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08/19/2009 03:01:42 PM · #576 |
A question from a Canuck:
are your hospitals run by public services or private? |
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08/19/2009 03:03:07 PM · #577 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I'll ask again since it has not been answered. Why don't we reform? Why not remove the bans on crossing state lines to get insurance? Why not allow Americans to purchase perscription meds outside the US? Why is the govt option the only way? |
Because none of that will lead to socialized medicine, and none of those ideas were in the mighty o's campaign promises.
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08/19/2009 03:04:29 PM · #578 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
A question from a Canuck:
are your hospitals run by public services or private? |
Both. The public hospitals tend to be shit holes and the private ones nice with a higher standard of care. With that in mind, why would I want any more government involvement in the hospital system?
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08/19/2009 03:12:06 PM · #579 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by merchillio:
A question from a Canuck:
are your hospitals run by public services or private? |
Both. The public hospitals tend to be shit holes and the private ones nice with a higher standard of care. With that in mind, why would I want any more government involvement in the hospital system? |
I understand, but the problem with private hospital would probably be that they mostly want to make profit. Maybe in a public run system, even the private insurances would be cheaper....
But then you'd have to solve the shithole problem. Don't you have any competent people in all your politicians?
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08/19/2009 04:09:24 PM · #580 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
Don't you have any competent people in all your politicians? |
Apparently NONE.
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08/19/2009 04:18:50 PM · #581 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by merchillio:
Don't you have any competent people in all your politicians? |
Apparently NONE. |
Ok, I already have a very bad opinion of US politicians... but please! leave a glimmer of hope....
Do your state elections also have the bi-party system? does a Independant have a chance of being elected. At least one of them should be able to run a public system efficiently.... |
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08/19/2009 05:10:40 PM · #582 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
At least one of them should be able to run a public system efficiently.... |
I think Eric's creed says that no public system can ever be efficient.
A little point, which may not be a point, but you decide...
In Sweden, whose health care is joint number one in the world along with the rest of Scandinavia, health care is publicly administrated.
A while ago, but within my lifetime (maybe it was in connection with the oil crisis of 1970 or thereabouts) the Swedish government saw a need to raise taxes and decided to ask the electorate about it first. There was a referendum and the people of Sweden voted to pay more tax.
To put it simply (and simplistics is what the face of politics seems to be these days): if you think that the money you pay in tax is no longer yours, you have a bad democracy. |
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08/19/2009 05:45:19 PM · #583 |
This is a great story and something that happens here in the UK many thousands of times a day.. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the NHS isn`t perfect - it`s incredibly expensive to run, but it is there for us 24/7 no matter who you are or what you earn.
However, the biggest problem is that it is run by the government, and comes with all the usual bureaucracy, middle management and spongers. I worked for the NHS for quite a while and saw absolutely colossal wastes of taxpayers money on an almost daily basis, unforntunately I don't think that will ever be stamped out.
So yes, from a healthcare point of view it is an incredible service with some incredible people working on the frontline, however, it is also a bottomless pit of expense with some people making huge amounts of money, sadly these people rarely deserve it.
Every cloud eh? |
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08/19/2009 06:05:36 PM · #584 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I guess the purpose of civilization is to allow asshole liberals to go into my pocket and give money away to social parasites. The sure, why not was a nonsense response to a canadian trying to get into an argument that has no bearing on her. It was a response made in gist to the stupid comments and summations that preceded. I apologize for not drawing you guys a picture to make that a little more clear earlier. Even still, I have what I have earned. If you feel you need more, get off your ass and make it happen.
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I am sorry Eric, but this makes you sound a really awful person. You say if you want more go out and make it happen - but you know, some people are just not destined to be anything other than what they are - not everyone is of the same academic ability as the next person - just because a woman working as a waitress earning next to minimum wage isn't contributing as much financially to society as you are, does not make her any less eligible to decent healthcare - she may not be able to do anything else as maybe she isn't clever enough - but she IS working, she is trying to contribute something although she is probably just more concerned with making enough to pay rent and survive. Maybe it just isn't in her genetic make-up to go out and `make it happen` due to lack of education or whatever, maybe she even tried hard at school but just wasn't academic enough to be any good.
