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08/05/2009 11:06:49 PM · #351 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are more bad than good......that's how stereotypes happen, by the way......it's an EARNED thing. |
I could touch this, but I won't, except to say, "uh, no." |
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08/05/2009 11:18:32 PM · #352 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
I'm Conservative and I don't get paid enough (or should I say I don't get to keep enough of my money) to have credibility. :) |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Just out of curiosity, have you ever had to pay your healthcare completely out of pocket? |
Originally posted by AJHopp:
Have you ever had to pay for yours and everyone else's health care completely out of pocket? Well, get ready! :) |
So......I'm going to assume by your refusal to answer the question that the answer is no, you haven't ever had to.......it seemed also patently apparent by your complete ignorance of what's available in the way of options that you really don't know much about health insurance at all.
And since it doesn't seem that you're paying much for your own insurance anyway, it seems like you just want to continue whatever free ride you're getting now.
So what's your answer? You are doing a lot of squawking and griping about Obama.....what's your solution? |
I've tried to be as polite as possible, but it's really none of your business whether I've gone without insurance or not. How in the hell do you come to the assumption that I don't pay much for insurance and get a free ride? Far from it, you moron. I pay my share and then some, and I'm happy with my plan. Oh my gawwwdddd - what a friggin' crime!
Yes, I'm doing a lot of squawking and griping about Obama. You had your fun with Bush. It's my turn now. And I will continue to do so as much as I please while it's still a free country.
My solution? All you idiots who want government run, socialized health care can have it and opt into it. Leave the rest of us alone!
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 23:22:45. |
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08/05/2009 11:37:46 PM · #353 |
Originally posted by AJHopp:
My solution? All you idiots who want government run, socialized health care can have it and opt into it. Leave the rest of us alone! |
Which is exactly Mr. Obama's proposal. Thank you for your support. |
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08/05/2009 11:53:55 PM · #354 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
My solution? All you idiots who want government run, socialized health care can have it and opt into it. Leave the rest of us alone! |
Which is exactly Mr. Obama's proposal. Thank you for your support. |
I forgot to add that you need to travel out of the country for it. :) I'm sure Obama won't mind sharing his jet. Hell, he might even share a beer with ya. Don't let the door hit you in the arse. Who knows how much that will cost you!
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 23:56:54. |
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08/06/2009 12:21:53 AM · #355 |
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 00:28:25. |
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08/06/2009 01:17:42 AM · #356 |
Originally posted by AJHopp:
I'm Conservative and I don't get paid enough (or should I say I don't get to keep enough of my money) to have credibility. :) Oh and Judith - type "republican ideas on health care" using whatever search engine you desire if you're really interested in finding out. Somehow, I doubt you are... |
Okay, here are the results of that search. I've only browsed through the first two pages. Good luck finding any ideas on health care from the republicans in the lot of them.
This video on page 2 sums it up nicely. |
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08/06/2009 05:45:31 AM · #357 |
Originally posted by AJHopp:
I've tried to be as polite as possible, but it's really none of your business whether I've gone without insurance or not. How in the hell do you come to the assumption that I don't pay much for insurance and get a free ride? Far from it, you moron. I pay my share and then some, and I'm happy with my plan. Oh my gawwwdddd - what a friggin' crime! |
You just go ahead and continue to live in your own clueless little world.
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 07:23:32.
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08/06/2009 07:28:56 AM · #358 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are more bad than good......that's how stereotypes happen, by the way......it's an EARNED thing. |
Originally posted by karmat:
I could touch this, but I won't, except to say, "uh, no." |
Which part are you "noing" about?
The behavior of the old blood, monied set, or how you arise at strereotypes?
I think you'll find that until the generation of my parents dies off, it's classic behavior to be elitist, bigoted, and pretty much have a head-in-the-sand attitude about how the world around them not only needs to change, but *is* changing around them.
If my dad could, he'd disown me all over again for voting for Barack Obama.
He doesn't feel "their kind" has any place in the House.......except perhaps as a doorman.
It's really sad.......and he's no different than the parents of the kids I grew up with that populated the country club, et al........where to this day, it's a complete WASP environ.....I don't have a clue how they get away with it.
