Can you protest a disqualification?

04/20/2009 12:39:04 AM · #76

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm pretty unclear as to why whatever rules apply to one shot don't apply to the other. Heck, they are practically identical ideas.

No argument there.

The crayon/lipstick shot has not been validated yet.

sempermarine

Apple iPhone 5s

04/20/2009 12:43:29 AM · #77

What about this one...(thought I'd throw another log on the fire, besides I'm bored)

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

04/20/2009 12:45:19 AM · #78

Originally posted by sempermarine:

What about this one...(thought I'd throw another log on the fire, besides I'm bored)

N/A. Selective desaturation of existing objects was not the issue. No arbitrary shapes were created.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

04/20/2009 12:45:23 AM · #79

Naw, that one didn't have parts of individual colors 1/2 there and 1/2 not there.

sempermarine

Apple iPhone 5s

04/20/2009 12:48:06 AM · #80

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by sempermarine:
What about this one...(thought I'd throw another log on the fire, besides I'm bored)

N/A. Selective desaturation of existing objects was not the issue. No arbitrary shapes were created.

Got it. Thanks

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

04/20/2009 12:51:25 AM · #81

You can yabber on about it 'til you're blue in the face, but the rules are clear that the SC has the discretion to DQ any for any reason and aside from appealing to their better nature, there's nothing you can do, regardless of the circumstances.

Sound arbitrary?

Yep, it sure is.

BOHICA

04/20/2009 01:03:19 AM · #82

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

the rules are clear that the SC has the discretion to DQ any for any reason and aside from appealing to their better nature, there's nothing you can do, regardless of the circumstances.

Well, we're not quite as arbitrary as that. There are some background issues on this technique that we've never quite resolved. Hopefully this will provide the motivation to do so! Nobody likes to see inconsistent decisions.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f/1.7 Aspherical MF Wide Angle - Black

04/20/2009 01:04:29 AM · #83

One practical workaround I see would be to post the vote results (at least by number) for validations and DQs. That way, if you see a 6-5 validation you know you are skating on thin ice and could potentially lose the battle even though your shot is similar. If the shot was a 12-0 DQ, it's pretty obvious you shouldn't go there.

Otherwise we're left with stuff like this. The only workaround I see now is to either DQ both shots or neither. SC can't say, "well, that was then and it was a bad call but we're not going to go back and DQ it" because we have new people who won't be familiar with the thread and only see the ribbon shot from previous that was validated.

Paul

Leica SL

04/20/2009 02:14:04 AM · #84

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm pretty unclear as to why whatever rules apply to one shot don't apply to the other. Heck, they are practically identical ideas.

No argument there.

The crayon/lipstick shot has not been validated yet.

I've been reading this thread for a while now and have wondered how similar my lipstick shot was to the DQ'd image; especially as it has been in validation for quite a while. I actually don't mind how this goes so let me add some context. I have an intermediate version where I had left all of the mouth red. I then saw that actually she was applying her lipstick and so I went on to desaturate most of her mouth, leaving just a section. Most of this is non-arbitary, it is bounded by the the mouth, and the edge of the crayon; however, the shape the edge of the desaturation just above the tip of the crayon is just guided by my judgement. New image element? - I don't think so; arbitary shape? Definitely. Didn't occur to me this might not be allowed but the words 'arbitary shape' really help, if I had've considered it that way before, I wouldn't have done it. I'd offer to self DQ with this enhanced clarity but I figure it is important for SC to complete their work and to rule on this to show where the line is.

I wouldn't have jumped in here, but since my image has already been posted in the forum - I thought I would.

I actually think these debates are really useful and I learn a lot from them.

As I said before, I'm quite happy either way - I don't think the images in question could be looked at as attempts to circumvent rules, innocent misinterpretation is all that is happening here.

I hope this helps add some clarity to my image,

Yours expectantly

Paul

Message edited by author 2009-04-20 02:19:47.

Dirt_Diver

Nikon D3s

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/20/2009 07:16:33 AM · #85

Message edited by author 2009-04-20 07:20:53.

BeeCee

Nikon D40

04/20/2009 07:27:47 AM · #86

Originally posted by paulbtlw:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm pretty unclear as to why whatever rules apply to one shot don't apply to the other. Heck, they are practically identical ideas.

No argument there.

The crayon/lipstick shot has not been validated yet.