However, I agree there are some out there who just don`t want to work, never have, never will - trust me, we have our fair share of them in this country - I see them in the playground at my daughters school when I drop her off, some of them too lazy to even get out of their pyjamas (yes, they will take their kids to school whilst wearing pyjamas), then go home, sit on their fat arses watching Jeremy Kyle (like Jerry Springer, but with even less class) smoking their fags and moaning about how the world owes them everything. Oh yes, they can afford cigarettes whilst their kids are running around at school in secondhand clothes (cigarettes in this country cost around $9.60 for a packet of twenty I believe). I also have some in my family that are `playing the system` - it pisses me off no end believe me - I work my bollocks off to provide a decent standard of living for my family - but what they do is all legal and above board in its own way. Still, I think I am moving away from the original topic here.
Eric, I know you are a pretty decent bloke, I REALLY admire the way you are sticking to your guns over this issue, but I think your anger is clouding your judgement in some ways.. best of luck to you mate.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 18:05:58. |
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08/19/2009 07:46:16 PM · #585 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
We're 8 years beyond 9/11 right now. Have there been no other jobs that Alonzo could have worked since then? Or have there been no other jobs at over-priced restaurants that would pay a hefty salary that Alonzo would accept? It is easy to play the victim, but its much more logical to take responsibility for your life and find a way to make things work. |
Alonzo's dead.
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08/19/2009 08:09:38 PM · #586 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
...have there been no other jobs at over-priced restaurants that would pay a hefty salary that Alonzo would accept? |
Do you REALLY believe that restaurants, overpriced or not, pay "hefty salaries" to their employees? SOME of the high-end chefs make a ton of money, but it's mostly low-end-of-the-economic-scale work.
R. |
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08/19/2009 08:17:31 PM · #587 |
Right now, the official unemployement rate -- which doesn't count those who've been unemployed over a certain length of time or "deadbeats" -- is close to 10%. That means that one of of ten Americans is actively seeking and willing to work, and can't find a job which will let them rise out of poverty. What is your answer for those who are able and willing to work but find no place to hire them -- just let them starve because "those are the breaks?"
Apparently you don't believe in the official motto of the US: e pluribus unum ... |
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08/19/2009 08:32:22 PM · #588 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
...have there been no other jobs at over-priced restaurants that would pay a hefty salary that Alonzo would accept? |
Do you REALLY believe that restaurants, overpriced or not, pay "hefty salaries" to their employees? SOME of the high-end chefs make a ton of money, but it's mostly low-end-of-the-economic-scale work.
R. |
No, I don't think they pay hefty salaries. However, I'd rather be making 15-20% off of a $400 check rather than a $60 check. I have several friends that work in various restaurants in the Atlanta area. The guys and gals that work in the high end spots make a comfortable living, even on the slow nights. |
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08/19/2009 08:33:25 PM · #589 |
There are many countries that have Government run health care:
Canada
Sweden
Netherlands
France
etc.
None of these countries is communist, or socialist. In fact, in Canada, we have a Conservative Prime Minister, equivalent to the Republicans in the USA.
Talk that Government health care = Communism or Socialism is fear mongering, and innaccurate. |
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08/19/2009 08:57:24 PM · #590 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Right now, the official unemployement rate -- which doesn't count those who've been unemployed over a certain length of time or "deadbeats" -- is close to 10%. That means that one of of ten Americans is actively seeking and willing to work, and can't find a job which will let them rise out of poverty. What is your answer for those who are able and willing to work but find no place to hire them -- just let them starve because "those are the breaks?"
Apparently you don't believe in the official motto of the US: e pluribus unum ... |
Actually, In God we Trust is the 'official' motto of the United States. But, if you wanna run with e pluribus unum, we can do that, too. I would love to believe that we could all pull together and make one. We both know that isn't possible because there is a certain amount of the population that refuses to pull their weight or contribute their part.