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08/06/2009 07:35:21 AM · #359 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are more bad than good......that's how stereotypes happen, by the way......it's an EARNED thing. |
Originally posted by karmat:
I could touch this, but I won't, except to say, "uh, no." |
Which part are you "noing" about?
The behavior of the old blood, monied set, or how you arise at strereotypes?
I think you'll find that until the generation of my parents dies off, it's classic behavior to be elitist, bigoted, and pretty much have a head-in-the-sand attitude about how the world around them not only needs to change, but *is* changing around them.
If my dad could, he'd disown me all over again for voting for Barack Obama.
He doesn't feel "their kind" has any place in the House.......except perhaps as a doorman.
It's really sad.......and he's no different than the parents of the kids I grew up with that populated the country club, et al........where to this day, it's a complete WASP environ.....I don't have a clue how they get away with it. |
Can we say that all stereotypes are earned, or just the ones that you agree or have experience with? |
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08/06/2009 08:05:33 AM · #360 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Can we say that all stereotypes are earned, or just the ones that you agree or have experience with? |
My point is that they are GENERALLY arrived at from elements of truth.....I'm not saying that they are true across the board, just that how else are they formed and perpetuated?
I certainly don't agree with them, or how else would I have broken from the trend of my own family?
When I got out into the real world and found out that there are black people and Jews that are.....GASP!....real human beings, too, imagine my surprise!
From dictionary.com:
Sociology: a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.
Now, special meaning, and what the group is will be wide and varied, won't it?
I'm sure that we all have our own stereotypes, like say......social parasites?......8>)
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 08:09:31.
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08/06/2009 08:23:57 AM · #361 |
Scott - The new proposed bill seems quite clear and easy to read! ;-)
If this bill gets pushed too fast we're just trading one beaurocratic nightmare for another.
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
My dad has three different insurance coverages (MediCare, his insurance from being a teacher for years, and through the Screen Actors Guild, from my mom). He's lately been having some mental deterioration and has been suffering a lot of falls, and will likely need some kind of supervised care soon ... none of those three insurance policies will cover any long-term care ....:-( |
 GeneralE, I feel bad about that and it is true on most insurance; they don't cover long-term care unless one purchase it separately from their medical insurance. And the bill set fourth by the government is the same from what I have read so far or at least very vague on long-term care. See pages 424-430 of the current bill being considered form HR3200)
5 SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
6 (a) MEDICARE.—
7 (1) IN GENERAL.—Section 1861 of the Social
8 Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended—
9 (A) in subsection (s)(2)—
10 (i) by striking ‘‘and’’ at the end of
11 subparagraph (DD);
12 (ii) by adding ‘‘and’’ at the end of
13 subparagraph (EE); and
14 (iii) by adding at the end the fol15
lowing new subparagraph:
16 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
17 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));̢̢۪۪; and
18 (B) by adding at the end the following new
19 subsection:
20 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
21 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
22 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con23
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de24
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
25 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
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425
â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
2 consultation shall include the following:
3 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad4
vance care planning, including key questions and
5 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo6
ple to talk to.
7 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad8
vance directives, including living wills and durable
9 powers of attorney, and their uses.
10 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
11 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
12 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
13 of national and State-specific resources to assist con14
sumers and their families with advance care plan15
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad16
vance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal
17 service organizations (including those funded
18 through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
19 ‘‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the
20 continuum of end-of-life services and supports avail21
able, including palliative care and hospice, and bene22
fits for such services and supports that are available
23 under this title.
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426
â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
2 orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
3 orders, which shall include—
4 ‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
5 such an order is beneficial to the individual and
6 the individual̢۪s family and the reasons why
7 such an order should be updated periodically as
8 the health of the individual changes;
9 ‘‘(II) the information needed for an indi10
vidual or legal surrogate to make informed deci11
sions regarding the completion of such an
12 order; and
13 ‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
14 an individual may use to determine the require15
ments of the State in which such individual re16
sides so that the treatment wishes of that indi17
vidual will be carried out if the individual is un18
able to communicate those wishes, including re19
quirements regarding the designation of a sur20
rogate decisionmaker (also known as a health
21 care proxy).
