Was this talked about before? - DPChallenge Forums

07/30/2009 02:51:06 AM · #26

I think when you click on a thumbnail during voting, you should be redirected to another shot. That would be funny as hell.

07/30/2009 02:53:30 AM · #27

Originally posted by Ivo:

Certainly, and I agree. Unfortunately the voters do not.

This is where the disconnect is in my opinion. The challenges are "photo competitions". Are they not? This is why ribbons are awarded. Look at that simple aspect.

I too am puzzled why some of my shots have scored low before. Obviously, the majority of the voters did not share my surprise.;-) That's okay ...... it happens. I'd rather the attention be given to those photos which earned the affection of the voters. Good for them and let them bask in the recognition. It is a success and serves to encourage greatness. The present voting method does little more than distribute votes between those shots deserving attention and those which receive attention through obligation.

Ribbons. Front page. They DO get their recognition.

I simply fail to see how eliminating entries after one day will help them improve.

07/30/2009 02:55:43 AM · #28

Originally posted by Ivo:

I think when you click on a thumbnail during voting, you should be redirected to another shot. That would be funny as hell.

lol
It would be, but it would either encourage high numbers of views, or vengeful voting.
"Damnit I didn't want to vote for this crappy photo. Time for a 1"

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

07/30/2009 02:57:33 AM · #29

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Certainly, and I agree. Unfortunately the voters do not.

This is where the disconnect is in my opinion. The challenges are "photo competitions". Are they not? This is why ribbons are awarded. Look at that simple aspect.

I too am puzzled why some of my shots have scored low before. Obviously, the majority of the voters did not share my surprise.;-) That's okay ...... it happens. I'd rather the attention be given to those photos which earned the affection of the voters. Good for them and let them bask in the recognition. It is a success and serves to encourage greatness. The present voting method does little more than distribute votes between those shots deserving attention and those which receive attention through obligation.

Ribbons. Front page. They DO get their recognition.

I simply fail to see how eliminating entries after one day will help them improve.

I think his main thing is how terrible it is to vote on 500 consecutive images in the same challenge. Not all people vote on all the images, but for those that do, 500 can be kinda brutal.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

07/30/2009 03:03:28 AM · #30

Am I missing something? Ivo says we should pay more attention to photos that deserve our attention? What on earth does that mean? Would it help if we all submitted our photos with a self rating of 1 to 10 on the scale of deserving attention?

I think Ivo owes us all a big drink.

07/30/2009 03:08:55 AM · #31

Originally posted by BeeCee:

I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, how does giving people the equal opportunity to compete "reinforce mediocrity"? They're going to quit trying because everyone can see their sub-4 scores and they're satisfied with that, but if they were eliminated before having even a bit of chance to learn why it was worth sub-4 they'll be more likely to try harder? I suspect they'd be more likely to give up and quit the site.

Or is that what you're aiming for- a DPC populated with the photographic "elite"? Those already learned and skilled?

There are lots of photography competition sites out there, with various entry and voting methods. I chose DPC because I liked the fair and unweighted system here. It fits what I wanted, and if it's changed dramatically then my reasons for joining would be gone, and I probably would be too.

But if I had found no encouragement when I was new I would have left long ago. Yeah, that probably wouldn't have been any loss in my case, but how many others would have felt the same? Others who started out as I did and now regularly grace the front page? Others who joined knowing nearly nothing and now are valuable mentors here?

If we start eliminating most of the entrants what kind of site will be left? I suspect it won't be one I'd want to be part of...

This is puzzling and quite sad.

Why would we not want DPC populated by homegrown elite photographers? We actually might learn something from some masters instead of squeezing them out because they intimidate us.

As well, my reasons for joining are quite different than yours. Neither is right but the trend seems to favor your reason for some reason or another.

In the event "you" do become one of those "elite" photographers, will you please be so kind and leave so others can have a chance to win once in a while? Think about the possibility that you will evolve into nothing more than a stereotypical DPC formula photographer. Sorta like Librodo, Heida, Joey Lawrence, Pedro, etc etc. Oh yeah, have you seen them lately? ;-)

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

07/30/2009 03:09:53 AM · #32

Originally posted by tnun:

Yes you are missing something. What have you been drinking? I'll have some too. ;-)

MistyMucky

Nikon D700

07/30/2009 03:12:43 AM · #33

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

I think his main thing is how terrible it is to vote on 500 consecutive images in the same challenge. Not all people vote on all the images, but for those that do, 500 can be kinda brutal.

