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DPChallenge Forums >> Individual Photograph Discussion >> Selling pics to Art Gallery: Am I getting ripped?
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 06/06/2009 11:45:41 PM · #1
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:07:29.
 06/07/2009 12:04:54 AM · #2
sounds like a rip to me honestly. around here at least the average gallery takes 40%, leaving you 60%. I wouldnt expect or settle for any less if I were you. I would definately walk away from that if I were you.
 06/07/2009 12:08:39 AM · #3
I'm not quite sure what's standard about scanning a print for print. That seems like a quick ticket to image degradation. I realize it's to canvas, but that seems a bit weird.

The $5 per 8x12 is probably fair. Consider them "business cards" where you are looking for the person who says, "this is great, I want it big."

The gallery I work with does have high quality files of my photos so they can print on the fly. That's probably one of two standard ways to do it (The other being you keep the files and do the printing yourself). For give-and-forget service where I risk nothing and have to do nothing I get 25% of the print price. That's just as a point of reference for you.
 06/07/2009 12:11:34 AM · #4
There is also no real point to printing and then scanning the photo versus just upsizing it -- you are losing a "generation" in the process.

What would make sense is for the gallery owner to tell you "I can sell a N" x N" canvas of this image for $X" and have you bring it in for sale. I've never heard (until the previous post) of a gallery making their own copies of an artist's work -- still sounds very strange to me.

Message edited by author 2009-06-07 00:12:44.
 06/07/2009 12:14:42 AM · #5
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:10:18.
 06/07/2009 12:16:47 AM · #6
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:11:57.
 06/07/2009 12:20:02 AM · #7
I don't sell 8x12's that cheap to clients, I sure wouldn't hand them over to a gallery who is then going to make additional profits on sales of them.

Matt
 06/07/2009 12:21:25 AM · #8
I wouldn't give the file--ask her for the canvas guy's contact info, work out a print with him that meets her specs on size. Negotiate your cost with him directly--you might get it for 100 instead of 120...

50% commission (360/180) sounds high to me, but 30-40% is not unheard of, and for new artists they may go a bit higher--she has the overhead, after all, of the store front. It might be an overall good move to get your foot in the door, though, as most folks who walk into galleries just walk out with no opportunity at all! Good on you!!
 06/07/2009 12:26:12 AM · #9
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:11:44.
 06/07/2009 12:31:11 AM · #10
I would not give it to her to scan. The problem is if its in her store, I guess you really never know what she is doing with it. It all sounds kinda fishy to me. Be careful and make sure you have a contract with her, that YOU have a copy of that clearly states rights, expenses, rules, etc. I would also make sure that you do have all of the images legally copyright before sending them over.
 06/07/2009 12:32:58 AM · #11
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:11:28.
 06/07/2009 12:36:17 AM · #12
Registering your copyright -- why should you?

Most of what you need to know about (US) copyright is mentioned in or linked-to from this thread.
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Forum search for recent threads on "canvas" -- Canvas On Demand seems to be the most consistent recommendation, though I haven't ordered from them myself (yet).

Message edited by author 2009-06-07 00:45:58.
 06/07/2009 12:44:24 AM · #13
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:11:07.
 06/07/2009 12:55:28 AM · #14
Originally posted by Shutter-For-Hire:
what about us Canadians?

You'll need to find out which of your Federal offices handles it, though I'm sure Canada is a signatory to the Berne Convention, and so the rules (and your rights) should be essentially the same. I think you can register the work with the US Copyright Office as well, though I don't know if you can do that *instead* of registering in Canada. You can always put a notice "© DATE Your_Name" somewhere on any prints, and similarly notate the file as copyrighted in the IPTC data ("File Info" in Photoshop). I've actually done a camera firmware update (to my Canon) so that a copyright notice appears in the "Owner" field of the EXIF data.
 06/07/2009 01:39:18 AM · #15
Plenty of international photographers get copyrights here in the US and let it cover their backs on international distribution, so if you can't figure out the Canadian route, register it in the USA.

As far as your local gallery issues, the percentage she is proposing keeping is quite high, but if this is your first exposure, it isn't unheard of to do a 50/50 or even higher, while they test if there is a market for your stuff. Once you have a track record, 60/40 or 70/30 is the norm depending on how much traffic your name drives to their shop. I am by nature a skeptic, but you might want to trust this gallery a bit, if they are a real gallery they have a reputation to protect amongst artists, and they don't keep salable artist in the gallery by ripping them off. Over the net, or as a one time show in a cafe, caution is never wasted, but if this is your first show and they are a gallery with a decent reputation, you might want to trust them. Of course anyone who prints onto canvas is suspect so.....
 06/07/2009 02:15:42 AM · #16
Originally posted by Shutter-For-Hire:
ok... here's my one question... if she is making the huge canvas from scanning my print, how do I know she won't just keep printing them off behind my back? (she is making a file?)


You have to decide that before you go into the relationship. If you don't trust her, then it's probably not worth it, but on the other hand how is she going to "make a bunch of prints" and sell them without you finding out? It's not like you can't just walk into her gallery and look around. Personally I think it would be way too risky for her to do such a thing. If word got out she did that what photographer would work with her and then how would she make any money?

