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09/19/2008 08:52:24 AM · #176 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Genocide occurs when one group convinces itself that another group is less than human. Religion can be used to make such distinctions, but recent cases seem to be driven by Nationalism... |
Excellent post. |
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09/19/2008 09:09:43 AM · #177 |
Below is a NY Times blog entry on Palin. It turns out she does have experience after all!
//egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/moo/?em |
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09/19/2008 09:17:23 AM · #178 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Government did have their hand in all of this...starting with trying to make loans available to minorities and low-income families, originally going back 30 years or so. It never did work all that well (for making money), then in 1995 (how did that slip past Clinton anyway?) it appears to have started a trend that would escalate.
Interesting read --> How the Subprime Mortgage Mess Began |
I did read it. The key moment is here:
Then a 1995 amendment to the CRA permitted securitization of these loans. This changed everything. The bond market could now be tapped to fund CRA loans. Investment bankers very profitably packaged CRA mortgages for bond buyers. As incredible as it now seems, these bonds were rated AAA, making this new source of mortgage funds very inexpensive and âOKâ to buy by public and pension funds restricted by law to top rated bonds and other investment funds that shunned low rated bonds.
In no way does this 1995 amendment logically follow from giving mortgages to minorities. The problem begins in 1995, plain and simple. Nice try at putting the blame on minorities and affirmative action, though! That's quite a spin.
I will concede the anti-Clinton points, though. It was one of his many right-wing moments. I voted for Nader in 96. |
??? I did mention 1995 and stated that's when "it appears to have started a trend that would escalate". It went from the original intention of providing easy access loans to those that needed help to becoming something entirely different (and unfortunately quite popular).
However, prior to 1995 the program was not a great deal for business either as there was a high rate of loan failures then. |
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09/19/2008 09:34:59 AM · #179 |
"Alaskans will get $231 per person in federal earmarks â 10 times more than people in Barack Obamaâs home state. Thatâs this year, with Palin as governor."
Great article. It briefly mentions Palin's super-soft interview with Sean Hannity of Fox News, which John Stewart referenced as "Hannitized for your protection." LOL
PS: Is Palin planning to debate Biden at any time?
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 09:43:17. |
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09/19/2008 10:02:48 AM · #180 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by dahkota:
I do believe, however, that most genocide today is brought on by religious differences, as it seems has most always been the case. |
Genocide occurs when one group convinces itself that another group is less than human. Religion can be used to make such distinctions, but recent cases seem to be driven by Nationalism. When Hutus slaughtered Tutsis, it was tribalism/nationalism. |
The distinction between the two was brought about by the Catholic Church and the empire building country of Belgium. Its easier to control people who are angry at each other rather than the true cause of their problems.
Originally posted by posthumous:
The genocide in the Sudan also seems to be based on tribalism/nationalism. |
The end of British control over the state (again, empire building)led Southern Sudan to fear control by Northern Sudan. Britain had promoted the separation of the North (muslim) from the South (christian) to ensure instability - easier to control. This is what started the initial conflict that evolved into war and genocide.
Originally posted by posthumous:
The very term "ethnic cleansing" suggests nationalism is involved. The Holocaust was also based on nationalism. Almost as many non-Jews were killed as Jews, the purpose being to promote a certain German/Aryan ideal. The Nazis were certainly not religious. |
The holocaust began against the Jews and grew into the killing of many other groups. Once Hitler figured out he could get away with it, he expanded it. Hitler was a Christian and had some radical ideas with regard to Jesus and Jews. However, I do not believe the holocaust was completely motivated by religious ideology; I believe Jews were a scapegoat for perceived class issues.
Originally posted by posthumous:
I have to go back to colonialism, the genocide of Native Americans and Australian Aborigines, before I see religion as a possible culprit. But even there, I suspect it had more to do with empire building than religion. Religion is part of it, though, part of the process of shaping minds to believe that they are inherently better than other people. The interesting thing, though, is that religion is part of the solution as well. Think about the "Red Cross" and the "Red Crescent." Think about the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa. |
I agree with you here in that it was Empire Building rather than religion (as I stated).
Often, ethnicity and religion go hand in hand and it is difficult to separate the two. Colonists wanted to 'christianize' the indians. If they had been christian, or white, would they have been treated the same? If you look at most instances of colonization, a 'white' country attempted to overpower a 'non-white' country. Was this done solely because of skin color? Who knows.
It seems people often enjoy an 'us vs. them' state of affairs. When things are particularly in the toilet, it must be 'their fault' as 'we' are doing everything right. Who are they? Who are we? Depends on the day, the way the wind is blowing, the color of your hair, how many easy chairs you own. Democrats and Republicans right now are engaging in the same and its getting pretty gross. I'm waiting for the violence to start... Our president promotes this 'us vs. them' mentality when he talks about our christian country taking on the islamic terrorists. It is just more of the same song and dance this country has been engaged in for years. Its not 'our' fault our country is crap shape right now. Its theirs. I haven't figured out who they are yet. |
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09/19/2008 11:14:19 AM · #181 |
Originally posted by citymars:
"Alaskans will get $231 per person in federal earmarks â 10 times more than people in Barack Obamaâs home state. Thatâs this year, with Palin as governor."
