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12/03/2008 02:15:04 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Give ford 25 billion. Let them buy toyota or honda with it. |
or maybe let toyota or honda buy ford, hehe (sorry couldn't resist) |
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12/03/2008 02:43:22 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Give ford 25 billion. Let them buy toyota or honda with it. |
or maybe let toyota or honda buy ford, hehe (sorry couldn't resist) |
hehe ... NOT funny... apparently you don't live in Detroit ... |
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12/03/2008 03:13:14 AM · #28 |
So what will they do with that money? Make more cars that nobody wants to buy?
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12/03/2008 03:59:55 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Give ford 25 billion. Let them buy toyota or honda with it. |
or maybe let toyota or honda buy ford, hehe (sorry couldn't resist) |
hehe ... NOT funny... apparently you don't live in Detroit ... |
what's with Detroit and Ford/Honda/Toyota?
i honestly dont know! |
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12/03/2008 07:33:22 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
No don't. At least with Toyota or Honda as they are you can get a reliable car. If you let Ford have them there will be no more reliable cars, except maybe the Focus. |
That attitude is why the american car companies are not doing well. I drive american and worked in toyota and nissan car dealerships. They're all about the same, quality wise. Over the past couple of years GM has topped toyota even!
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12/03/2008 07:40:19 AM · #31 |
It's not 'fair' that when Mercedes, TOyota, HOnda, nissan and such build factories in teh US they can hire labor that is non-union, pay them less and give a lot less in benefits than the D3.
While its not a nice idea to see what would happen if GM declares bankruptcy it might allow them to dump the unions and compete on an equal footing.
Or can we blame the UAW for not unionizing the factories of foreign car companies?
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12/03/2008 09:02:01 AM · #32 |
The Japanese are non-union because the unions are a huge problem. If union workers are paid so much better and have better benefits...Why would these plants remain non-union!? That's because the foreign manufacturer's treat their employees better! The Japanese plants hold an employee vote (held by the UAW) to decide if they want to unionize or not. It is rejected by the workers EVERY time!
The UAW has grown too large. Sure, their purpose is clear and were definitely established to prevent Ford from taking advantage of his workers. Unfortunately, the Management of the UAW has grown too greedy. They force excessive benefits and allow for UAW workers to get paid more for less work.
It's not fair to complain about foreign manufacturers when they decide to build plants INSIDE our country and employ our citizens! They could just continue to build cars outside the US...that would really benefit us! They could have easily built their plants in Mexico...oh wait that's what the D3 have been doing!
The UAW and Michigan government blocked Toyota and VW from buying closed plants from FORD and starting production here for the sole reason that it did not require a unionized work force. So now these plants are just sitting there looking nasty and just adding to the depressed look of Detroit. Why would it have been so wrong to allow these plants to run non-union?
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 18:15:37. |
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12/03/2008 09:12:04 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'd wager that any of the CEO's and executives at any of the D3 are making far less than their counterparts at any of the banks that built the financial house of cards that has caused this economic disaster and they're asking for far less help in terms of dollars with more at stake. |
I completely agree about those bookies financial CEOs and all that -- I was merely pointing out that our Representatives in Congress are not being paid an exhorbitantly high amount by today's standards compared to others with "similar managerial responsibilities." |
Yet I doubt that Ms. Pelosi, or many of the members of Congress face the financial difficulties the average American faces every day. |
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12/03/2008 09:25:37 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
... GM needs 4 billion by xmas in order to stay in business ... if they don't get the loan by the end of the year, they go belly up ... they're looking to dump Pontiac, Saaab, Saturn and a few other brands ... |
Saturn built a large facility near Columbia, TN back in the early 90's (I used to cover that territory)...is that still up and running? Could be a major impact to that area and surrounding communities for sure. |
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12/03/2008 09:29:45 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
... GM needs 4 billion by xmas in order to stay in business ... if they don't get the loan by the end of the year, they go belly up ... they're looking to dump Pontiac, Saaab, Saturn and a few other brands ... |
Saturn built a large facility near Columbia, TN back in the early 90's (I used to cover that territory)...is that still up and running? Could be a major impact to that area and surrounding communities for sure. |
honestly, I don't know if that plant is still in operation or not ... the word in and on the news around Detroit is that they're going to just quit making Pontiac's like they did with Olds ... I think Saturn is up for sale, potentially ... |
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12/03/2008 09:41:24 AM · #36 |
Who made the most money last year???? The oil companies. Record profits!!! I say since their greed caused this mess we're in, have them bail out the auto makers! They can surely afford to!