It does come down to trust, but her trying to make some extra money behind your back is so short-sighted that I wouldn't really worry to much about it.

Message edited by author 2009-06-07 02:17:21.
 06/07/2009 02:29:39 AM · #17
Maybe you can have a chat with one of the other artists represented in the gallery ...
 06/07/2009 05:27:14 AM · #18
In all likelihood, she's profiting twice. Once when she's selling you the canvas print for $120. She probably pays $60, and then again when she sells your print for $360, so, in the end, you make $60 and she gets 4 times that.

Sounds like a raw deal to me.
 06/07/2009 08:48:23 AM · #19
Since you are new to the game, I think that 50% is fair. Not great, but fair, especially in this case in which she is buying your canvas print up front instead if offering it for sale in her store on consignment. You are assured of income instead of waiting for the sale to happen. That's worth something.

I have sold three 18" by 48" canvas prints on consignment in a 50/50 arrangement in a local gallery over the past few months and I wish that the gallery owner would pay for the two that are there now waiting to sell. I do think that the commission is high but I wouldn't have made anything if I didn't agree to her almost exorbitant fee.

Here's a summary of how our agreement developed: I told her what I retail my print for on my website which is $350.00. I found out what her commission is when she replied that she would have to double that to a sale price of $700.00 We both agreed that that was too much to expect someone to pay and I simply told her what I need to get on my end...$275.00. So the sale price was set at $550.00 and she has sold three for me.

This arrangement works because my cost for one 18" by 48" canvas print from Canvas On Demand (highly recommended) is $132.70 including shipping. I would make a profit $142.30, but I usually take advantage of Canvas On Demand's offer to buy multiples of the same print for 50% off. I bring my cost per print down to just under $89.00 each by buying three at a time, so my profit is now $186.00 per print sold.

To sum it up...I suggest that you would work with this gallery in a 50/50 arrangement and set your price based on what you want to make off your print. Consider that you are not selling retail to them, but instead you are giving them somewhat of a wholesale price because they are an established outlet that can probably sell more than you can and at a higher price right now. I wouldn't expect to sell much on my website if I priced these prints at $550.00 but an established gallery can. They need to make an income for themselves and cover the expenses of what they have built over the years and although 50% is a little steep you might be better off 'dealing with it' and making some money (especially since it's up front money to you and not consignment).

I wouldn't ever allow my work to be scanned and printed larger when the alternative and typical way of printing larger is to upsize the file and then print it which results in much less compromising of quality. Why would anyone compromise the quality of the image when there is a better choice?

Don't use her printer unless he has something to offer that is superior to the service, product, and price of Canvas On Demand. Besides those three reasons to use Canvas On Demand, you'll have the peace of mind that the two aren't colluding to produce multiples of your work without your knowledge. Not that I disagree with previous posters...I think she would be out of her mind to take a chance on ruining her reputation by doing so.

edited for spelling

Message edited by author 2009-06-07 10:24:58.
 06/07/2009 10:06:44 AM · #20
IMHO you are getting screwed. :(

If you are thinking about this deal, remember to consider it is setting the benchmark for what your art is worth in the future. I hope it would be on a signed contract for a limited amount of time, at which point you can pull the deal or renegotiate? Bottom line is that if you only consider your artwork to be worth $5 for an 8x12 and are willing to settle for that, it is what your art will be thought of.... as cheap second rate work. (which I know from your photography is not really the case...you do good work)

I think that the figures yakatme has presented are reasonable. The other thing is....how do you control the quality of the final output if you are letting them print it? Do you have the right to refuse to let it be sold if you do not like the quality? Also the way she says "she will enlarge it and putit on canvas" bothers me. There are several ways to make canvas prints and one of them (the least favourable) is to make a print and then use a process to adhere the print to the stretched canvas. The best way to do it is like Canvas on Demand does it and many others which is to directly print on the canvas itself.

I have sold several 16x24" canvas prints of this image below in the just under $300 range.
06/07/2009 10:20:47 AM · #21
Originally posted by basssman7:
If you are thinking about this deal, remember to consider it is setting the benchmark for what your art is worth in the future....

...Bottom line is that if you only consider your artwork to be worth $5 for an 8x12 and are willing to settle for that, it is what your art will be thought of.... as cheap second rate work.


I didn't even address this part because I wrote it off as ludicrous. I agree that you should never devalue your work this much. I wouldn't even consider selling it this cheap.

I am pursuing a possible sale (a long shot and not likely) of 25,000 prints to a chain business. If they are serious about their interest in my work then I will greatly reduce my prices, but it would take all of the 25,000 order to get me to go that low and I still probably wouldn't compromise quite that much.
 06/07/2009 09:38:55 PM · #22
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:10:49.
 06/07/2009 09:58:51 PM · #23
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Message edited by author 2009-06-22 22:25:49.
 06/07/2009 10:03:41 PM · #24
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Message edited by author 2009-06-21 22:10:04.
 06/07/2009 10:09:43 PM · #25
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Message edited by author 2009-06-22 22:25:23.
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