22 ‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement
23 for explanations under clause (i) to consultations
24 furnished in a State—
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â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been
2 addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining
3 treatment to constitute a set of medical orders
4 respected across all care settings; and
5 ‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for or6
ders for life sustaining treatment described in
7 clause (iii).
8 ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
9 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
10 program that—
11 ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
12 and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
13 ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
14 orders to physicians and other health profes15
sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro16
fessional̢۪s authority under State law) may sign
17 orders for life sustaining treatment;
18 ‘‘(III) provides training for health care
19 professionals across the continuum of care
20 about the goals and use of orders for life sus21
taining treatment; and
22 ‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake23
holders includes representatives from emergency
24 medical services, emergency department physi25
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa-
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428
â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
2 agency responsible for senior services, state de3
partment of health, state hospital association,
4 home health association, state bar association,
5 and state hospice association.
6 ‘‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—
7 ‘‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection
8 (r)(1)); and
9 ‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assist10
ant who has the authority under State law to sign
11 orders for life sustaining treatments.
12 ‘‘(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination
13 under subsection (WW), including any related discussion
14 during such examination, shall not be considered an ad15
vance care planning consultation for purposes of applying
16 the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
17 ‘‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with re18
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
19 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
20 change in the health condition of the individual, including
21 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
22 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
23 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
24 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
25 a hospice program.
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â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in2
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
3 treatment or a similar order.
4 ‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order
5 regarding life sustaining treatment̢۪ means, with respect
6 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
7 the treatment of that individual that—
8 ‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as de9
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
10 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
11 is acting within the scope of the professional̢۪s au12
thority under State law in signing such an order, in13
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
14 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in15
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
16 and providers across the continuum of care;
17 ‘‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in19
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de20
sired by the individual;
21 ‘‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized
22 within a given locality, region, or State (as identified
23 by the Secretary); and
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â€Â¢HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as
2 defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the in3
dividual.
4 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara5
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat6
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
7 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in8
clude indications respecting, among other items—
9 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
10 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
11 or pulmonary problems;
12 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
13 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set14
ting;
15 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
16 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri17
tion and hydration.̢̢۪۪. |
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08/06/2009 09:01:28 AM · #362 |
Question:
Is there a site we can go to and see the congress and senate healthcare package they receive. So we can compare it to what it being proposed in bill HR3200ih?
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08/06/2009 09:26:51 AM · #363 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are more bad than good......that's how stereotypes happen, by the way......it's an EARNED thing. |
Originally posted by karmat:
I could touch this, but I won't, except to say, "uh, no." |
Which part are you "noing" about?
The behavior of the old blood, monied set, or how you arise at strereotypes?
I think you'll find that until the generation of my parents dies off, it's classic behavior to be elitist, bigoted, and pretty much have a head-in-the-sand attitude about how the world around them not only needs to change, but *is* changing around them.
If my dad could, he'd disown me all over again for voting for Barack Obama.
He doesn't feel "their kind" has any place in the House.......except perhaps as a doorman.
It's really sad.......and he's no different than the parents of the kids I grew up with that populated the country club, et al........where to this day, it's a complete WASP environ.....I don't have a clue how they get away with it. |
I'm "noing" how stereotypes happen. You have ONE stereotype that you seem to think is deserved, but then if that be the case, why can't my husband be racist? You see, for his childhood and teen years he was bullied and picked on by black guys. In "his world" (which at the time was about 2:1 black to white) all the blacks he knew were mean, cheating, and bullies. If he had that stereotype, and was on a forum such as this saying it was deserved or earned because it was rooted in truth, I have no doubt that you would be one of the first telling him how misguided it was. :( (That is not his viewpoint, by the way; he does NOT hold that stereotype).