-danny |
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12/03/2008 09:44:24 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Who made the most money last year???? The oil companies. Record profits!!! I say since their greed caused this mess we're in, have them bail out the auto makers! They can surely afford to!
-danny |
Ha! True.
I would personally like cars to turn all electric. I bet it's feasible, just being stopped by oil companies, car manufacturers, it's just sad to see that innovation is being choked.
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12/03/2008 09:45:32 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
...While its not a nice idea to see what would happen if GM declares bankruptcy it might allow them to dump the unions and compete on an equal footing... |
Actually, if GM were to declare bankruptcy under chapter 11, it's far more likely that they would be unable to restructure successfully and instead wind up being auctioned off, bit by bit, under chapter 7.
The unions are going to have to give some things up too |
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12/03/2008 09:48:49 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
...While its not a nice idea to see what would happen if GM declares bankruptcy it might allow them to dump the unions and compete on an equal footing... |
Actually, if GM were to declare bankruptcy under chapter 11, it's far more likely that they would be unable to restructure successfully and instead wind up being auctioned off, bit by bit, under chapter 7.
The unions are going to have to give some things up too |
agreed that the unions will have to make some sacrifices ... right now it's either do that or risk losing their jobs completely ... I think it's safe to say that most people out there would rather give up some of the benefits or take a pay cut to save their job rather than do nothing and have no job to support the family with ... |
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12/03/2008 11:10:55 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'd wager that any of the CEO's and executives at any of the D3 are making far less than their counterparts at any of the banks that built the financial house of cards that has caused this economic disaster and they're asking for far less help in terms of dollars with more at stake. |
I completely agree about those bookies financial CEOs and all that -- I was merely pointing out that our Representatives in Congress are not being paid an exhorbitantly high amount by today's standards compared to others with "similar managerial responsibilities." |
I knew they were "only" getting somewhere in the $200,000 range, but if you add them all up, it's $116 million a year. That's not chump change. Still the point is to reveal congress has been losing money hand over fist so I doubt they are the most credible to cast dispersion at a company not doing well.
And for those who talk about losing 1-3 million jobs, I think that's spin. It's not like a) the big 3 are going to just fold up over a weekend, b) it's not like the demand for cars is going to drop by exactly the amount the big 3 put out which means the other car companies, many who build in the US will pick up whatever slack there is preserving some of the jobs.
1-3 million is just doomsaying. I'm not saying there won't be jobs lost and I'm not even saying a bailout is not in order, but I like it when our politicians and talking heads make honest arguments instead of spouting spin. |
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12/03/2008 11:19:41 AM · #41 |
Employees
Ford 246,000
GM 252,000
Chrysler 129,000 |
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12/03/2008 11:25:26 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Employees
Ford 246,000
GM 252,000
Chrysler 129,000 |
so let's talk about the auto suppliers also and the jobs that would potentially be lost there .... and since were talking about jobs lost, let's also consider all of people in a 'supporting cast' type of role ... like the restaurants and other small businesses that operate near the factories and headquarters ... those small businesses rely heavily, if not almost completely on the Big 3 ... if the auto industry dries up, the trickle down effect that will happen to the rest of the country will be devastating ... |
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12/03/2008 11:30:25 AM · #43 |
The reason the auto industry is hurting, IMO, is the lack of innovation. It really needs to move forward, I realize that yes, jobs are at stake, but something has to change.
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12/03/2008 11:34:21 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Employees
Ford 246,000
GM 252,000
Chrysler 129,000 |
That's only the people directly employed by the auto industry, still over 600K people.
Add in all of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers that supply those three companies, because they will go away too and, collectively, they employ even more people than the D3. Even that doesn't include the service sector businesses that do significant business with the D3, that might not go under, but will certainly lose business and probably jobs as well if they don't fold completely.
The domestic production demands of the foreign manufacturers simply won't sustain those Tier 1 and 2 suppliers, nor many of the service businesses. |
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12/03/2008 11:40:12 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by goinskiing:
The reason the auto industry is hurting, IMO, is the lack of innovation. It really needs to move forward, I realize that yes, jobs are at stake, but something has to change. |
Despite the domestic focus on Trucks and SUVs, which have greatly improved through innovation at the D3, the D3 have been innovative, especially Ford. Everyone knows about the Focus as being an economical vehicle, but did you know that Ford also sells, in Europe, a 68mpg Fiesta. That's better mileage than the Prius, or any other hybrid save the 2 seat Honda Insight.
