Construction Business Portfolio Shoot - questions

01/27/2009 05:27:43 PM · #1

Another "how much should I charge" thread - I've been asked to do a series of shoots at various locations for a friend of mine who has a successful home construction & remodeling business. It's about 8 - 10 locations around the area - I'm guessing one or two full days of shooting and another day of processing. The photos will be used on his website and in brochures.

Here are my questions:
- How much do you think is reasonable to charge? Consider that I don't have any professional experience, but he has seen my work and is very impressed (and he has hired pros in the past). Also consider there won't be any revenue from prints or royalties - it's essentially a time-for-money project.
- What kind of lighting equipment should I consider bringing considering the shoots will be fast paced and setup/breakdown time must be minimal and there will be some indoor and some outdoor shots. Point me to any helpful resources if you feel like it.
- Any other tips? I plan on using my 10-22 and 24-105 mostly, but am considering renting or buying a fisheye - maybe.

Just looking for ideas and suggestions.

THANKS in advance!

Nikon AF Nikkor -S DX 18-105 f3.5-5.6

01/27/2009 06:26:11 PM · #2

What is your cost? If it's $75 an hour and it's 24 hours (3 days) then start there as a minumum.
That's for creation.
Now you have output...prints or files? This can be built into the top figure to a degree. Shoot awedding and it takes 24 hours and $100 for proofs, so its' 24 x 75 plus $100. You don't have to markup the print if all the editing is done (as it would be for a proof book in my example).

Usage is the tricky one. Personal photos like weddings and seniors are just that, their only value is the memory/beauty of them. For your question there is a commercial aspect to it, and it's hard as hell to come up with a price.
If he's paying for all the creation then perhaps you dont care about more costs/value. Part of the reason for charging for prints is the time to do the work - edit, print, package, deliver, etc.

I'm shooting a magician next week - he wants rights to the images for flyers, cards, website, ads, brochures, etc, as well as possibly 100 prints or so as promo handouts. I have no clue on the value of this - it's worth what he'll pay, or at the least what I'll take for doing the work.

I'd like to get $48/file plus the shoot and edit time, perhaps 3 hours. Pricing it by the file will put some control back in my hands rather than $150 for everything we shoot that's worthy. I know once he gets the files he's got the control.

Would I be satisfied with $300 for all of it? Probably. Does it matter than maybe this is worth more? Not to me.

-----------------
Part 2 - shooting architecture. This can be very involved - I had lunch wtih a guy tthat does this. Good god, the things you never thought of. Seasons...want green bushes? Want bare trees (to better see the building?) Weather is a factor - cloudy skys, overcast vs sunny. A cloudy golfcourse pic will not ever be of value - who wants to golf in anything but sunny weather? But you may have issue with sun and shade and shadows and such...so consider time of day for that, as well as traffic, cars in parking lots or on the street, etc.

OK, you've got the season, the time of day, the weather...angle? Can you get what you want from the ground? A cherry picker type truck can allow you get angles that are amazing - and therefore get attention. Costs, but you can pass these along.

OK, you want to go inside now. Lighting is a concern - night shots with black windows is not appealing (can draw the curtains perhaps). Daylight can be almost as bad - not enough light means using incandescent or flourescent -and windows/daylight isn't either color. Multi shots and RAW, etc can be used to overcome this, but be aware you'll have to do it. Most seem to use hotlights to light up interiors - easier to see what you're doing and no need to freeze motion. watch for reflections in windows, furniture, countertops, etc. Adding lights to act as fill to balance shadows is the most common use - how many lights, how to hide the cords depends on the individual job.

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 18:27:49.

cmtc

Nikon D90

01/27/2009 06:33:16 PM · #3

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

so art is human. maybe...

01/27/2009 06:52:05 PM · #4

I just priced a similar job for an architect friend who is building his portfolio. He needs 3-4 sessions, interiors and exteriors of a job he designed. 3-4 sessions are needed because we want to catch some sweet light at the end of the day to show off the exterior lighting and interior features.

I based my price in 3 hours per session with 1.5 hours editing per session-- 4.5 hrs total x $45.00/hr. I also priced a couple of add-ons. Total quote given was between $700-900 depending on the number of shoots. They want to include some shots with models(read-friends who work for pizza and beer). I also threw in a little extra to help with the purchase of an optical correction software like DxO.

I haven't heard back yet so maybe my price was out of line or out of budget. I tried to be fair and accurately figure out how much time would be involved. The owner of the house wants to submit the photos to a architectural magazine, and if the house was chosen for a story, I'm sure the magazine would send their photography team out.