As far as unemployment, how can that be? How can we still be bleeding 400,000 jobs per month when o promised that, by January 2011, he would create 2.5 MILLION jobs. Was that AFTER we lose millions upon millions, or was that a promise that there would be 2.5 million more working than at the time of the promise. Unemployment sucks, no doubt, but there is work available. My brother was laid off from a high-paying factory supervisor job. He was jobless for about 7 weeks and found work installing cable service for a local contractor. It doesn't pay nearly as much, but it provides money for him and his family to live, as well as access to insurance for his family of 5. Its also a shitload of work. He works 14+ hours, 6-7 day seach week, but he manages to make the ends meet. Your unemployment argument should be rephrased to 'there are no jobs that I am willing to work' instead of no jobs. Hell, even back as a teenager working at McDonald's I had the option for renting health care insurance through them. Options are there, but it may take a change in lifestyle. Sure, there is not a job for every person right now, but there sure are a lot of lower paying jobs out there. |
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08/19/2009 09:01:45 PM · #591 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
My brother was laid off from a high-paying factory supervisor job. He was jobless for about 7 weeks and found work installing cable service for a local contractor. It doesn't pay nearly as much, but it provides money for him and his family to live, as well as access to insurance for his family of 5. Its also a shitload of work. He works 14+ hours, 6-7 day seach week, but he manages to make the ends meet. |
Can your brother afford health insurance in the state he is in? What about during the 7 weeks?
What if his job didnt provide insurance for him, but it was the only job he could get?
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:02:31. |
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08/19/2009 09:04:59 PM · #592 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
There are many countries that have Government run health care:
Canada
Sweden
Netherlands
France
etc.
None of these countries is communist, or socialist. In fact, in Canada, we have a Conservative Prime Minister, equivalent to the Republicans in the USA.
Talk that Government health care = Communism or Socialism is fear mongering, and innaccurate. |
you missed one country that has Government run health care - United States.
Indian Health Services - Now google the care they get.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:05:16. |
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08/19/2009 09:05:33 PM · #593 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Actually, In God we Trust is the 'official' motto of the United States. |
And ironically enough the result of fear mongering back in the 1950's... Some things never change.
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08/19/2009 09:06:04 PM · #594 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Talk that Government health care = Communism or Socialism is fear mongering, and innaccurate. |
That is not the argument, at least from my standpoint. My argument is that the government is not capable of running anything efficiently. They have proven that with every opportunity they have taken. O was trying to push a model similar to the Massachusetts plan, that, by most accounts, has been a massive failure and an endless pit to dump taxpayer money while worsening the access to actual health care. Sure, many are now insured, but they still can't get care. Our health care system absolutely needs some work, but it needs tweaking in ways that are financially responsible and fiscally sustainable. O's stupid ass plan is neither, nor does it address access to care. It only provides access to insurance.
Now, speaking of fear mongering...a president screaming that without passing his plan as quickly as we can we would certainly face immediate financial ruin seems to fit the label more than a worry that he is leading us into socialism. And, the gist of it all is, the people don't want this ridiculous plan. It is a dying bill and will certainly become yet another broken o promise. Imagine that. |
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08/19/2009 09:07:54 PM · #595 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Actually, In God we Trust is the 'official' motto of the United States. |
And ironically enough the result of fear mongering back in the 1950's... Some things never change. |
But nothing close to o's 'the sky will fall if we don't pass this plan by august' fear mongering. Right? |
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08/19/2009 09:10:38 PM · #596 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Apparently you don't believe in the official motto of the US: e pluribus unum ... |
Actually, In God we Trust is the 'official' motto of the United States. |
The original motto of these United States was, indeed, "E pluribus unum". In the 1860's, and against considerable opposition, the motto "In God is our trust" was adopted by the Congress, the words having been taken from Francis Scott Key's verses; later this was shortened to "In God we trust".
