An unexpected religious conversation...

09/28/2009 07:30:20 PM · #451

Originally posted by GeneralE:

OK, and what about all the other impoverished congregations who (I'm sure) pray for succor and yet receive no gift emails? It seems to me that if God had a plan or a hand in this stuff, there ought to be some consistency of actions -- the acts of an arbitrary and capricious God are no more beneficial than "taking your chances," and any outcome may as well be attributed to such as to some undetectable yet all-powerful entity.

Would an insect be able to fathom the consistency of action of an advanced intelligence such as us? I doubt it. The terms "arbitrary" and "capricious" are entirely yours and I don't buy them.

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09/28/2009 07:45:15 PM · #452

Is this a miracle, a chance in a million, a cosmic joke, kharma...?

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trnqlty

Nikon D90

09/28/2009 07:56:39 PM · #453

A one in a million chance, considering there is infinite possibilities, isn't unlikely at all, just simply one in a million, happens everyday in one way or another.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

09/28/2009 08:04:30 PM · #454

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The terms "arbitrary" and "capricious" are entirely yours and I don't buy them.

That's a bury-your-head-in-the-sand answer. Even if prayers were answered only some of the time, there would still be a conspicuous trail of "luck" surrounding the faithful. Rather than consider that possibility, you use a foolproof excuse: when prayers are answered it's a miracle, and when they're not God must have had another purpose or that person wasn't worthy. If the result is indistinguishable from random chance, then it's no better than praying to Hera or broccoli. In all of human history, there has been nothing to suggest otherwise.

09/28/2009 08:11:50 PM · #455

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Thanks for your replies. I get a sense of what you are talking about, but I still wonder how the follower of this thinking experiences this oneness any more than someone else since this oneness "just is" as you put it. What am I gaining by being in tuned? Peace? Power? Fulfillment?

Let us suppose for the sake of this argument that miracles exist (I'm not saying they do or don't, I'm just asking those that don't believe in them to suspend their judgment for a moment). If a miracle happened to you, but you didn't know it happened, what good would it be? How would it change you? Its the same with experiencing the 'oneness' as you called it. Or, if God talked to you, but you weren't listening, how would that change you? Same thing.

Every seventeen years here in DC, we have a massive locust emergence. It is something to experience, to be honest, just because of its sheer magnitude (at least in my neighborhood). The sound alone drowns out lawn mowers, leaf blowers, cars...The locusts are so thick, it is impossible to walk without stepping on a dozen at a time. Its overwhelming, indescribable, and amazing. Its like that.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

And is something lost from this collective consciousness if there were no advanced life forms? You mention moral actions, but can a tree by moral? Can a rock? If not, would the collective be hurt if people and other advanced life stopped existing? This is more of just a "huh, what if?" question...

There would be nothing contemplating it. Moral actions are just one part, an example to which I thought you might relate. the locust swarm could be another if you wish. So could the movement of animals before an earthquake or hurricane. you are thinking of it too much in human terms. Let go of your ego and think in terms of life in general. Everything is so inter-related, so connected and dependent on everything else - birds understand magnetic fields, trees know when rain is coming before the weathermen do (and are better at predicting it), nature just understands itself better than we do, better than we can, even with all our technology and our gods... as I stated before, man gets in his own way...

09/28/2009 08:23:45 PM · #456

It doesn't change your point at all dahkota, but I'm thinking you are talking about cicadas instead of locusts. :)

09/28/2009 08:38:05 PM · #457

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

It doesn't change your point at all dahkota, but I'm thinking you are talking about cicadas instead of locusts. :)

Of course. Not that I was thinking plague or anything. I will say though, that ours sound more greek than kiwi. :)

Here they are!

Message edited by author 2009-09-28 20:41:05.

09/28/2009 09:30:18 PM · #458

We always called them "buzzy bugs". :) We don't have nearly as many here in Oregon.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

09/28/2009 11:20:02 PM · #459

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So you believe that was a miracle? What was it that sealed the deal for you? The fact that it was an even match of $500 dollars? What if the man only offered $400 and the church was still needing another $100? Not a miracle? What about other coincidences? Do you readily accept ALL coincidences as miracles? If not why? What's the qualifier?

yanko

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09/28/2009 11:30:20 PM · #460

Originally posted by dahkota:

The easiest way to think of it, beyond the material, is as a collective conscience.
Okay, you state that there is dualism, belief in two substances, and materialism, the believe in one substance. Well, how about if there is one substance with two different inclinations. Kind of like two sides of the same coin.

