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02/19/2012 09:50:05 PM · #1626 |
Originally posted by dtremain:
[ IF some looney-bin mentally-challenged idiot actually, truly believed ... |
Let me guess, your god is the only valid one right?
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Ray
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02/19/2012 10:00:05 PM · #1627 |
looney-bin mentally-challenged idiot?
seriously i meen seriously you should be glad i'm taking my meds right now.
if Jesus Christ walked this earth right now, and told an idiot like you that he was Jesus Christ he would end up in the looney bin with the mentally challenged idiots you so like to pick on. since apparently you are so omnipotent i'm sure you would send him there because that's how you freaks are.
and you talk about mental people. piff
Message edited by author 2012-02-19 23:10:23.
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02/21/2012 01:38:07 AM · #1628 |
Originally posted by nickyb:
dr. achoo and scalvert, i am not religious or anything, but i want to hear what you both think is the point and meaning of life.
thank you :) |
Sorry it took me a day or two to find your question. It's a big one. :)
To answer your question I will answer another. What is our purpose in life? I can find it summed up than in a tiny book in the Old Testament. Do Justice. Love Mercy. Walk in Humility. To do justice is to constantly look out for the poor and less fortunate. The "fatherless and the widow" of our time. To love mercy is to be willing to forgive. To treat anger with love. To walk in humility is to strive to always make it not about you.
This purpose is paraphrased in the New Testament with two simple, yet powerful, commands. Love God. Love others.
If you understand this purpose in life, you will also understand the meaning of it. |
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02/21/2012 02:21:36 AM · #1629 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by nickyb:
dr. achoo and scalvert, i am not religious or anything, but i want to hear what you both think is the point and meaning of life.
thank you :) |
Sorry it took me a day or two to find your question. It's a big one. :)
To answer your question I will answer another. What is our purpose in life? I can find it summed up than in a tiny book in the Old Testament. Do Justice. Love Mercy. Walk in Humility. To do justice is to constantly look out for the poor and less fortunate. The "fatherless and the widow" of our time. To love mercy is to be willing to forgive. To treat anger with love. To walk in humility is to strive to always make it not about you.
This purpose is paraphrased in the New Testament with two simple, yet powerful, commands. Love God. Love others.
If you understand this purpose in life, you will also understand the meaning of it. |
Well if you actually believe in that then how does discrimination fit in? Love thy neighbor, so long as thy neighbor is exactly like me? |
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02/21/2012 05:18:25 AM · #1630 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by nickyb:
dr. achoo and scalvert, i am not religious or anything, but i want to hear what you both think is the point and meaning of life.
thank you :) |
Sorry it took me a day or two to find your question. It's a big one. :)
To answer your question I will answer another. What is our purpose in life? I can find it summed up than in a tiny book in the Old Testament. Do Justice. Love Mercy. Walk in Humility. To do justice is to constantly look out for the poor and less fortunate. The "fatherless and the widow" of our time. To love mercy is to be willing to forgive. To treat anger with love. To walk in humility is to strive to always make it not about you.
This purpose is paraphrased in the New Testament with two simple, yet powerful, commands. Love God. Love others.
If you understand this purpose in life, you will also understand the meaning of it. |
You might be quite surprised by this Doc, but those very attributes you allude to form part of the lifestyles of the native peoples of America and they didn't have a bible to rely on.
I would assume that the same holds true for a myriad of other religions.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-02-21 05:25:07. |
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02/21/2012 05:53:03 AM · #1631 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To answer your question I will answer another. What is our purpose in life? I can find it summed up than in a tiny book in the Old Testament. Do Justice. Love Mercy. Walk in Humility.
...
This purpose is paraphrased in the New Testament with two simple, yet powerful, commands. Love God. Love others. |
That's not paraphrasing it. How does any part of the first paragraph paraphrase to 'Love God' ? - If you'd left it at 'Love others' it'd have been credible. |
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02/21/2012 11:27:05 AM · #1632 |
Originally posted by JH:
That's not paraphrasing it. How does any part of the first paragraph paraphrase to 'Love God' ? - If you'd left it at 'Love others' it'd have been credible. |
It's more obvious with the whole verse:
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
Justice, mercy, humility is the what. God is the why.
Ray, it would be foolish to think Christianity has an exclusive hold on the truth. The motifs of truth can be seen in many cultures. I believe, of course, that Christianity is the most complete description. |
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02/21/2012 12:38:43 PM · #1633 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I believe, of course, that Christianity is the most complete description. |
Even though Islam and Mormonism start with the Old and New Testaments and then build on them? I can see how you'd see your version as "most accurate" but it is clearly not the most "complete" ...
I am heartened to hear that you believe that orthodox Christianity does not have a monopoly on "truth", but then I wonder what the Christian rationale would be for God's motivation for revealing himself in different ways to different cultures, and the justification for the persecution of non-Christians ... |
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02/21/2012 12:59:12 PM · #1634 |
Islam doesn't use the New Testament as scripture as far as I know.