R. |
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08/19/2009 09:14:28 PM · #597 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
There are many countries that have Government run health care:
Canada
Sweden
Netherlands
France
etc.
None of these countries is communist, or socialist. In fact, in Canada, we have a Conservative Prime Minister, equivalent to the Republicans in the USA.
Talk that Government health care = Communism or Socialism is fear mongering, and innaccurate. |
Again, many Americans will have none of it. No matter what myths are disproved or misunderstandings are legitimately cleared up...IT'S Socialism...Communism and some are even going as far as Fascism.
Eric-I'll go out on a limb here and guess you are a lifelong Republican voter...based on your clear hatred of liberals...??? AND that you voted for Bush not once but TWICE? And you voted for McCain, as well?
You probably have a lot of stock in Republican Philosophy and since it hasn't been working, the country is falling apart (I know...I know, it's Obama/Barney Frank/Clintons fault) and has been for many, many years, two wars etc.. Something you've been staunchly behind may have been the cause or root to much of what's been happening. Now, if that's the case it's possible you've been backing the wrong horse for quite some time and that's gotta be a tough pill to swallow. I may have you wrong but I have a side theory that people have a mega big problem admitting to a lifetime of faulty logic and believing in the wrong thing so, they fight tooth and nail not to have to utter those lonely words...
"I was wrong"
Anyway, Alonzo's dead as I mentioned. He had a nice Union job with benefits that paid maybe $14-15/hr not much but he could no longer afford to pay for benefits struggling to find solid work 2 years after 9/11. The city was devastated and didn't really come around for about a year and a half. He of course found work but nothing that came with coverage. His wife got very ill around 2002 and it cost a few hundred thousand dollars. He of course went broke quickly and couldn't get coverage due to her pre-existing condition and he was no spring chicken himself. Sadly, he died a few years later.
I wouldn't even dare to compare O's rush to pass some reform to the fear mongering, name calling, lies, yelling, racially slanted crap that's become a blight on our country. I mean, is he doing it for his own self interest...profit....fun? Let's get some perspective. You may not agree with the policy, fine, BUT to vilify a man that's trying to insure that every man, woman and child has healthcare is warped. If anything it's a generous, selfless, initiative that's rooted in good not evil.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:24:22. |
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08/19/2009 09:18:59 PM · #598 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Talk that Government health care = Communism or Socialism is fear mongering, and innaccurate. |
That is not the argument, at least from my standpoint. My argument is that the government is not capable of running anything efficiently. They have proven that with every opportunity they have taken. O was trying to push a model similar to the Massachusetts plan, that, by most accounts, has been a massive failure and an endless pit to dump taxpayer money while worsening the access to actual health care. Sure, many are now insured, but they still can't get care. Our health care system absolutely needs some work, but it needs tweaking in ways that are financially responsible and fiscally sustainable. O's stupid ass plan is neither, nor does it address access to care. It only provides access to insurance.
Now, speaking of fear mongering...a president screaming that without passing his plan as quickly as we can we would certainly face immediate financial ruin seems to fit the label more than a worry that he is leading us into socialism. And, the gist of it all is, the people don't want this ridiculous plan. It is a dying bill and will certainly become yet another broken o promise. Imagine that. |
Over the past 8 years under Bush, I would agree, very little was run efficiently. The US, unfortunately, went from a surplus, to a trillion dollar plus deficit.
Obama has been in office for a whopping 6 months, I think it might be too early to determine if he cannot run the show.
I find that the arguments are partisan, and not based upon fact. You keep refering to O as stupid, liberal, socialist, etc. etc.
