Prints and Colors - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

03/31/2009 11:11:47 AM · #1

I'm sure this has been asked at least a gazillion times, but I need your help.

I'm using a MacBook Pro with Adobe CS4 with the sRGB color-space with Monitor RGB as the Proof View.

With this setup, I have it pretty accurate for save-for-web. I edit in ACR then immediately switch to Proof view and that shows pretty much what I'll get on the web.

Now my question: I want to have color accuracy in prints but afraid of washing out or over saturating colors. Do you think the Proof View will be more true to the prints or do you think that the non-proof view will be more true to the colors represented? Also, do you save in TIFF when ready to print or do you do JPEG?

Any advice is welcome and I do not have any hardware calibration tools. Thanks!

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

03/31/2009 11:55:45 AM · #2

Do a soft proof with the printer profile to see what the print will look like.

My prints are pretty accurate as are my web images.

I print from the RAW file in Lightroom. If printing from photoshop I use the PSD to print from.

Without a calibrated monitor it can be a crap shoot to get the colours right from one device to another though not impossible. Watch the histogram and make use of soft proofing as you have been doing.

03/31/2009 12:07:22 PM · #3

As far as printing from a professional printer, do you usually bring in a disk of TIFFs, JPEGs, or PSDs? That's what I'm most worried about.

03/31/2009 12:35:41 PM · #4

probably - like DPCPrints Jpegs.

if you haven't assigned or converted the jpeg image to a profile the printer doesn't use - the color profile is still attached. well either way its attached - but you don't want to convert and then reconvert.

to be safe, if it's a local place you'll be printing from, i'd call and ask what file format and color profile they want/use. if you know those facts you can soft proof based on their needs. if it's a specific printer profile - they may offer a download of it to use with your softproofing.

ETA - with jpeg - don't use a save for web file - use save as... jpeg

ideally - IMO you should edit in the widest color profile you have available. i use ProPhotoRGB.

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 12:38:08.

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

03/31/2009 12:56:16 PM · #5

Originally posted by soup:

So if they say they use sRGB, then my current setup would serve fine then? I would just use the monitor RGB to check (typically shows less saturation) and that would probably be more accurate of what would be printed? Or would the proof view being unchecked (more saturated for me) be more accurate a print.

Sorry about all the questions, it's like thinking in complex numbers in differential equations, hard to wrap your mind around.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

03/31/2009 01:05:32 PM · #6

If the print shop says save it in sRGB then that is what you should save it in. This isn't the printer profile but it is what their print process assumes the embedded profile in your image to be. The print process will convert from the embedded profile to the printer profile.

As soup has said, use the printer profile to soft proof your image. Don't convert the file to the printer profile.

03/31/2009 01:22:42 PM · #7

The local shop said they use Adobe sRGB, I'm assuming that means Adobe RGB (1998).

03/31/2009 01:25:14 PM · #8

if you are working in sRGB already - as the photoshop working space - you shouldn't even need to soft proof - if the print shop is asking for an sRGB colorspace.

at least that's my understanding.

if you're working in a color space other than what the print shop uses - you need to soft proof in the color space they use, or the printer profile they use.

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 13:25:49.

03/31/2009 01:27:13 PM · #9

i'm thinking that is a wrong assumption.

your working space - would be my guess as to what they mean. you could be more specific in your question.

i think they are reffering to sRGB IEC61966-2.1

however - if they DO use the Adobe RGB(1998) color space. you should start to export from RAW in that space, and set PS's working space to the same.

Originally posted by GoingsKing:):

The local shop said they use Adobe sRGB, I'm assuming that means Adobe RGB (1998).

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 13:34:39.

03/31/2009 01:46:02 PM · #10

i'll add a bit of curiosity to this thread - just for the hell of it.

i find it kinda funny - and - THE question has been asked a bazillion times :)

that generally there are only a couple of us that respond to the questions about color space. i miss dwoolridge !!! he is an expert on the subject...

it would seem with a 100K users + more would understand how it all works in an algorithmic aspect.

i think most understand that what you see ( on the monitor ) isn't necessarily what you get - as far as color rendition - but that few seem to care...

as a group of diligant photographers - i would think that color accuracy would be one of the most important things to understand - after understanding how the camera actually works - of course.

so - in no way shape or form is it a stupid question. i just find it odd that so few really take the time to try to understand color theory, and how it translates into a digital world.

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 13:47:21.

03/31/2009 01:50:49 PM · #11

Good point Tim. I didn't really realize the whole color-space issue until earlier this year, gadzooks! I finally got my DPC entries to look the way the do when I edit them (roughly). I wonder how many have just cared about that aspect? The printing part seems like a different beast altogether, though not entirely.

