?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

03/01/2011 01:22:08 AM · #1377

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I've heard your position on this before and I think those numbers are quite wrong. We can see from Africa, for example, that this doesn't bear up. In 1900 there were 9 million Christians on the African continent. In 2000 there were 380 million. (source wiki). That is not all being passed down from parent to child. The estimated population of Africa increased about sixfold (133 million to 767 million (source wiki)) while the Christian population multiplied 42-fold. On the other side, "no religion" has risen in America from 14.3 million in 1990 to 34.2 million in 2008. That isn't because atheists have lots of babies.

The numbers just do not support your assertion unless you have something to counter with.

spiritualspatula

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03/01/2011 01:57:44 AM · #1378

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
But that's the kid's summation, not your declared non-reasoning. It's short for "My dad says so, but I don't want to take the time to explain it all the reasons to you right now -- go talk to him if you want more details."

I'm going to estimate that at least 90% of Christans had Christian parents, and that likewise 90% of Jews had Jewish parents and that 90% of Muslims were bore to Islamic parents and that 90% of Hindus have Hindu parents ....

But that's all just coincidence, right?

I've heard your position on this before and I think those numbers are quite wrong. We can see from Africa, for example, that this doesn't bear up. In 1900 there were 9 million Christians on the African continent. In 2000 there were 380 million. (source wiki). That is not all being passed down from parent to child. The estimated population of Africa increased about sixfold (133 million to 767 million (source wiki)) while the Christian population multiplied 42-fold. On the other side, "no religion" has risen in America from 14.3 million in 1990 to 34.2 million in 2008. That isn't because atheists have lots of babies.

The numbers just do not support your assertion unless you have something to counter with.

This is a silly counterargument Doc. The presence of missionaries in Africa is well known and clearly the cause. How can parents teach something they aren't even aware of? And as for atheism or a general apathy for or even relaxation of religious doctrine in society at large, that has been a growing trend since the Dark Ages, present in society as a whole as a result of the increasing prevalence of science and ability for it to answer unknown questions previously left to the miracle or magic category.
And to attempt to dispute the tendency for tradition (religion being a part) to be passed to each subsequent generation is silly at best to begin with...it only falters in the face of something else more convincing (like the introduction of Christianity to Africans instead of animistic/shamanistic tradition).

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

03/01/2011 02:13:44 AM · #1379

I'm merely countering that the number is 90%, not that passing ones worldview on to future generations doesn't happen.

spiritualspatula

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/01/2011 02:55:55 AM · #1380

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm merely countering that the number is 90%, not that passing ones worldview on to future generations doesn't happen.

Fair enough, but indoctrination needn't be highly successful to still be indoctrination. It doesn't really change anything. Further, it would still be possible to argue that a significant portion of religious adherents pursue an approach housed in indoctrination while those who do not account for the "less than perfect" numbers. I'm not making this a point of argument, but the numbers would not dispute such a thing.

Bear_Music

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03/01/2011 08:31:36 AM · #1381

Regarding "doctrine", and "indoctrination" with same, the correct parallel with "religion" wouldn't be "science" â�� it would more likely be, say, "democracy". Or "communism". Chew on that one a while; when's the last time you heard someone being referred to as a "doctrinaire democrat"? (This by way of supporting the thesis that most folk seem to use "indoctrinated" to mean "schooled in the wrong ideology".

R.

Apple iPhone 5

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03/19/2011 06:31:04 PM · #1382

I'm attending a christening (baptism) tomorrow - of course, in Ireland it's really about the party afterwards. And being Catholics it means the person being christened is a 6-month-old baby.

Anyway, this got my 5 year old son asking questions about his christening, which of course he can't remember.

He asked "Does everyone get christened?" My reply: "No, only christians - people who believe in Jesus"

Next: "Well, how did the priest know I believed in Jesus? I was only a baby"

Now, that's a very good question.

03/20/2011 07:42:17 PM · #1383

Originally posted by JH:

I'm not the doc, but I am a Catholic. Colossians 2:11-12 speaks about the circumcision of Christ being baptism. Baptism takes the place of circumcision. Infact, one of the early arguments in the church was when to baptize infants. When a baby was born or on the 8th day (Jewish infants were circumcised on the 8th day).

Your parents accepted Christ and promised to raise you in the faith. You receive the graces that go along with baptism and the faith of your parents.