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12/03/2008 11:43:39 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Employees
Ford 246,000
GM 252,000
Chrysler 129,000 |
so let's talk about the auto suppliers also and the jobs that would potentially be lost there .... and since were talking about jobs lost, let's also consider all of people in a 'supporting cast' type of role ... like the restaurants and other small businesses that operate near the factories and headquarters ... those small businesses rely heavily, if not almost completely on the Big 3 ... if the auto industry dries up, the trickle down effect that will happen to the rest of the country will be devastating ... |
I agree absolutely! You too Spaz...
I figured this argument/point would be made. Nothing against you personally Doc, but I think the "doomsaying" and "talking heads" are close on this one. 1 million jobs is a certain reality and up to 3 million isn't out of the question either. The automotive industry reaches into many places with all of the support, etc... |
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12/03/2008 11:44:02 AM · #47 |
The oil companies should bail them out.
That's the reason gas prices are down, Big Oil is scared of Detroit and their SUVs and Trucks no longer being bought to suck their product which will end their record breaking profits run. |
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12/03/2008 11:44:20 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by goinskiing:
The reason the auto industry is hurting, IMO, is the lack of innovation. It really needs to move forward, I realize that yes, jobs are at stake, but something has to change. |
Despite the domestic focus on Trucks and SUVs, which have greatly improved through innovation at the D3, the D3 have been innovative, especially Ford. Everyone knows about the Focus as being an economical vehicle, but did you know that Ford also sells, in Europe, a 68mpg Fiesta. That's better mileage than the Prius, or any other hybrid save the 2 seat Honda Insight. |
I guess I just don't understand why we don't see them here in the states? Are we just not good consumers? Still, I don't claim to be an expert, it just seems like there's something amiss. I do know several families and friends that would be affected if the D3 aren't bailed out and that is never a peasant thought. Even though I don't like jobs being lost, sometimes these kind of things can have unseen positive effects.
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12/03/2008 11:49:48 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by goinskiing:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by goinskiing:
The reason the auto industry is hurting, IMO, is the lack of innovation. It really needs to move forward, I realize that yes, jobs are at stake, but something has to change. |
Despite the domestic focus on Trucks and SUVs, which have greatly improved through innovation at the D3, the D3 have been innovative, especially Ford. Everyone knows about the Focus as being an economical vehicle, but did you know that Ford also sells, in Europe, a 68mpg Fiesta. That's better mileage than the Prius, or any other hybrid save the 2 seat Honda Insight. |
I guess I just don't understand why we don't see them here in the states? Are we just not good consumers? Still, I don't claim to be an expert, it just seems like there's something amiss. I do know several families and friends that would be affected if the D3 aren't bailed out and that is never a peasant thought. Even though I don't like jobs being lost, sometimes these kind of things can have unseen positive effects. |
From Wiki...
The model will not be available in the United States because, as Business Week noted, the company "doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic" and doesn't think it would sell enough of the model (350,000/year) to justify the $350 million in upgrades required at their Mexico plant in order to justify its manufacture in North America.[11]
Another problem the Ford Fiesta ECOnetic shares with other Diesel cars in the US is Diesel cost - 50% higher than gasoline as of Nov 2008.
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12/03/2008 11:54:13 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by goinskiing:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by goinskiing:
The reason the auto industry is hurting, IMO, is the lack of innovation. It really needs to move forward, I realize that yes, jobs are at stake, but something has to change. |
Despite the domestic focus on Trucks and SUVs, which have greatly improved through innovation at the D3, the D3 have been innovative, especially Ford. Everyone knows about the Focus as being an economical vehicle, but did you know that Ford also sells, in Europe, a 68mpg Fiesta. That's better mileage than the Prius, or any other hybrid save the 2 seat Honda Insight. |
I guess I just don't understand why we don't see them here in the states? Are we just not good consumers? Still, I don't claim to be an expert, it just seems like there's something amiss. I do know several families and friends that would be affected if the D3 aren't bailed out and that is never a peasant thought. Even though I don't like jobs being lost, sometimes these kind of things can have unseen positive effects. |
We dont see them here because of federal emission restrictions here that arent in place in Europe. Its not that they dont want to sell them, its cost prohibitive to sell them here while meeting the restriction.
I work for Ford Motor Company and have for the past 14 years. I recently posted my thoughts about this bailout on the private Ford Forums and was reprimanded for doing so. :D
I think the exec. make way too much money and receive way too many bonuses for running a business as poorly as they do. I say if the govt. helps them out in any way its with the stipulation that wholesale changes are made to upper management and the way they do business.
No one is going to bail my business out if I fail.......I'll just be living off your tax dollars.
Matt
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