I've been reading this thread for a while now and have wondered how similar my lipstick shot was to the DQ'd image; especially as it has been in validation for quite a while. I actually don't mind how this goes so let me add some context. I have an intermediate version where I had left all of the mouth red. I then saw that actually she was applying her lipstick and so I went on to desaturate most of her mouth, leaving just a section. Most of this is non-arbitary, it is bounded by the the mouth, and the edge of the crayon; however, the shape the edge of the desaturation just above the tip of the crayon is just guided by my judgement. New image element? - I don't think so; arbitary shape? Definitely. Didn't occur to me this might not be allowed but the words 'arbitary shape' really help, if I had've considered it that way before, I wouldn't have done it. I'd offer to self DQ with this enhanced clarity but I figure it is important for SC to complete their work and to rule on this to show where the line is.

I wouldn't have jumped in here, but since my image has already been posted in the forum - I thought I would.

I actually think these debates are really useful and I learn a lot from them.

As I said before, I'm quite happy either way - I don't think the images in question could be looked at as attempts to circumvent rules, innocent misinterpretation is all that is happening here.

I hope this helps add some clarity to my image,

Yours expectantly

Paul

What a refreshing, admirable response :)

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

04/20/2009 08:04:07 AM · #87

Originally posted by BeeCee:

What a refreshing, admirable response :)

Agreed.

mchalmers

Nikon D90

04/20/2009 11:06:51 AM · #88

I think that really the controversy is over 'The Painter', not the photo in the OP.

SC appears to have been very consistent in DQing photos that create new shapes using selective desat, which the OP's CLEARLY did.

I don't think it's realistic to go back and DQ 'The Painter', even if that would be the right decision, however I do agree that others could look at that photo and mistakenly think that it's an allowable technique.

Would it be possible for SC to add a note to 'The Painter' explaining that the decision not to DQ the photo was contentious, and that it was only allowed for that particular challenge?

senor_kasper

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

04/20/2009 11:15:17 AM · #89

Originally posted by mchalmers:

Now that is a good idea !!

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/20/2009 11:52:49 AM · #90

So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say you used desat and left one STRIP of blue in the sky...is that a dq?
Let's say you used desat and left one CIRCLE of blue in the sky...is that a dq?
Let's say you used desat and left one POLYGON of blue in the sky...is that a dq?

Yes, all DQs. Per the rules, you can desaturate an existing object (the sky), but you cannot use any tool to create new shapes.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/20/2009 12:02:14 PM · #91

Originally posted by kenskid:

So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Yup, that seems to be the case...

R.

MattO

Nikon D4

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/20/2009 12:06:33 PM · #92

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kenskid:
So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Yup, that seems to be the case...

R.

Actually based on the statements by the SC members in the earlier thread it would be OK because the challenge description called for that style of editing.

Matt

04/20/2009 12:14:36 PM · #93

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kenskid:
So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Yup, that seems to be the case...

Actually based on the statements by the SC members in the earlier thread it would be OK because the challenge description called for that style of editing.

I doubt it. I would expect a pretty lopsided DQ vote.

04/20/2009 12:15:21 PM · #94

Wow ! If your reply is correct then everything is out of wack.... It would mean that the "title" of the challenge could in effect "change what the rules imply".

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kenskid:
So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Yup, that seems to be the case...

R.

Actually based on the statements by the SC members in the earlier thread it would be OK because the challenge description called for that style of editing.

Matt

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/20/2009 12:18:46 PM · #95

You should have done it like my cat entry....maybe you would have not got a DQ. LOL....

MattO

Nikon D4

04/20/2009 12:19:13 PM · #96

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kenskid:
So if there was a challege called "Blue Strip" and it was Advanced Rules....and I desaturated the sky except for one blue strip...I would get a DQ?

Yup, that seems to be the case...

Actually based on the statements by the SC members in the earlier thread it would be OK because the challenge description called for that style of editing.

I doubt it. I would expect a pretty lopsided DQ vote.

I don't see how based on your comments earlier that SC members felt the editing on "The Painter" called for that type of editing, and since the description was blue stripes, wouldn't using the same reasoning call for it on the example that Kenskid described? Surely we want to be consistent and fair huh?

Matt

MattO

Nikon D4

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/20/2009 12:21:05 PM · #97

Originally posted by kenskid:

You should have done it like my cat entry....maybe you would have not got a DQ. LOL....

Was this validated? Because I'm pretty sure the Thanksgiving shot that stirred up the fuss over this the last time also had a new object but was DQ'ed for fooling the voters by being a picture of a picture.

Matt