But there are already two sides (or states) in a materialist world. It's called matter and energy. Now if only the theist would stop confusing energy as something supernatural... :)

Message edited by author 2009-09-28 23:30:42.

Bear_Music

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09/28/2009 11:35:36 PM · #461

"Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy. Energy is Eternal Delight."

â�� William Blake

09/29/2009 12:00:33 AM · #462

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, the last half dozen posts clearly prove my point to Matthew. I'm not saying it's poor form by you guys, but I'm getting exactly what I expected. How would it be any different with any other miracle?

We all see what our worldview allows. I do. You do. Nobody is unbiased.

So you believe that was a miracle? What was it that sealed the deal for you? The fact that it was an even match of $500 dollars? What if the man only offered $400 and the church was still needing another $100? Not a miracle? What about other coincidences? Do you readily accept ALL coincidences as miracles? If not why? What's the qualifier?

I remember a line from Seinfeld I'll paraphrase. Miracles are gossamer and one does not dissect gossamer.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and simple ask that you have absolutely no pause for thought at the coincidence of such an event? Not even the smallest?

Message edited by author 2009-09-29 00:01:25.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

09/29/2009 01:27:12 AM · #463

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, the last half dozen posts clearly prove my point to Matthew. I'm not saying it's poor form by you guys, but I'm getting exactly what I expected. How would it be any different with any other miracle?

We all see what our worldview allows. I do. You do. Nobody is unbiased.

So you believe that was a miracle? What was it that sealed the deal for you? The fact that it was an even match of $500 dollars? What if the man only offered $400 and the church was still needing another $100? Not a miracle? What about other coincidences? Do you readily accept ALL coincidences as miracles? If not why? What's the qualifier?

I remember a line from Seinfeld I'll paraphrase. Miracles are gossamer and one does not dissect gossamer.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and simple ask that you have absolutely no pause for thought at the coincidence of such an event? Not even the smallest?

Pause for thought? Yes. However, since I don't view this event through the prism of a religious belief system I see it like any other coincidence. In other words, I have no need to elevate this coincidence above all others and call it a divine miracle. You do. To which I ask why? You have dissected this one so what was it you found that made this one so special?

Message edited by author 2009-09-29 01:29:06.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

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09/29/2009 02:02:40 AM · #464

How many different religious figures are there?
Several, although it may be more interesting to consider generic similarities than differences.
Why haven't I been smited for not worshiping one of them?
The generic similarity of being human constucts?
If I was clever enough.. I could probobly make up a new religion tommorow.
In which you may be smitten for misspelling probably.
There is no invisable presence that surrounds us and protects us.
How do you know?
There is no heaven or hell..
Unless they are extrapolations of positive and negative ideals for the here and now.
Our intelligence just makes us smart enough to make up such things.
Speak for yourself.
A dog isn't thinking about going to heaven or hell.
So you say.
The dog is good because I taught him to be good.
Or because he has hard-wired pack-animal social behaviour.
I am good because someone taught me to be good.
Could use an independent witness on this one.
Hitler was bad because someone taught him to think badly.
There may be something in this, but it does little to address the question of his ultimately being outbadded by other hyper-nationalists.
Terrorists are bad because they have a warped sense of good and bad.. due to bad
At the risk of over-generalising, albeit not as much as the above statement, I think terrorists might say something similar about those by whom they ~~are~~ consider themselves to be aggrieved.

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09/29/2009 06:24:25 AM · #465

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and simple ask that you have absolutely no pause for thought at the coincidence of such an event? Not even the smallest?

No. I equate it to the example of a woman who has just lost her job and prays to God to help her. She picks 6 numbers in the lottery, and wins $10m.

Now, if every person who ever needed financial help won the lottery, or if every church in Africa who was running out of money received generous email offers (in other words, events that massively contradict probability) - That would give me pause for thought.

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09/29/2009 07:00:44 AM · #466

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by dahkota:
The easiest way to think of it, beyond the material, is as a collective conscience.
Okay, you state that there is dualism, belief in two substances, and materialism, the believe in one substance. Well, how about if there is one substance with two different inclinations. Kind of like two sides of the same coin.

But there are already two sides (or states) in a materialist world. It's called matter and energy. Now if only the theist would stop confusing energy as something supernatural... :)

Did you know that energy has memory?

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

09/29/2009 08:31:17 AM · #467

Originally posted by raish:

Terrorists are bad because they have a warped sense of good and bad.. due to bad
At the risk of over-generalising, albeit not as much as the above statement, I think terrorists might say something similar about those by whom they ~~are~~ consider themselves to be aggrieved.