True. But I cannot see how the daily elimination system offers an advantage. Several users vote 100% the first day, irrespective on how many entries there are. These would be advantaged as mentioned. For the users who take their time, it would be quite difficult. I am convinced that the votes live by the comparison between different pictures (->lower FS scores). If you take out the worse pictures out every day, the later votes will probably become lower...

07/30/2009 03:16:09 AM · #34

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I think his main thing is how terrible it is to vote on 500 consecutive images in the same challenge. Not all people vote on all the images, but for those that do, 500 can be kinda brutal.

True. But I cannot see how the daily elimination system offers an advantage. Several users vote 100% the first day, irrespective on how many entries there are. These would be advantaged as mentioned. For the users who take their time, it would be quite difficult. I am convinced that the votes live by the comparison between different pictures (->lower FS scores). If you take out the worse pictures out every day, the later votes will probably become lower...

Well, it would give an advantage to those who dislike waterdrops or flowers or babies or whatever. They could vote them down and eliminate them the first day so we wouldn't have to worry about seeing them on the front page any more.

Canon EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM

07/30/2009 03:19:31 AM · #35

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I think his main thing is how terrible it is to vote on 500 consecutive images in the same challenge. Not all people vote on all the images, but for those that do, 500 can be kinda brutal.

True. But I cannot see how the daily elimination system offers an advantage. Several users vote 100% the first day, irrespective on how many entries there are. These would be advantaged as mentioned. For the users who take their time, it would be quite difficult. I am convinced that the votes live by the comparison between different pictures (->lower FS scores). If you take out the worse pictures out every day, the later votes will probably become lower...

Well, it would give an advantage to those who dislike waterdrops or flowers or babies or whatever. They could vote them down and eliminate them the first day so we wouldn't have to worry about seeing them on the front page any more.

That would possibly promote diversity. That would be a good thing.

Chinarosepetal

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III

07/30/2009 03:19:50 AM · #36

Originally posted by Ivo:

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

But maybe your 'outstanding image' is my yawnsville?

07/30/2009 03:23:20 AM · #37

Originally posted by Chinarosepetal:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

But maybe your 'outstanding image' is my yawnsville?

Maybe and maybe not. I am referring to the challenges only and not the galleries. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting it applies to all challenges. It could be an experiment and nothing more.

We may be surprised at what may surface when patterns are broken.

07/30/2009 03:23:50 AM · #38

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by BeeCee:
I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, how does giving people the equal opportunity to compete "reinforce mediocrity"? They're going to quit trying because everyone can see their sub-4 scores and they're satisfied with that, but if they were eliminated before having even a bit of chance to learn why it was worth sub-4 they'll be more likely to try harder? I suspect they'd be more likely to give up and quit the site.

Or is that what you're aiming for- a DPC populated with the photographic "elite"? Those already learned and skilled?

There are lots of photography competition sites out there, with various entry and voting methods. I chose DPC because I liked the fair and unweighted system here. It fits what I wanted, and if it's changed dramatically then my reasons for joining would be gone, and I probably would be too.

But if I had found no encouragement when I was new I would have left long ago. Yeah, that probably wouldn't have been any loss in my case, but how many others would have felt the same? Others who started out as I did and now regularly grace the front page? Others who joined knowing nearly nothing and now are valuable mentors here?

If we start eliminating most of the entrants what kind of site will be left? I suspect it won't be one I'd want to be part of...

This is puzzling and quite sad.

Why would we not want DPC populated by homegrown elite photographers? We actually might learn something from some masters instead of squeezing them out because they intimidate us.

As well, my reasons for joining are quite different than yours. Neither is right but the trend seems to favor your reason for some reason or another.