And if you were just saying that ONE particular stereotype is "honest" (my word) you weren't very clear about it, but it still isn't fair. If you are going to hold dear to that stereotype because of your past experiences, then please be accepting and tolerant of others on here when they seem to hold fast to theirs based on their past experiences. |
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08/06/2009 09:38:32 AM · #364 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
My solution? All you idiots who want government run, socialized health care can have it and opt into it. Leave the rest of us alone! |
Which is exactly Mr. Obama's proposal. Thank you for your support. |
Correction: Obama wants to create a govt run option paid for by people that won't be using it. Not surprisingly, the people that will use it and not pay for it have no problem with this. |
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08/06/2009 09:42:47 AM · #365 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
Which brings me to my still unanswered question that I've asked for the bazillionth time: HOW WILL GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE BE FUNDED?????????? |
How about with the money currently spend propping up the lifestyle of insurance company CEOs? You think were going to pay for government health care and keep paying what we do now to insurance? Use some common sense -- we'll pay for it with the same (or fewer) total dollars as we spend on health care now. |
Correction: If you took out all the profits and big CEO bonuses of the existing healthcare insurance companies premiums would drop 0.5%. Congrats, your $850 monthly premium is now only $845.75!!! You can buy an extra cupcake each month. WOOHOO!
Edit to add:
Correction on my correction... it's actually 0.6% //www.factcheck.org/politics/pushing_for_a_public_plan.html
My bad. Your premium is now $844.90 per month. You can get sprinkles on your cupcake!
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 10:06:13. |
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08/06/2009 09:50:37 AM · #366 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
If you Republicans are going to claim that you sincerely care about this issue and about enacting real reform, you've got to produce the evidence. You're the only one, AJHopp, who has even taken a stab at it thus far, and I fail to see how McCain's plan reforms the health care system in a way that deals with its major failings. Is that all you've got to offer in the way of Republican ideas? |
Correction: I posted some ideas, actually in a reply to a request that you made! Not sure how you missed that. Maybe you should pay more attention? I believe others have posted ideas as well. |
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08/06/2009 11:23:12 AM · #367 |
Edit post because I found the article that refers to Individuals being penalized.
Individuals who decline an offer of affordable coverage would pay 2.5 percent of their incomes as a penalty, up to the average cost of a health insurance plan.
Who and what defines affordable coverage?
Yahoo News (AP)
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 11:34:55. |
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08/06/2009 11:58:51 AM · #368 |
Here are some of the things people are saying is in the HR3200iH bill. I have not researched all of them so I am not saying they are true or false. I just wanted to post so users could look at the list. It provides the page number of the bill that reference the claim. So you can decide for yourself. At the bottom will be a link to the current HR3200iH bill in consideration.
* Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insured
* Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed
* Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
* Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
* Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
* Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
* Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
* Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
* Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
* Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
* Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
* Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
* Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter
* Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
* Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
* Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
* Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
* Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
* Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
* Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
* Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
* Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
* Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
* Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
* Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
* Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
* Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
* Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
* Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
* Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
* Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
* Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
* Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
* Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
* Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
* Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
* Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
* Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
* Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
* Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
* Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
* Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
* Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
* Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
* Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
* Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
BILL HR3200iH as of August 6th, 2009. |
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08/06/2009 12:59:41 PM · #369 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I'm "noing" how stereotypes happen. You have ONE stereotype that you seem to think is deserved, but then if that be the case, why can't my husband be racist? You see, for his childhood and teen years he was bullied and picked on by black guys. In "his world" (which at the time was about 2:1 black to white) all the blacks he knew were mean, cheating, and bullies. If he had that stereotype, and was on a forum such as this saying it was deserved or earned because it was rooted in truth, I have no doubt that you would be one of the first telling him how misguided it was. :( (That is not his viewpoint, by the way; he does NOT hold that stereotype). |
Your husband has every right to be racist and go with the sterwotype that black guys are mean bullies.....that'd be how he was conditioned by his exposure. How could I possibly tell him that his perception of black people is wrong? It's based on HIS exposure to the culture he grew up within.
That doesn't necessarily make it right, or particularly nice, but that's the way it is.
I had a repair shop in a very rural setting, and the entire time I was there, I had two black customers.....and both of them bounced checks on me. This is in an area primarily populated by white rednecks who have bigotry ingrained as part of their upbringing. They pretty much feel that black people atre shiftless deadbeats. Were I from that background, I would have to say that my experiences would support the stereotype that's prevalent in my area.