03/20/2011 08:36:52 PM · #1384

Originally posted by Nullix:

None of which addresses the baby's belief in Jesus... unless you're finally acknowledging indoctrination.

03/20/2011 09:37:19 PM · #1385

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm not the doc, but I am a Catholic. Colossians 2:11-12 speaks about the circumcision of Christ being baptism. Baptism takes the place of circumcision. Infact, one of the early arguments in the church was when to baptize infants. When a baby was born or on the 8th day (Jewish infants were circumcised on the 8th day).

Your parents accepted Christ and promised to raise you in the faith. You receive the graces that go along with baptism and the faith of your parents.

None of which addresses the baby's belief in Jesus... unless you're finally acknowledging indoctrination.

Sorry, when did I refute indoctrination? Maybe I missed that in the noise.

Of course a baby has no belief in Jesus; a baby doesn't believe anything except for a parent's love. Is love in God required for baptism? If so, how can baby be baptized? Was a belief in God required of an 8 day old Jew for circumcision?

03/20/2011 09:53:06 PM · #1386

Originally posted by Nullix:

Of course a baby has no belief in Jesus; a baby doesn't believe anything except for a parent's love. Is love in God required for baptism? If so, how can baby be baptized? Was a belief in God required of an 8 day old Jew for circumcision?

That was the very question JH asked. Your response didn't address the question.

03/20/2011 10:28:46 PM · #1387

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Of course a baby has no belief in Jesus; a baby doesn't believe anything except for a parent's love. Is love in God required for baptism? If so, how can baby be baptized? Was a belief in God required of an 8 day old Jew for circumcision?

That was the very question JH asked. Your response didn't address the question.

Oops, my mistake. I didn't think I had to spell it out.

Originally posted by JH's 5 year old son:

Well, how did the priest know I believed in Jesus?

The priest doesn't know. He doesn't need to know to baptize you, just that your parents believe and promise to raise you Catholic.

03/20/2011 10:43:56 PM · #1388

Originally posted by Nullix:

So it would follow that if you died right after that you would go straignt to heaven right..........so much for informed choice I guess.

Ray

03/20/2011 10:54:22 PM · #1389

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm not the doc, but I am a Catholic. Colossians 2:11-12 speaks about the circumcision of Christ being baptism. Baptism takes the place of circumcision. Infact, one of the early arguments in the church was when to baptize infants. When a baby was born or on the 8th day (Jewish infants were circumcised on the 8th day).

Your parents accepted Christ and promised to raise you in the faith. You receive the graces that go along with baptism and the faith of your parents.

So it would follow that if you died right after that you would go straignt to heaven right..........so much for informed choice I guess.

Ray

Yes, straight to heaven. I'm sure if you didn't want to God would allow you not to choose heaven. This would involve a choice and reasoning which I don't think children have until the age of reason.

03/20/2011 11:32:16 PM · #1390

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm not the doc, but I am a Catholic. Colossians 2:11-12 speaks about the circumcision of Christ being baptism. Baptism takes the place of circumcision. Infact, one of the early arguments in the church was when to baptize infants. When a baby was born or on the 8th day (Jewish infants were circumcised on the 8th day).

Your parents accepted Christ and promised to raise you in the faith. You receive the graces that go along with baptism and the faith of your parents.

So it would follow that if you died right after that you would go straignt to heaven right..........so much for informed choice I guess.

Ray

Yes, straight to heaven. I'm sure if you didn't want to God would allow you not to choose heaven. This would involve a choice and reasoning which I don't think children have until the age of reason.

OK then... so why would you force something on a poor unsuspecting child. What if you are wrong... you could be ya know... billions of others can't all be wrong about their beliefs.

What about all the poor shmucks that never heard of your saviour, those that came before his arrival, the believers of all other faiths... are they all going to hell?

Ray

03/21/2011 01:02:45 AM · #1391

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm not the doc, but I am a Catholic. Colossians 2:11-12 speaks about the circumcision of Christ being baptism. Baptism takes the place of circumcision. Infact, one of the early arguments in the church was when to baptize infants. When a baby was born or on the 8th day (Jewish infants were circumcised on the 8th day).

Your parents accepted Christ and promised to raise you in the faith. You receive the graces that go along with baptism and the faith of your parents.

So it would follow that if you died right after that you would go straignt to heaven right..........so much for informed choice I guess.

Ray

Yes, straight to heaven. I'm sure if you didn't want to God would allow you not to choose heaven. This would involve a choice and reasoning which I don't think children have until the age of reason.