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02/21/2012 01:22:29 PM · #1635 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Islam doesn't use the New Testament as scripture as far as I know. |
It was my understanding that they accept all of the older Prophets (including Jesus, as such), but also include Muhammad as the "last true Prophet" -- but I can check with someone who knows for sure later today. |
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02/21/2012 01:36:08 PM · #1636 |
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all "Abrahamic", monotheistic religions with a common root. Judaism is oldest, followed by Christianity and then Islam (which came into being in the 7th century). Here's something Wiki has to say about these three monotheistic religions. There's a lot more to be found, of course. The relationship between the three is a fascinating topic.
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All Abrahamic religions claim to be monotheistic, worshiping an exclusive God, though known by different names. All of these religions believe that God creates, is one, rules, reveals, loves, judges, and forgives. However, Christianity's Trinitarian doctrine conflicts with Jewish and Muslim concepts of monotheism. They reject the incarnation of God in Christ; the defining feature of the Christian religion, in which salvation is based on a doctrine of atonementâmost commonly substitutionary atonement (for Protestants) and ransom, victory of Christ or satisfaction (for Eastern Orthodox and Catholics)âthrough faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Although Christianity does not profess to believe in three gods, rather three persons, or hypostases, united in one essence, or ousia, in the Godhead, the one "Almighty God," the concept of the Trinity is categorically rejected by the other major Abrahamic religions (and by certain non-mainstreamâgenerally defined by the similarity of beliefs to the Nicene Creedâsects of Christianity, such as Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Scientists).
Since the conception of divine Triunity is not amenable to 'tawhid', the Islamic doctrine of monotheism, Islam considers Christianity to be variously polytheistic or idolatrous. The worship of Jesus, or the ascribing of partners to God, is categorically denounced as the heresy of idolatry by Islam. The incarnation of God in to human form is denounced as a heresy by Judaism. The single largest religious sect of any religionâand the largest Christian sect, Roman Catholicism, with 1.1â1.3 billion adherentsâas many as all sects of Islam combinedâthe second largest Christian sect, Eastern Orthodoxy, with 250â350 million adherents, and the vast majority of Protestant denominations (total ~750 million adherents) together making up more than 2 billion of the 2.1-2.2 billion Christians living as of 2010, defend the doctrine of the Trinityâindeed, Trinitarianism is often used as one marker of orthodox Christian thought and doctrine. Jesus (Arabic: Isa or Yasu, among Muslims and Arab Christians respectively) is common between Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i Faith, but with vastly differing conceptions, viewed as God incarnate and the Saviour of mankind by Christians, and as a Prophet of Islam by Muslims, and a Manifestation of God by Baha'is.
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02/21/2012 02:43:04 PM · #1637 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Islam doesn't use the New Testament as scripture as far as I know. |
It was my understanding that they accept all of the older Prophets (including Jesus, as such), but also include Muhammad as the "last true Prophet" -- but I can check with someone who knows for sure later today. |
It's blasphemous in Islam to call anyone God (as well in Judaism). Islam accepts Jesus as a profit, but if Jesus was a profit, he was a pretty bad one. No profit would call them self God.
He was either a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.
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02/21/2012 02:47:20 PM · #1638 |
Thanks for the link Robert. I always find that stuff interesting. Next Monday I have a meeting of intellectual Christians and the topic of discussion is "what is the bare minimum one could boil Christianity down to?" Should be interesting. I have mine down to two statements.
1) Jesus is divine (ie. God)
2) His death and resurrection is the instrument by which we can attain salvation.
Bam. The rest is window dressing (that's a bit of hyperbole, but you know what I mean).
However, I predict we are going to get into a "historical Jesus" argument after Nullix's post in 5...4...3...(I will be sitting out) |
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02/21/2012 03:20:48 PM · #1639 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
However, I predict we are going to get into a "historical Jesus" argument after Nullix's post in 5...4...3...(I will be sitting out) |
Not just the historical aspect but also Lewis' own faulty logic in determining his divinity. |
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02/21/2012 03:26:45 PM · #1640 |
seems if Jesus had to boil it down, (and he did didn't he?) he would have said "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
maybe thats what is wrong with the world- worrying about our own salvation at the expense of the above.
but then again, sorry to break in on this, years and years of religious school pop out now and agin' |
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02/21/2012 03:29:35 PM · #1641 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
seems if Jesus had to boil it down, (and he did didn't he?) he would have said "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
maybe thats what is wrong with the world- worrying about our own salvation at the expense of the above.
but then again, sorry to break in on this, years and years of religious school pop out now and agin' |
Without disqualifying your sentiment, your statement is incomplete. Loving your neighbor was deemed to be second. Loving God was first. |
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02/21/2012 03:52:43 PM · #1642 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
seems if Jesus had to boil it down, (and he did didn't he?) he would have said "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
maybe thats what is wrong with the world- worrying about our own salvation at the expense of the above.