However, I lived for five years in a small, dying industrial town where there were a lot of low income people, of all sorts of ethnic backgrounds and there were good, and bad people. I learned that jerks as well as the finest of human integrity can be found in black, white, brown, Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, European, whatever, people.....so much so that quite a few of my preconceived notions were thrown out the window.
BTW, there wasn't one single person whom I met while living in Steelton that my father would have given the time of day. The unfortunate part of my experience there was that it made it glaringly apparent how much of the typical elitist WASP stereotype he is......
Originally posted by karmat:
And if you were just saying that ONE particular stereotype is "honest" (my word) you weren't very clear about it, but it still isn't fair. If you are going to hold dear to that stereotype because of your past experiences, then please be accepting and tolerant of others on here when they seem to hold fast to theirs based on their past experiences. |
That's the thing about stereotypes.........my dad holds one for the people I lived with in Steelton, but to me, the middle European people that populate the town are proud, hardworking, religious, family oriented people. Those are both stereotypes based on personal experience. How my father arrived at his, I'm afraid is a whole lot less honest than the one I maintain, but no less valid for him than mine is to me. Are either of them fair? Is only the complimentary one fair? The black community is pretty much the same way, and it isn't at all uncommon to see a black man and a Slav shaking off the exhaustion of a hard day at the steel mill side by side in one of the bars in town. BTW, that town is densely populated with fire halls, churches, and bars, many more so of all than in most towns.
It was mostly an observation of social strata that prompted my comment about rich people, especially when you consider what is a stereotypical "Old Guard" Republican. You may feel free to disagree, I'm really justy stating that I understand where that stereotype comes from. My parents were friends of Dan Quale's parents, and some of the stories I used to hear about what an incredible man he was just boggled my mind.
He sure seemed to me to be a bumbling fool.....and he grew up in that type of privileged background that perpetuates the "Old Guard" thinking. The Phoenix/Scottsdale/Wickenburg area is somewhat dense in population for that class of people......from what I've seen, and the people I know from there. (My stepmother was born and raised there, and my mother's family is from there as well......NOT open, free thinking people at all.)
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08/06/2009 01:05:39 PM · #370 |
So, what I hear you saying is that if you have the experience to back it up, you are justified in perpetuating, maintaining, and holding stereotypes?
(FWIW, visit Western NC and you will see a very different picture of the parties -- most of the wealthy people, though there aren't many collectively, seem to have democratic leanings. The rest of the population is split between the two many parties. Definitely not the "Old Guard" you refer to.) |
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08/06/2009 01:58:16 PM · #371 |
Originally posted by karmat:
So, what I hear you saying is that if you have the experience to back it up, you are justified in perpetuating, maintaining, and holding stereotypes?
(FWIW, visit Western NC and you will see a very different picture of the parties -- most of the wealthy people, though there aren't many collectively, seem to have democratic leanings. The rest of the population is split between the two many parties. Definitely not the "Old Guard" you refer to.) |
Oh, good grief!
READ what I said.......it isn't about justification, it's a natural conclusion that just happens when you're exposed to certain behaviors.
If every Golden Retriever you had ever met bit you, you'd probably go with the stereotype that Goldens were mean, right?
I said in my last post that my own upbringing, which should have perpetuated a not so nice stereotype, was shown to be diametrically opposed to the way I feel becausde of my exposure......did you miss that? Did you miss my asking if the two differently held stereotypes were any more or less valid in how they were arrived at?
That's ALL I'm saying......what the heck does that have to do with justification? |
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08/06/2009 05:11:57 PM · #372 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Your husband has every right to be racist and go with the sterwotype that black guys are mean bullies.....that'd be how he was conditioned by his exposure. How could I possibly tell him that his perception of black people is wrong? It's based on HIS exposure to the culture he grew up within.
That doesn't necessarily make it right, or particularly nice, but that's the way it is. |
So, because he had the experience, and it was real to him he would be justified in feeling that way. However, like you, he came to a different conclusion.
Just as you are justified (according to you) in feeling that all wealthy people must be like your parents.
If every GR bit me, I might start to feel a bit prejudiced against them. But, then when people would start to talk about what friendly, great dogs they are, and how great they are with kids, I would probably start to go, "Hmmmm, either they are the exception or I am." and at that point start researching for myself.