OK then... so why would you force something on a poor unsuspecting child. What if you are wrong... you could be ya know... billions of others can't all be wrong about their beliefs.

What about all the poor shmucks that never heard of your saviour, those that came before his arrival, the believers of all other faiths... are they all going to hell?

Ray

Well, I do force plenty of things on my children. They're my children. You got a problem with that, get your own children to force things on. Otherwise, don't have children.

I have no clue if others are going to hell. I can make some educated guesses, but what's the point? I usually only worry about my family, friends, and the people I know.

03/21/2011 01:17:00 AM · #1392

Originally posted by Nullix:

Well, I do force plenty of things on my children. They're my children. You got a problem with that, get your own children to force things on. Otherwise, don't have children.

DrAchoo has a problem with that. He has consistency objected to any suggestion of religious indoctrination. What you're saying apparently doesn't happen in his world... or at least that what he's been taught to think. ;-)

03/21/2011 05:28:45 AM · #1393

Originally posted by Nullix:

Well, I do force plenty of things on my children. They're my children. You got a problem with that, get your own children to force things on. Otherwise, don't have children.

Oh but I do have children... and I never "Forced" anything on them...least of all religion.

It may shock you to learn that they fit in quite well in today's society and are quite normal too. (okay maybe not by your standards... they don't have that religious bigotry thing about them)

Ray

Message edited by author 2011-03-21 05:32:50.

03/21/2011 08:46:08 AM · #1394

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Well, I do force plenty of things on my children. They're my children. You got a problem with that, get your own children to force things on. Otherwise, don't have children.

Oh but I do have children... and I never "Forced" anything on them...least of all religion.

It may shock you to learn that they fit in quite well in today's society and are quite normal too. (okay maybe not by your standards... they don't have that religious bigotry thing about them)

Ray

So you've never forced them to:

1. Wake up
2. Brush their teeth
3. Go to school
4. Sit nicely at the dinner table
5. Use the word, "Please" when asking for something
6. Say, "Thank You" when you get something
7. Apologize when you hurt someone

I am pretty shocked your children are socially acceptable. How did you do that? I'm still having a problem with my youngest not using "Please" when he asks for something.

03/21/2011 08:56:18 AM · #1395

So religion is just etiquette and hygiene? Yes sir, no sir, take a bath... and pay homage to the invisible sky god of the ancients.

03/21/2011 05:52:06 PM · #1396

Originally posted by Nullix:

I am pretty shocked your children are socially acceptable. How did you do that? I'm still having a problem with my youngest not using "Please" when he asks for something.

All of the things you allude to can and have been achieved without the use of any form of "Force" and which surprisingly have squat to do with baptism.

If you have a problem with your child then it follows that your ability to educate is lacking... but that is your problem not mine. (Sorry if I hurt your feelings)

Have a great day. :O)

Ray

Message edited by author 2011-03-22 17:57:39.

03/22/2011 11:27:25 PM · #1397

I'm sure I need more education. It always helps. No hurt feelings.

How about another question for the Doc.

I was watching a show with my wife and one of the characters crossed himself while visiting a baptist church. I said to my wife, "Oh neat, his character is Catholic." And my wife asked, "why do you say that, do only Catholics cross themselves?"

I thought so, but I've never asked. I've been to other Christian services and I don't remember them doing it, so I thought it was a Catholic only thing. Do non-Catholic Christians use the sign of the cross?

03/22/2011 11:37:17 PM · #1398

I have known Anglicans and Lutherans that do this, but have no idea as to whether or not it is a mandatory thing as it was in the Catholic church when I was young. Even in the Catholic church the ritual differs from the Roman Catholics to the Orthodox churches.

As a youth, I remember that one had to do the sign of the cross whenever one walked by a church and recite in latin "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen".

It seems that later on one could recite that prayer in either French or English, depending on one's preference.

Ray

Message edited by author 2011-03-22 23:38:06.

03/27/2011 01:50:24 PM · #1399

Originally posted by RayEthier:

As a youth, I remember that one had to do the sign of the cross whenever one walked by a church and recite in latin "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen".

We don't use latin anymore unless you attend a Tridenttine Mass. It's also not necessary to do the sign of the cross when passing by a church. Sounds like a tradition held by some. Like when ever I hear an ambulance siren, I say a prayer.

Matthew