In the event "you" do become one of those "elite" photographers, will you please be so kind and leave so others can have a chance to win once in a while? Think about the possibility that you will evolve into nothing more than a stereotypical DPC formula photographer. Sorta like Librodo, Heida, Joey Lawrence, Pedro, etc etc. Oh yeah, have you seen them lately? ;-)

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

You're one of the few who came into this site with the knowledge and ability to ribbon. Have a look at the early entries of the ones on this week's front page and you'll see some much different beginnings. I don't get the impression that you want "homegrown" elite, as you don't seem interested in giving beginners a chance to grow. If they're not already good they're eliminated first day.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, maybe my brain's fried by the 90F heat in my computer room, but read it that you don't want to be bothered with seeing anything but what you consider the very best.

Canon EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM

07/30/2009 03:29:54 AM · #39

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Wow are you way off base. I picked up my first decent digital camera in March 2004 with encouragement of

Pedro. Prior to that, I had taken 38 pictures......maybe. I am one of the "homegrown" products of this site.

This is damn funny!!

Chinarosepetal

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III

07/30/2009 03:41:26 AM · #40

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by Chinarosepetal:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

But maybe your 'outstanding image' is my yawnsville?

Maybe and maybe not. I am referring to the challenges only and not the galleries. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting it applies to all challenges. It could be an experiment and nothing more.

We may be surprised at what may surface when patterns are broken.

I was talking about challenges too. The images don't need to 'surface', many people take the time to seek out images that deserve more recognition than their placing in the voting gave them. Look at the posthumous ribbon thread.

07/30/2009 03:48:03 AM · #41

Originally posted by Chinarosepetal:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by Chinarosepetal:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Its easy to mix in with the pack and much harder to stand out. The photography which interests me is exhibited by the outstanding "photographers" on this site. Not the masters of forum banter but the few who take consistently outstanding images.

But maybe your 'outstanding image' is my yawnsville?

Maybe and maybe not. I am referring to the challenges only and not the galleries. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting it applies to all challenges. It could be an experiment and nothing more.

We may be surprised at what may surface when patterns are broken.

I was talking about challenges too. The images don't need to 'surface', many people take the time to seek out images that deserve more recognition than their placing in the voting gave them. Look at the posthumous ribbon thread.

Though I too like the off beat flavor of the posthumous selections, they do not reflect the sentiment of the majority of voters in the challenges. I'd consider those photos as fringe photos .....FOR THIS SITE.

The challenges are popularity contests for a certain image and/or style. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is not implied that one style is better than another. It is simply more popular. That aspect is deserving of greater recognition IMO.

07/30/2009 03:53:15 AM · #42

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by BeeCee:
You're one of the few who came into this site with the knowledge and ability to ribbon. Have a look at the early entries of the ones on this week's front page and you'll see some much different beginnings. I don't get the impression that you want "homegrown" elite, as you don't seem interested in giving beginners a chance to grow. If they're not already good they're eliminated first day.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, maybe my brain's fried by the 90F heat in my computer room, but read it that you don't want to be bothered with seeing anything but what you consider the very best.

Wow are you way off base. I picked up my first decent digital camera in March 2004 with encouragement of Pedro. Prior to that, I had taken 38 pictures......maybe. I am one of the "homegrown" products of this site.

This is damn funny!!

Ahh, so you were just astute enough to hit on the DPC formula quickly.

So what of those who want to expand themselves beyond the formula?

eta; never mind, you answered that while I was posting.

Message edited by author 2009-07-30 03:53:59.

07/30/2009 03:53:26 AM · #43

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I think his main thing is how terrible it is to vote on 500 consecutive images in the same challenge. Not all people vote on all the images, but for those that do, 500 can be kinda brutal.

True. But I cannot see how the daily elimination system offers an advantage. Several users vote 100% the first day, irrespective on how many entries there are. These would be advantaged as mentioned. For the users who take their time, it would be quite difficult. I am convinced that the votes live by the comparison between different pictures (->lower FS scores). If you take out the worse pictures out every day, the later votes will probably become lower...

Well, it would give an advantage to those who dislike waterdrops or flowers or babies or whatever. They could vote them down and eliminate them the first day so we wouldn't have to worry about seeing them on the front page any more.

That would possibly promote diversity. That would be a good thing.