I would think your 10-22 and 24-105 would be perfect. A fisheye is cool but I'm not sure it would be necessary.

01/27/2009 06:54:52 PM · #5

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

OK, you've got the season, the time of day, the weather...angle? Can you get what you want from the ground? A cherry picker type truck can allow you get angles that are amazing - and therefore get attention. Costs, but you can pass these along.

What a brilliant idea-- the guy who owns the house that I have been asked to shoot manufacturers orchard pruning equipment...mainly cherry pickers. Thanks Fate!

01/28/2009 01:44:21 AM · #6

Thanks Prof! I knew I could count on you to give great, detailed advice and/or suck all the excitement out of the gig. ;-) Seriously - very helpful.

RE: The cherry picker - great idea. I also thought of that telescoping pole/live-view/USB extension/tethered to the laptop thing someone posted awhile back. If I have enough lead time, I may just try something along those lines.

mpeters - thanks a bunch for relating your recent proposal info. Sounds very reasonable - I hope you do end up getting the gig.

I'm not going to be on DPC much for awhile, but will check back on this thread for at least a few days if anyone else wants to chime in.

Thanks again!

01/28/2009 01:48:20 PM · #7

li'l bump

01/28/2009 02:28:46 PM · #8

I don't mean to suck the life out of everything, really. It's just a matter of think about all sides/aspects of something rather than the best part.

We all want to be the superbowl MVP, but do you really think about all the hours of work it took to get theere, all the bruises, concussions, losses too.

Experience matters a LOT in photography as you learn from your mistakes. Every shoot I do I learn something from - something that (hopefully) I'll do better next time, but I dont' get all depressed and suididal over bad catchlights or a shadow here or there (anymore at least LOL). I do hate it when a day or two later it's forehead smaking time "I coulda...." or "Why didn't I...".

It's obvious to me after it's too late to do it. Like the wheel or flight or the lightbulb - I'd have invented them myself...about a week too late LOL.

Shit happens. I was talking with my kid's principal and he tells me how he chose the current school photog. Or more interestingly, how the previous one lost the job after 15 or so years. Losing images, missing deadlines because of the lost images and trying to get them back. Some lessons are hard to learn, but perhaps if they'd have asked on some forum they'd have learned about backup. Obvious to them now of course, but apparently no so before the shoot, huh?

01/28/2009 02:35:59 PM · #9

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

- Any other tips? I plan on using my 10-22 and 24-105 mostly, but am considering renting or buying a fisheye - maybe.

Just looking for ideas and suggestions.

THANKS in advance!

For architectural photos you should consider one (or more) of Canon's tilt shift lenses...

Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L Tilt Shift Lens
Canon TS-E 45mm f/2.8 Tilt Shift Lens
Canon TS-E 90mm f/2.8 Tilt Shift Lens

01/28/2009 05:19:34 PM · #10

Thanks Prof - I was just razzin you. I love how you keep it real. :)

Mick: Tilt shift? I checked into those - looks like it would take some practice. I don't know much about them but apparently they can be used to correct distortion in wide angle shots - but not just easy enough to do in photoshop or other SW?

01/28/2009 05:22:49 PM · #11

Check out www.dxo.com. They have perspective/optical correction software specific to your camera/lens combo. You can try the demo prior to purchasing. A budget tilt-shift substitute???

01/28/2009 05:44:28 PM · #12

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Mick: Tilt shift? I checked into those - looks like it would take some practice. I don't know much about them but apparently they can be used to correct distortion in wide angle shots - but not just easy enough to do in photoshop or other SW?

I don't know much about tilt/shift lenses. I've never used one. I've heard that architectural photographers use them quite often. Your post brings up a couple questions...
1. How much practice does it take to turn a knob?
2. If you could get the same results using software, would Canon ever sell any TS lenses?

01/28/2009 09:24:42 PM · #13

TS lenses predate digital, so perhaps they can be used with, what was that, film I think they called it.
Get it right in camera is ALWAYS better than faking it later in PS. Faster too.

Somethings are impossible to fake later - one guy I talked to that did a lot of work for hotels was assigned a shot where there was a mirror in the wall. Using a T/S lens allowed him to (somehow, I don't know how these things do this) be off center and not appear in the mirror, but still get a 'square' image. You will have a tough time cloning in a proper reflection if every shot has you or the camera in it!

Isn't a lens baby a type of cheap t/s lens?