To the indigenous peoples of North & South America, Cortez & Columbus were both terrorists.

Who you are depends on who's viewing your perspective & intent.

david_c

09/29/2009 08:55:20 AM · #468

Originally posted by dahkota:

Did you know that energy has memory?

In what sense? You mean like memory foam has memory, or like that old lady from Titanic has memory? I think they're two different forms of "memory".

AJSullivan

09/29/2009 09:21:17 AM · #469

I think in the sense hes speaking it ouwld be more of the memory foam memory, as in an impression of that energy (and some would say that it is similar to titanic ladys as well, in the ability to recall that memory...GHOSTS/Residiual Hauntings)

AJSullivan

09/29/2009 09:23:40 AM · #470

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

To the indigenous peoples of North & South America, Cortez & Columbus were both terrorists.

Who you are depends on who's viewing your perspective & intent.

I dont think anyone who is moderately educated can deny this statement though.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/29/2009 10:32:47 AM · #471

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, the last half dozen posts clearly prove my point to Matthew. I'm not saying it's poor form by you guys, but I'm getting exactly what I expected. How would it be any different with any other miracle?

We all see what our worldview allows. I do. You do. Nobody is unbiased.

....

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and simple ask that you have absolutely no pause for thought at the coincidence of such an event? Not even the smallest?

This leads to an interesting question.

Modern psychology groups human brain activity into two groups:

System One (intuitive, quick and emotional) - gut thinking
System Two (calculating, slow and rational) - rational thinking

Gut thinking is demonstrably very bad at distinguishing causation from correlation and at making accurate statistical judgments. Rational thinking is required to do the mathematical calculation.

So... I have exactly the same amazement as you that someone might receive exactly what they need at exactly the right time, or when the person I am thinking about calls me. I joke with friends when my troubles always come in threes. I feel karma when I am unpleasant to someone and am then unlucky.

But in my rational mind I always know that my gut is making these connections in an interesting but unreliable way. Rationally, I can treat the connections made with an appropriate level of caution. I know that sometimes my brain lies - and I can compensate for it.

You don't appear to be using your rational mind to compensate for your gut thinking in relation to the statistical chances of "miraculous" coincidences.

A very interesting related book: Risk: The Science and Politics of Fear, by Dan Gardner

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09/29/2009 10:46:22 AM · #472

Originally posted by Matthew:

Modern psychology groups human brain activity into two groups:

System One (intuitive, quick and emotional) - gut thinking
System Two (calculating, slow and rational) - rational thinking

Also explains the varieties of Gambler's Fallacy - If I toss five heads in a row, what are the chances that the next toss will be tails?

ETA: And also explains the nonsense of 'Deal or No Deal' on the TV most afternoons....

Message edited by author 2009-09-29 10:47:25.

Mousie

09/29/2009 12:24:14 PM · #473

Re, the $500/$500:

Again, I'd be more surprised by weird coincidences NOT regularly happening than any coincidence happening.

Humans are really, really bad at hand-picking 'random' looking results for runs of coin tosses. We want them to look more 'random' than random really is by nature. When tasked to do so, a human typically won't add in long runs of the same result over and over, when true random coin flips will regularly include them. It's pretty easy for someone with this understanding to identify whether a sequence of numbers was actually randomly generated, or made to look random by a typical human.

We see even the slightest pattern in a series of results, say seven 'heads' coin tosses in a row, and we're predisposed, almost compelled, to assign a purpose to it. "That doesn't look random!"

So while I naturally notice and want to assign something other than coincidence to seemingly unusual events (like the weirdly coincidental '$500 value' detail of the story we're discussing) I know that I'm inherently predisposed to misreading probability and use my reason to eliminate my own desire to assign a guiding purpose to what is most likely just a random event that doesn't feel right because of my species' overacting aptitude for pattern-matching.

It's not that atheists just throw their hands up in the air and go "coincidence!" to discount 'supernatural' events they just can't seem to explain... it's that atheists (the smart ones anyway) know that the best and most likely answer IS coincidence, and we have the statistical and sociological research to back it up.

Message edited by author 2009-09-29 12:24:45.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

09/29/2009 01:24:26 PM · #474

2445 people wade through a river teeming with crocodiles and are promptly eaten. The 2446th person goes through praying with all his might and comes through unscathed. To that person, it's undoubtedly a miracle and his faith is reaffirmed. To a rational person, the crocodiles were either full or missed one, and many of the other people who prayed just as fervently aren't around to discuss the results.

Matthew