew said, it appears then you're being led almost exclusively by your gut feelings. Is that a fair assessment? If you were being rational then wouldn't you be able to explain why you dismiss one coincidence as just odd and the other as miraculous?
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09/29/2009 06:55:57 PM · #483 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To Richard: I don't think there was anything particularly special about my "miracle". I think God works like that all the time. It was special to me because I was a total unknowing part of it. I had the front row seat. I know I knew nothing about the Letchford's situation and marvel at the coincidence. But I don't necessarily subscribe all chance events in my life to God. Ten years ago Jenn had a dream that her sister (in high school) was pregnant. There was no indication she was even sexually active. That day she got a call from her mom saying that, lo and behold, her sister was pregnant. Was that a message from God? I'm more likely to think it was odd coincidence in this case for some reason, but who knows? |
To pick up on what Matthew said, it appears then you're being led almost exclusively by your gut feelings. Is that a fair assessment? If you were being rational then wouldn't you be able to explain why you dismiss one coincidence as just odd and the other as miraculous? |
Meh. Yes and no. Miracles must be like pornography. I know it when I see it. I don't think it's fair to say I'm not being rational though. I understand statistics as well as the next guy and that plays a part in my assessment of the situation. Don't think I've completely dismissed the dream either. I have to say it was quite bizarre. Maybe one is more likely to accept the "miracle" if it's easier to understand how it would fit in to a larger plan.
Not to change the topic (hey, that NEVER happens on these threads), but an example of a phenomenon that could be interpreted differently depending on your worldview is the Third man phenomenon where people sense a benevolent force guiding them in times of extreme stress. The scientists are looking for a neurological explanation for such a phenomenon, but have not come up with it yet (there has been some progress, but no difinitive work), and the dualist is more willing to chalk it up to a "guardian angel" for lack of a better term. Who's right? Who's wrong? We don't know. (And before I get hit with it, I'm quite happy that people are investigating the phenomenon to their hearts content. I don't think we need to just stop looking and chalk it up to another reality.)
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09/29/2009 07:46:59 PM · #484 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
the Third man phenomenon where people sense a benevolent force guiding them in times of extreme stress. |
A very appropriate link from that page. It's a good read, and the incongruity between the poll results and the challenges is particularly interesting. |
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09/29/2009 07:57:18 PM · #485 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
the Third man phenomenon where people sense a benevolent force guiding them in times of extreme stress. |
A very appropriate link from that page. It's a good read, and the incongruity between the poll results and the challenges is particularly interesting. |
Was there a specific reference to this phenomenon or are you just talking in general? Just because I'm entertaining the idea that such a phenomenon is a real interaction with the dualist world doesn't mean I think people can bend nickles with their mind. The phenomenon itself is obviously quite real (ie. not a hoax), the question is whether it can be explained through materialist methods. |
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09/29/2009 08:18:18 PM · #486 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Was there a specific reference to this phenomenon or are you just talking in general? |
Just in general. Most of your posts fall under the"paranormal" umbrella.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The phenomenon itself is obviously quite real (ie. not a hoax), the question is whether it can be explained through materialist methods. |
Real phenomenon don't necessarily require physical explanations. |
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09/29/2009 09:20:46 PM · #487 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The phenomenon itself is obviously quite real (ie. not a hoax), the question is whether it can be explained through materialist methods. |
Depends on whether or not you subscribe to Jaynes' theory of a bicameral mind. Of course, there could be other scientific explanations, but that's one place to start, if you're at all interested.
Message edited by author 2009-09-29 21:21:52.
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09/29/2009 09:32:07 PM · #488 |
Originally posted by david_c:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The phenomenon itself is obviously quite real (ie. not a hoax), the question is whether it can be explained through materialist methods. |
Depends on whether or not you subscribe to Jaynes' theory of a bicameral mind. Of course, there could be other scientific explanations, but that's one place to start, if you're at all interested. |
Wow! You're the first person besides me, that I'm aware of, to bring up Jaynes and his theory in here ("here" being DPC); I've done so several times, usually to underwhelming response :-)
R.
Message edited by author 2009-09-29 21:33:43. |
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09/29/2009 10:28:04 PM · #489 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Wow! You're the first person besides me, that I'm aware of, to bring up Jaynes and his theory in here ("here" being DPC); I've done so several times, usually to underwhelming response :-) |
A shame the idea doesn't get more run in the mainstream. The book was a fascinating read.