01/28/2009 10:41:53 PM · #14

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Isn't a lens baby a type of cheap t/s lens?

That's what I thought, but I don't think they are designed for the same purpose.

I don't think it's about practicing knob-turning, more about doing things like Prof mentioned - angles, etc.
I'm gonna get some basics down first with lighting and the 10-22. I found this interesting thing: //www.mobilevideosurveillance.com/pricing.htm
They sell it without the video surveillance equipment, but am still waiting to hear back from them about pricing. It's probably pretty expensive.

Message edited by author 2009-01-28 22:42:18.

01/28/2009 11:37:51 PM · #15

Okay, whatever works for you. I think you're more of a photoshopper than a photoshooter anyway, right? :)

As for tilt/shift lenses predating digital, the same can be said for almost all lenses.

Oh, and a Lensbaby is actually nothing at all like a tilt/shift lens.

01/29/2009 11:41:43 AM · #16

I did some googling and a Lensbaby is doing tilt shift photography, as you are really tilting and shifting. The degree of precision such as one would get with a 'real' tilt lens isn't as high but optically the effect is identical. Lensbabies don't shift very much before the image starts vignetting -- maybe a millimeter or two of effective shift, which at 50mm isn't all that much. You get more tilt and selective focus.

The old bellows type cameras were all t/s - the lens board was connected to the back (film) with the bellows and it was on rails to keep it all aligned, but on many of them you could adjust the lens board seperate from the back.

01/29/2009 02:05:30 PM · #17

Originally posted by Mick:

Okay, whatever works for you. I think you're more of a photoshopper than a photoshooter anyway, right? :)

Ouch! :)

01/29/2009 05:27:01 PM · #18

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Here, maybe this will help you understand the huge differences between a Lensbaby and a tilt/shift lens.

From the Lensbaby web site FAQ...

Q. Is the Lensbaby like a tilt-shift lens?
A. The Lensbaby is a uniques SLR lens that has a sweet spot of focus with blur all around the sweet spot. The field of focus is curved, unlike a tilt-shift lens, which has a flat field of focus.

Q. Can the Lensbaby correct converging lines?
A. No. Because the Lensbaby does not have a flat field of focus its tilt action only moves a sweet spot of focus around the image plane and does not correct perspective or make converging lines parallel.

And here are reviews of both from The-Digital-Picture.com...
Lensbaby vs. Tilt-Shift Lens

01/29/2009 05:37:18 PM · #19

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Mick:
Okay, whatever works for you. I think you're more of a photoshopper than a photoshooter anyway, right? :)

Ouch! :)

Sorry, no offense intended. I was referring to your obvious and ofttimes flouted Photoshop skills. Besides, I vaguely remember reading a post by you (perhaps years ago) where you said something similar about yourself--something about having more experience with Photoshop than photography.

04/07/2009 01:05:36 PM · #20

Finally did the first of a series of remodeling project photoshoots. 2 hours of shooting, 3 hours processing. 200 RAW images (many were triple bracketed exposures), 40 final print sized images and will end up with enough for about a dozen final usable-for-web images.

Some of these will be going in his web portfolio. Comments & critiques welcome.

04/07/2009 06:39:24 PM · #21

Overall very nice.
some things jump out at me...780243 and there are few of the same, more or less, shot (front door). I don't like the angle, gives me a nosebleed and the blown out windows dont fit with the quality of everything else.
The "split" images such as 780261, 780263 and especially 780249 need a white or black line where the pics meet. Some look like it's teh same room with a very skinny wall in the middle or sumthin.
i think he'll be happy with them

04/07/2009 06:41:22 PM · #22

Muchos Gracias, Prof! Great feedback. Yeah, some are redundant - I'll let him pick the best ones. The entry way was a really tight spot - hard to shoot - excuses excuses excuses. ;-)

04/07/2009 06:53:11 PM · #23

They look good and they show off the craftsmanship well. Lots of nice woodwork! I'm with the prof on the entry shots-- What about a classic front door shot from the porch side? It would show off the door design, and you might even shoot it a dusk when the warm lights from the interior set off the glass panels.

Did you true up your verticals on any of the really tight shots? ( such as 780259) It's pretty hard to do with a picture that has info all the way to each edge but it can really help a shot look professional IMO. I have shot some pics for an architect friend and he's been pretty anal about this(much more than I would be).

Good work and hope it leads to more...

eta: try to clarify the verticals thing.

Message edited by author 2009-04-07 19:02:51.