I must thank the color gurus out there as they have been infinitely patient with my spew of color questions (very graphic I know, but it just seemed to fit).

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

03/31/2009 01:58:57 PM · #12

the medium of the web is different than the medium of print.

what - seems to me - the print medium has done - is come to terms with the fact that most view images in sRGB ( on a monitor ). so they have sort of made that a standard form of delivery for files they are going to print. that doesn't mean that printer itself is using the sRGB color space as a means to render color. it means - as mentioned - the sRGB file is converted to the space the printer actually uses - on the print shops end.

so - for the most accurate color rendition from a given printer/print shop - you would soft proof the actual printer profile used to spit out the ink. although - submitting an image in the profile they recommend ( sRGB for instance - and i think in this case ) should lead to pretty accurate results - because they have a system to convert that profile into the printers profile efficiently and effectively.

IMO - using the widest gamut color space when converting from RAW to PSD or TIFF is beneficial - because my above assumptions might not be accurate in 5yrs time. so i choose to use the widest color space option available ( to my knowledge ) ProPhotoRGB. what this allows me is to edit and save a PSD file in a very wide color space - that MIGHT be the standard color space in the future. if that holds true - i'll w/o a doubt have better color rendition in print than sRGB could ever hope to offer. while at the same time i am able to shrink that wide gamut profile down to a smaller one ( sRGB or Adobe RGB ) with little loss of quality - today. however - there is NO going the other way. you can take an sRGB image and make it ProPhotoRGB - but you lost the wider color range when you exported to sRGB. unless you reconvert the RAW file to the ProPhotoRGB color space.

FWIW - RAW files don't have an assigned color space - so upon exporting the RAW file - you are making that choice.

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 14:07:30.

Prof_Fate

03/31/2009 02:35:15 PM · #13

Find and talk to a pro lab - HH color, millers, WHCC, ProFilmet and I can give you a dozen more if you'd like.

sRGB is what 99% take as a color space. DO NOT send them anything else. Since each colorspace is larger/smaller than the other you WILL get a color shift when converting. Since AdobeRGB has more colors than sRGB when you convert 'down' what isn't an exact match will be guessed at - and you get a color shift. So it's best to do everything in sRGB since the web and prints use it.

Pick a lab and set up an account. Do a few test prints and see what you get back. Some labs color correct everything, most offer you a choice to let them do it, or you can do it (for less costly prints too). A pro lab knows what they are doing and will advise you if you ask them for help. They all have a test file that they'll send you for you to look at and compare to a printed version of it.

You are looking for color accuracy of course, but also saturation and contrast. The most important thing to look at is shadow/hightlight. What is all black? 0? Sure, but 15 may print as black. 255 is blown out, but what about 240? 245? 250? Where is the threshold? It can be different for different printers, print types, etc. By as much as 20 points (a whole stop!)

Make up 3 or 4 versions of a file with different names and have them all printed and sent back to you. Compare them to your screen, to what you think looks best. Then write it down and stick with it. Every 6 months or so do another comparison to make sure you're not drifting (or the lab's not changed something).

rossbilly

Nikon D200

03/31/2009 02:42:03 PM · #14

easy answer:

just ask your local printing company for a test print. if it doesn't come out the way you want, talk to the print-person & ask for advice. also, ask nicely & they may let you take that test print home so that you can compare it to what you see onscreen.

every time we try a different print company, we get different results. once we found the one that gave excellent results STRAIGHT FROM OUR FILES, we stuck with them.

eta - good info chris

we've tried H&H, Millers, MPIX, AdoramaPix, Wal-Greens/Mart, and a few others. Each has their own abilities but, for the most part, you DO get what you pay for. Do yourself a huge favor & just start with one of the really good labs. You can do it the hard way by trying to go cheap, but you WILL regret it later if quality is important to you.

Message edited by author 2009-03-31 14:58:35.

Prof_Fate

03/31/2009 05:02:49 PM · #15

Good points there.
You have to find a lab you work well with and stick with them. Build a relationship. Then when you need something special, or a favor, or have a problem you'll get a much better response.

I use two labs for 95% of my needs and then a few other companies for specialty stuff since not every lab sells everything. You need predictable results first and foremost. You can't be guessing what a print will look like.

Price isn't always a sign of quality (usually is, but not always). The lab I use for most things are cheaper on the small prints (8x10 and under) and I love their quality. But their wallets I don't like as much so I use a different outfit for them -and yes, the colors match from different labs (they should if everyone knows what they're doing). But I get a lot of prints and lower cost of my main lab pays off - saves me hundreds of dollars a month, thousands a year.

So it can be a tough decision and it may take you a few labs to find one you like- their prints, but also their policies, software, turnaround, packaging, people, etc. It's an important decision as the print IS your product!