but then again, sorry to break in on this, years and years of religious school pop out now and agin' |
Without disqualifying your sentiment, your statement is incomplete. Loving your neighbor was deemed to be second. Loving God was first. |
Yeah, but atheists prove all the time that it's not necessary to love God in order to love your neighbor as yourself, and without the threat of eternal damnation to make them do it ... |
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02/21/2012 03:58:22 PM · #1643 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
seems if Jesus had to boil it down, (and he did didn't he?) he would have said "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
maybe thats what is wrong with the world- worrying about our own salvation at the expense of the above.
but then again, sorry to break in on this, years and years of religious school pop out now and agin' |
Without disqualifying your sentiment, your statement is incomplete. Loving your neighbor was deemed to be second. Loving God was first. |
Yeah, but atheists prove all the time that it's not necessary to love God in order to love your neighbor as yourself, and without the threat of eternal damnation to make them do it ... |
I don't seem to recall I said anything to that effect and your view of why Christians would love their neighbor is at a six-year-old level.
From the stages of moral development: The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.
If you want to set up six-year-old Christianity and knock it down go for it. I'm not sure what you are gaining by it.
Message edited by author 2012-02-21 16:05:43. |
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02/21/2012 04:52:32 PM · #1644 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't seem to recall I said anything to that effect and your view of why Christians would love their neighbor is at a six-year-old level.
From the stages of moral development: The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.
If you want to set up six-year-old Christianity and knock it down go for it. I'm not sure what you are gaining by it. |
Okay......and the folks who believe some of the dogma out of fear of damnation, and despite facts, logic, and reason to the contrary are different than six-year-olds how?
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02/21/2012 04:56:35 PM · #1645 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't seem to recall I said anything to that effect and your view of why Christians would love their neighbor is at a six-year-old level.
From the stages of moral development: The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.
If you want to set up six-year-old Christianity and knock it down go for it. I'm not sure what you are gaining by it. |
Okay......and the folks who believe some of the dogma out of fear of damnation, and despite facts, logic, and reason to the contrary are different than six-year-olds how? |
Exactly. |
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02/21/2012 05:11:11 PM · #1646 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't seem to recall I said anything to that effect and your view of why Christians would love their neighbor is at a six-year-old level.
From the stages of moral development: The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.
If you want to set up six-year-old Christianity and knock it down go for it. I'm not sure what you are gaining by it. |
Okay......and the folks who believe some of the dogma out of fear of damnation, and despite facts, logic, and reason to the contrary are different than six-year-olds how? |
Exactly. |
Does that mean we win? |
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02/21/2012 05:12:30 PM · #1647 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't seem to recall I said anything to that effect and your view of why Christians would love their neighbor is at a six-year-old level.
From the stages of moral development: The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.
If you want to set up six-year-old Christianity and knock it down go for it. I'm not sure what you are gaining by it. |
Okay......and the folks who believe some of the dogma out of fear of damnation, and despite facts, logic, and reason to the contrary are different than six-year-olds how? |
Exactly. |
Does that mean we win? |
Only against the six-year-old JV team... ;) |
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02/21/2012 05:14:03 PM · #1648 |
Loving God was first, but is meaningless with out loving your neighbor as yourself- he just said that first part to quell the hecklers. In fact, he said love your enemy. Thats a tough concept to get our heads around. Easier to stick to self- salvation in the context of a possession based capitalist society.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, âDonât do it!â
He said, âNobody loves me.â
I said, âGod loves you. Do you believe in God?â
He said, âYes.â
I said, âAre you a Christian or a Jew?â
He said, âA Christian.â
I said, âMe, too! Protestant or Catholic?â
He said, âProtestant.â
I said, âMe, too! What denomination?â
He said, âBaptist.â
I said, âMe, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?â
He said, âNorthern Baptist.â
I said, âMe, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?â
He said, âNorthern Conservative Baptist.â
I said, âMe, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?â
He said, âNorthern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.â
I said, âMe, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?â
He said, âNorthern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.â
I said, âDie, heretic!â And I pushed him over.
-EPhilips
Message edited by author 2012-02-21 17:18:00. |
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02/21/2012 05:41:25 PM · #1649 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Loving God was first, but is meaningless with out loving your neighbor as yourself |
You see, I would turn that around personally, but I understand where you are coming from. If you don't believe God exists it is clearly going to be secondary to the other, eh?
Just citing the passage:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, âOf all the commandments, which is the most important?â
âThe most important one,â answered Jesus, âis this: âHear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.â The second is this: âLove your neighbor as yourself.â There is no commandment greater than these.â
âWell said, teacher,â the man replied. âYou are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.â
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, âYou are not far from the kingdom of God.â And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
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02/21/2012 05:49:44 PM · #1650 |
| its exactly the opposite. If God exists, I don't believe you have to choose. The first is assumed, its easy. The loving your neighbor part is the tough part, is it not. Thats why its easy to be a murdering philandering junkie your whole life and say at the end-"all I need to do is believe and I am saved." |
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