Great article. It briefly mentions Palin's super-soft interview with Sean Hannity of Fox News, which John Stewart referenced as "Hannitized for your protection." LOL
PS: Is Palin planning to debate Biden at any time? |
Also, keep in mind that Alaska has no income tax and, in fact, generates so much revenue from gas and oil that Palin paid ~$1200 to each citizen...
With that much money, they could have refused all earmarks, paid for those projects out of their own pocket AND still given each Alaskan nearly $1000. Must be nice to have so much money.
P.S. Yes, there will be one Biden/Palin debate.
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09/19/2008 11:17:29 AM · #182 |
Ooh, I can't wait until the 'Right' and 'the media' set the odds for these debates. The Republicans will be seeded lower (just as Bush was against Kerry), as to lower expectations, and therefor try to make the debates less significant in meaning. Personally, I don't see them changing much unfortunately.
Does anyone remember this?:
Photography related controversy during another debate
Originally posted by citymars:
PS: Is Palin planning to debate Biden at any time? |
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09/19/2008 11:25:08 AM · #183 |
Are they going to be checking Palin for bulges? |
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09/19/2008 11:29:46 AM · #184 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
The holocaust began against the Jews and grew into the killing of many other groups. Once Hitler figured out he could get away with it, he expanded it. Hitler was a Christian and had some radical ideas with regard to Jesus and Jews. However, I do not believe the holocaust was completely motivated by religious ideology; I believe Jews were a scapegoat for perceived class issues. |
We have to remember "Jews" can mean ethnicity as much as religion. They were targeted by the Nazis because of the misguided scientific/sociologic principle of eugenics. Building a more pure and superior Aryan nation was the ultimate goal of the Nazis, not something like punishing the Jews for killing their savior. The including of mentally handicapped, gypsies, etc. in the holocaust makes sense if you look at it from this viewpoint.
It's been talked about in other threads, and we don't need to completely hijack this one, but I'd strongly disagree that religion is at the root of most modern genocides. Rwanda, the quickest and largest genocide since the holocaust, was purely a matter of "us" versus "them" and the fact that one group (the Hutus) had been kept down by the other group (the Tutsis) with the help of colonial money and influence. Read An Ordinary Man by Paul Rusesabagina for a fascinating first person account of how us/them can almost overnight turn ordinary people into murderers.
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 11:32:29. |
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09/19/2008 11:51:51 AM · #185 |
I think she's been fully vetted in that regard =P
Originally posted by posthumous:
Are they going to be checking Palin for bulges? |
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09/19/2008 12:08:32 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's been talked about in other threads, and we don't need to completely hijack this one, but I'd strongly disagree that religion is at the root of most modern genocides. Rwanda, the quickest and largest genocide since the holocaust, was purely a matter of "us" versus "them" and the fact that one group (the Hutus) had been kept down by the other group (the Tutsis) with the help of colonial money and influence. Read An Ordinary Man by Paul Rusesabagina for a fascinating first person account of how us/them can almost overnight turn ordinary people into murderers. |
I strongly agree.
Two other recommendations along this same vein, Samantha Power's Pulitzer Prize winning A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide and Philip Gourevitch's We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families: Stories from Rwanda.
On a side note, DrAchoo, I have an autographed copy of An Ordinary Man: An Autobiography when I went to hear Paul Rusesabagina (and shook his hand) two years ago. I had been familiar with his story from reading "We Wish to Inform You ..." about a year before the movie "Hotel Rwanda" came out.
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 12:10:03. |
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09/19/2008 12:17:48 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by yanko:
I don't know. When I look at the world today and what has occurred throughout history from slavery to current day genocides, I have a hard time believing people are generally good. Yes people can be good especially when it includes a possible benefit to themselves or to their immediate tribe (i.e. friends, family, etc.) but when that's not the case I just don't see it. People in general don't care about what's going on in African but they do care about what's going on in Iraq because it is effecting their wallets. Same goes for just about any other issue. Granted there are exceptions but generally speaking we only care when it effects us. |
Maybe its just the people you are surrounded by. I work at a large university near a large city, all of it with a strong liberal stance. What's going on in the rest of the world is extremely important and the subject of numerous conversations daily. At least 20% of the people I know are either first generation citizens or foreign nationals. |
Well I wasn't talking about having conversations but real action. Regardless, I agree places like a unversity is going to have more people caring about the world (since they are about to venture into it) but I still content in general people only care if it effects them in some way. If it doesn't hit your wallets or you don't go there in person to see the horrors first hand or not starting out in life and want the world to be better for your generation then you are less likely to care. It is not until there is some connection to the situation when caring kicks in. That farmer you speak of fits perfectly into that world view. He is isolated from a great number of things and therefore is not going to care what happens in far away lands or in nearby cities unless of course it effects his city, his property, his tribe.