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09/29/2009 10:44:00 PM · #490 |
I get a kick out of Dawkins' take on Jayne's work. "It is one of those books that is either complete rubbish or a work of consummate genius, nothing in between! Probably the former, but I'm hedging my bets." Amazing what a skeptic like Dawkins is willing to consider in order to preserve his wordview. We'd all attribute such irrational behavior to the simpleton theist, but a bourgeois man like Dawkins! The horror! :)
Message edited by author 2009-09-29 22:44:56. |
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09/29/2009 10:57:48 PM · #491 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Amazing what a skeptic like Dawkins is willing to consider in order to preserve his wordview. |
LOL
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09/30/2009 02:54:30 AM · #492 |
Speaking of miracles coincidences... any baseball fans catch this?
In a nutshell, the broadcaster before the game on Sunday predicted a home run by Matt Tuiasosopo of the Seattle Mariners. It was his first home run in the major leagues. Not only did he predict the home run but he was also correct in predicting which at bat (2nd), pitch count (3-1), type of pitch (fastball) and where the ball would land (second deck).
Message edited by author 2009-09-30 03:02:45.
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09/30/2009 04:09:06 AM · #493 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I know it when I see it. I don't think it's fair to say I'm not being rational though. |
"I don't think it's fair to say I'm not being rational"
v.
"I know it when I see it."
This appears to be the issue: a determination that can only be divined through personal, subjective assessment is unlikely to be a rational or calculated.
I would wholeheartedly trust your rationalism in many fields, but probably not in this area!
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09/30/2009 05:47:55 AM · #494 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
[Not to change the topic (hey, that NEVER happens on these threads), but an example of a phenomenon that could be interpreted differently depending on your worldview is the Third man phenomenon where people sense a benevolent force guiding them in times of extreme stress. The scientists are looking for a neurological explanation for such a phenomenon, but have not come up with it yet (there has been some progress, but no difinitive work), and the dualist is more willing to chalk it up to a "guardian angel" for lack of a better term. Who's right? Who's wrong? We don't know. (And before I get hit with it, I'm quite happy that people are investigating the phenomenon to their hearts content. I don't think we need to just stop looking and chalk it up to another reality.) |
Here is one of the reports noting the scientific research
//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197394/The-Third-Man-Factor-How-dire-peril-felt-sudden-presence-inspiring-survive.html
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09/30/2009 06:09:28 AM · #495 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Miracles must be like pornography. I know it when I see it. I don't think it's fair to say I'm not being rational though. I understand statistics as well as the next guy and that plays a part in my assessment of the situation. |
Okay, here's one for you. A child comes to you with a severe peanut allergy. You decide, as a last resort, to try enzyme potentiated desensitization treatment. In the meantime, the mother has spent every day in church praying hard for a miracle.
After six months of EPD, the patient arrives in your office eating a bag of dry-roasted peanuts. The mother is praising the Lord for this miracle.
Would you attribute this recovery to a divine miracle, or would you investigate the efficiency of your EPD treatment and write a case study to be published for the benefit of the medical community? |
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09/30/2009 07:14:28 AM · #496 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
2445 people wade through a river teeming with crocodiles and are promptly eaten. The 2446th person goes through praying with all his might and comes through unscathed. To that person, it's undoubtedly a miracle and his faith is reaffirmed. To a rational person, the crocodiles were either full or missed one, and many of the other people who prayed just as fervently aren't around to discuss the results. |
Then god has given that person divine inspiration to pick exactly that place in line! Duh. |
Rather sad that this benevolent god opted to let 2445 people perish just so that the remnants of that society would witness this miracle. |
Crocodiles are His creation too. Perhaps he was just showing them some benevolence for a change? |
...and this would be the result of a group prayer led by the "deacon" croc right??? :O) |
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09/30/2009 07:17:29 AM · #497 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Meh. Yes and no. Miracles must be like pornography. I know it when I see it. |
Actually your decision in this regard is base solely on what your perception of what a miracle is and may have no bearing whatsoever as to whether or not the event you witness does indeed constitute a miracle.
Ray |
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09/30/2009 08:28:58 AM · #498 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Amazing what a skeptic like Dawkins is willing to consider in order to preserve his wordview. |
LOL |
I'm guessing that was intentional irony. ;-)
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09/30/2009 09:34:50 AM · #499 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Meh. Yes and no. Miracles must be like pornography. I know it when I see it. |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Actually your decision in this regard is base solely on what your perception of what a miracle is and may have no bearing whatsoever as to whether or not the event you witness does indeed constitute a miracle.
Ray |
Not to mention the sliding scale of pornography.....
I'll bet my definition of pornography versus art is a *lot* different than that of Barry  glad2badad.
It's a photography site, with a hugely artistic population, and Barry is definitely in the minority in his views.
So.....which one of us is "righter"?.....8>)
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09/30/2009 11:08:07 AM · #500 |
| I could use a ride on that sliding scale of pornography. Heh. It would take a miracle... |
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