Which is exactly what I've done over the years with many of the stereotypes I've been faced with. (and here in the Southern Appalachians, there are a lot of them! may be the same everywhere, I don't know)
It is ironic to me that you come down so hard on your parents for feeling like people like they do (and you feel it is wrong), yet you are the same way, just in reverse.
++++++++++
As far as the actual topic of this thread, who actually knows what the answer is? I don't.
Is Universal Health Care the way to go? Perhaps, but I don't see the need to rush through it to pass it just to say, "Look what we did; we kept a campaign promise."
If I have learned ANYTHING on SC, (and admittedly DPC is a lot less important in the grand scheme of things than the USA), it is that you don't do something that effects a lot of people without first exploring each and every option and trying to troubleshoot and identify all the possible pitfalls and loopholes before it goes live. Yea, it slows things down, and many of ya'll feel that we are ineffective and inefficient, but on the things we've just done to see what would happen, it becomes a nightmare.
It has taken many years to get into this situation, I don't think we can get it all solved in just a few hundred days.
Message edited by author 2009-08-06 17:13:35. |
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08/06/2009 05:21:24 PM · #373 |
Originally posted by karmat:
If I have learned ANYTHING on SC, (and admittedly DPC is a lot less important in the grand scheme of things than the USA), it is that you don't do something that effects a lot of people without first exploring each and every option and trying to troubleshoot and identify all the possible pitfalls and loopholes before it goes live. |
Can you say "time-lapse photography" ...? ;-)
Of course, SC was not responsible for that ...
We (the US government) has been "exploring options" (well, except for the last few years) since the first Clinton administration. At what point do you quit fiddling the the settings and just press the shutter-button? |
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08/06/2009 05:32:14 PM · #374 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by karmat:
If I have learned ANYTHING on SC, (and admittedly DPC is a lot less important in the grand scheme of things than the USA), it is that you don't do something that effects a lot of people without first exploring each and every option and trying to troubleshoot and identify all the possible pitfalls and loopholes before it goes live. |
Can you say "time-lapse photography" ...? ;-)
Of course, SC was not responsible for that ...
We (the US government) has been "exploring options" (well, except for the last few years) since the first Clinton administration. At what point do you quit fiddling the the settings and just press the shutter-button? |
Do YOU think it is ready to go into action?
I don't. I'm hearing and seeing a lot of questions (some of them from the people that have to pass it) that don't seem to be answered. I'll look harder, but it just seems to me that the powers that be want to do it to have it done.
In the link I posted, the debt the proposal incurs around 2018-2019 is kinda scary looking to me. |
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08/06/2009 10:43:36 PM · #375 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Just as you are justified (according to you) in feeling that all wealthy people must be like your parents.
It is ironic to me that you come down so hard on your parents for feeling like people like they do (and you feel it is wrong), yet you are the same way, just in reverse. |
Do me a favor....you keep jumping to these conclusions based on where YOU want to take them, and misinterpreting what I say. Just read/listen, and take it for what it is and stop extrapolating.
I don't feel that all wealthy people are like that. I feel that there is a large percentage of old money, Main Line, Republican Old Guard out there who act in a very bigoted, elitist way. It's a stereotype because it's real. These people sent their kids to private schools, chose their friends, established clubs and organizations to filter the type of people who were acceptable, and if you haven't lived among this culture, you cannot possibly imagine what it's like.
My father decided at one point that I should learn the value of a dollar, some strange conscience quirk that came out of nowhere, so I was sent to caddy at the same country club where we were members. So there I am, working at the country club alongside the "regular" people who populate this country, and who were there to make their living, so that my father could make a point. I was *NOT* to fraternize with those people because they were "beneath our station". He actually said that out loud, and meant it. Somehow, these people whom I worked beside, for money they needed to live from, that I didn't save for my father's idea that I should learn what it's like to work, weren't good enough for me to be friends with...
You want to tell me I'm too hard on my father because he tried to teach me that I'm better than another man? Let it alone.
I choose who I hang around with based on who they are as people, and how they treat me, not because of where they're from, who their parents were, the color of their skin, or how much money they have.
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