Plus, I often find that people use the Canadian example as a reason not to get health care, but when you ask, the majority of Canadians wouldnt have it any other way. Give it a shot, its really not that bad, and your fellow citizens (the 50million uninsured that you seem to have little respect or empathy for), will be healthier because of it. |
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08/19/2009 09:50:12 PM · #599 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Plus, I often find that people use the Canadian example as a reason not to get health care, but when you ask, the majority of Canadians wouldnt have it any other way. Give it a shot, its really not that bad, and your fellow citizens (the 50million uninsured that you seem to have little respect or empathy for), will be healthier because of it. |
But we're the model of perfection. If we deviate that would make us flip floppers...weaklings, communists. Our brand of capitalism is the best and cannot evolve nor should it because that would put a few people out.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:51:00. |
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08/19/2009 09:50:34 PM · #600 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Eric-I'll go out on a limb here and guess you are a lifelong Republican voter...based on your clear hatred of liberals...??? AND that you voted for Bush not once but TWICE? And you voted for McCain, as well? |
Well, since you asked, I have never won a presidential election. In 1992, I voted for Bush as I was near the end of my time buying into Christianity, and Clinton seemed like a real tool. I actually like Perot's ideas and conservative fundamentals, but hopping in and hopping out on what seemed like a weekly basis led me to believe he would be less than ideal for the country. Clinton did all he could to prove he was a tool during his first term, so I voted for Dole in 1996. I know, I know, but it turns out he would have lived through it after all. Through Clinton's second term, I really grew to appreciate his environmental policies, thus, for some odd reason, I voted for Mr. Internet himself in 2000. Instead, we got Bush and Dick, which ran a perpetual circus there at the white house during their first term. Again, with environmental concerns in mind, and the fact that W was an idiot, I voted for the lesser of two evils in my mind, John Kerry. I liked his ideas for getting out of Iraq, as well as his concerns for environmental policies. Then, throughout W's second term, it became more and more obvious to me that liberals were about to do everything they could to give away the country and make our borders even less secure. With that in mind, I voted for the McCain/Palin team. Again, the lesser of two evils, but this time the evil on the republican side seemed much, much lesser. Obama's promises were asinine from the beginning, but the liberals bought it all hook, line, and sinker. Add to that the unprecedented push to get minority voters to the poll simply because a candidate was half-black, and you have a recipe for an absolute disaster. Fortunately, the American people have, at least for the time being, halted the largest portion of this potential disaster.
My alliances lie with no political party, and no lines divide what is important to me. Right now, economics are at the top of the priority list. I don't believe in anything that o is pushing right now. Cash for clunkers, a government option for health care, closing gitmo, ridiculous taxes on tobacco and alcohol, ridiculous energy taxes, and the list goes on and on. With all this in mind, my votes will hang with the republicans for the time being. Until the economy can stabilize and someone can come up with some sustainable plans for health care, welfare, social security, or whatever, my votes will stay on the fiscally conservative side. Sure, it means giving a little with environmental polices, but I have to balance my priorities.
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Anyway, Alonzo's dead as I mentioned. He had a nice Union job with benefits that paid maybe $14-15/hr not much but he could no longer afford to pay for benefits struggling to find solid work 2 years after 9/11. The city was devastated and didn't really come around for about a year and a half. He of course found work but nothing that came with coverage. His wife got very ill around 2002 and it cost a few hundred thousand dollars. He of course went broke quickly and couldn't get coverage due to her pre-existing condition and he was no spring chicken himself. Sadly, he died a few years later. |
My apologies for my insensitivity to a friend lost. I do understand that NYC was in shambles for quite some time after 9/11, and that time period is a time I will never forget. With that said though, I would imagine that there were options. I wasn't there at the time, so I don't feel like I can or should assume anything even beyond that. Even still, simply having a government option to give to them wouldn't have solved the problem. The program o has pushed is not the right program for our country. That is where my line stands right now. It will hurt all of us as taxpayers, it will hurt my field as a health care provider, it will hurt all of our overall access to health care, it will lose more jobs, both in the health care arena, but also in the insurance arena, and, ultimately, it will fail and hurt the country. There are many, many ideas out there, but both sides have drawn hard lines in the sand, and no one will work with each other on the problem. Figure out how to fix that without simply pointing fingers at the other side and then we can make some progress. Until then, I promise to keep screaming that obamacare is idiotic and unreasonable. |
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