But this purported diversity is chosen by what amounts to the early vote mafia. Then everybody wants to vote early on, and nobody can vote at the end to finish it, and the outcome is the same anyway, since everybody voted on the same images, just right at first in an attempt at a power grab.
You've already stated that it's a competition and yet now you decry that it's a popularity contest? You are alternately saying you want to strengthen the voice of the site and mute it. Which is it?

07/30/2009 03:56:01 AM · #44

Originally posted by Ivo:

You say you like the off beat, yet you're suggesting they be immediately eliminated?

07/30/2009 04:02:44 AM · #45

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

lol, this is not that complicated of a concept. Again, I agree there is the issue of potentially having the vote skewed by the early voting Nazis but nobody knows whether that is even an issue. Popularity contest is exactly what it is, think about it as that is self explanatory.My verbage does not change that truth.

I am not making a broad sweeping statement of "changing the voice of the site" at all, I'm saying pare down the least favorable in an orderly manner and allow the effort to remain focused on what the voters have determined to be the "cream".

I'm sorry if my big idea frightened everyone. ;-)

07/30/2009 04:06:05 AM · #46

The other way to look at it is that it actually encourages one standpoint, because people will see what images are culled and decided "well, I guess they were rubbish" and the whole thing just strengthens its own little image of perfection.
How is this different from the popularity contest we currently have?
Your idea didn't frighten me, but it's late at night and I'm bored and need a reason to not read about water allocation. So thank you :)

07/30/2009 04:12:24 AM · #47

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Though I too like the off beat flavor of the posthumous selections, they do not reflect the sentiment of the majority of voters in the challenges. I'd consider those photos as fringe photos .....FOR THIS SITE.

The challenges are popularity contests for a certain image and/or style. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is not implied that one style is better than another. It is simply more popular. That aspect is deserving of greater recognition IMO.

You say you like the off beat, yet you're suggesting they be immediately eliminated?

If the voters will not discern between crap and offbeat, then the offbeat image was crap according to the popular vote. Its that simple. Within the context of THAT challenge. Posthumous can still sift through the images after the fact and wade through the sorting if he desires.

Regarding my hitting the DPC formula so quickly, that comment is funny in itself. Heaven forbid you say some people may think my photography is quite good.

Are you striving for the formula or are you trying to get good? I am trying for the latter. Unfortunately you have categorized my success as formulaic whereas I have busted my chops to get better.

Interesting perspective. Hmmmm

Oh well, at the end of the day, who cares right?

07/30/2009 04:22:12 AM · #48

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by Ivo:

Though I too like the off beat flavor of the posthumous selections, they do not reflect the sentiment of the majority of voters in the challenges. I'd consider those photos as fringe photos .....FOR THIS SITE.

The challenges are popularity contests for a certain image and/or style. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is not implied that one style is better than another. It is simply more popular. That aspect is deserving of greater recognition IMO.

You say you like the off beat, yet you're suggesting they be immediately eliminated?

If the voters will not discern between crap and offbeat, then the offbeat image was crap according to the popular vote. Its that simple. Within the context of THAT challenge. Posthumous can still sift through the images after the fact and wade through the sorting if he desires.

Regarding my hitting the DPC formula so quickly, that comment is funny in itself. Heaven forbid you say some people may think my photography is quite good.

Are you striving for the formula or are you trying to get good? I am trying for the latter. Unfortunately you have categorized my success as formulaic whereas I have busted my chops to get better.

Interesting perspective. Hmmmm

Oh well, at the end of the day, who cares right?

Sorry, was simply looking at the fact that you hit the top 10th percentile on half of your first 4 entries. I was just comparing that with the beginnings of others of the current front page. Obviously some people do think your photography is quite good. I didn't look at the photos themselves before I posted, just at the stats. I'm sure they're wonderful :)

No, I'm not striving for the formula. But it appears that the formula is what is important to you, since you feel that only the DPC-formulaic photographers should get the attention.

07/30/2009 04:28:02 AM · #49

Originally posted by BeeCee:

You make many assumptions of what is important to me. You have yet to identify one thing that is correct. I'm sorry to have angered you with my idea.

As you mentioned, you glanced at my stats before you posted.

I generally look at the photos. Try that approach, it helped me improve.