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 12:27:33.
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09/19/2008 12:29:45 PM · #188 |
You're driving me crazy Richard. You want to be using "affects" not "effects". ;P
Interestingly, that Haidt guy that I linked above with the 19 minute video will contend that the two basic morality foundations of fairness/reciprocity and caring/harm are universal and equally valued among liberals and conservatives. Only authority, tribalism (don't remember the exact term for this one), and purity are viewed differently between the two groups.
We all want fairness. Not just left-wing, bleeding-heart liberals. ;) |
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09/19/2008 12:46:55 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Only authority, tribalism (don't remember the exact term for this one) |
Ingroup/loyalty. |
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09/19/2008 12:58:47 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Only authority, tribalism (don't remember the exact term for this one) |
Ingroup/loyalty. |
Thanks Louis! That's the ticket. |
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09/19/2008 01:04:06 PM · #191 |
| That was a fantastic lecture. Thanks for posting... I'm sending it out to anyone who'll listen. |
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09/19/2008 01:44:14 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by Louis:
That was a fantastic lecture. Thanks for posting... I'm sending it out to anyone who'll listen. |
Don't let them know you heard it from me...you'll lose street cred. ;) |
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09/19/2008 01:55:47 PM · #193 |
| I thought this web community was a bit more enlightened, educated. |
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09/19/2008 02:16:01 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by citymars:
PS: Is Palin planning to debate Biden at any time? |
I believe that it is scheduled for October 2nd. |
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09/19/2008 02:21:16 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by citymars:
PS: Is Palin planning to debate Biden at any time? |
I believe that it is scheduled for October 2nd. |
In all honesty and attempted unbiasedness, that's the day I think the shoe is going to drop. The handlers have done their best to keep Palin away from the uncontrolled media, but there will be no ability to do this during the debate. I'm sure she will answer 95% of the questions just fine with party line talking points (Biden will do the same), BUT there will be those 1-3 questions where she falters and for a moment we see the man behind the curtain. The media will naturally pounce on it and that will be the end. Basically a Dan Quayle moment with nylons. |
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09/19/2008 02:24:37 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The media will naturally pounce on it and that will be the end. Basically a Dan Quayle moment with nylons. |
Um... Quayle won that election... |
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09/19/2008 02:25:33 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... there will be those 1-3 questions where she falters and for a moment we see the man behind the curtain. |
People might want to take advantage of the free Micro-Expression Training Program to help learn to recognize just when people are deviating from the complete truth ...
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 14:25:57. |
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09/19/2008 03:50:01 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The media will naturally pounce on it and that will be the end. Basically a Dan Quayle moment with nylons. |
Um... Quayle won that election... |
Well, The republicans won, but I don't think Quayle was looked at the same. :) Maybe I should really say it might be an Admiral Stockdale moment. That sounds much more derogatory to Ms. Palin, but it may be closer to the truth. She'll be a bit more prepared than he was, but the question will be, how much? |
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09/19/2008 05:15:35 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You're driving me crazy Richard. You want to be using "affects" not "effects". ;P |
Sorry. I normally catch that mistake but didn't in those two posts.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Interestingly, that Haidt guy that I linked above with the 19 minute video will contend that the two basic morality foundations of fairness/reciprocity and caring/harm are universal and equally valued among liberals and conservatives. Only authority, tribalism (don't remember the exact term for this one), and purity are viewed differently between the two groups.
We all want fairness. Not just left-wing, bleeding-heart liberals. ;) |
Was this directed at me? I assume not since I haven't made a distinction between liberals and conservatives. My contention is we don't care enough in general not that liberals or conservatives care more or less.
Margaret Mead's famous quote: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
I would agree with that. If however we lived in a world where most people highly valued the welfare and safety of others we wouldn't need small groups of people having to spearhead change when it should be obvious to anyone with their eyes open especially in this day an age where information about the world around us is at our finger tips. We are either wowfully stupid or we choose not to care. As Don likes to say, pick one. :P
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 17:19:50.
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09/19/2008 05:17:10 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The media will naturally pounce on it and that will be the end. Basically a Dan Quayle moment with nylons. |
Um... Quayle won that election... |
Well, The republicans won, but I don't think Quayle was looked at the same. :) Maybe I should really say it might be an Admiral Stockdale moment. That sounds much more derogatory to Ms. Palin, but it may be closer to the truth. She'll be a bit more prepared than he was, but the question will be, how much? |
I'm sure she'll have some snappy soundbites dripping with sarcasm written on her flashcards. |
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