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09/15/2008 07:37:48 PM · #1 |
Hey everyone,
I'm starting this in rant, because it likely will end up here anyways, but here is a great (unbiased as far as I can see) site comparing the two candidates on major issues, and how they have voted in the past. It seems very statistically based, and lays out what they believe quite well.
Here is Obama on the issues.
and
Here is McCain on the issues.
Hope this is helpful,
Ryan
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09/16/2008 09:11:19 AM · #2 |
| Excellant listings. Thanks for the links. Confirms prior posts in other threads that Obama consistently votes in lockstep with the left of his party and McCain is a moderate. |
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09/16/2008 09:18:29 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Excellant listings. Thanks for the links. Confirms prior posts in other threads that Obama consistently votes in lockstep with the left of his party and McCain is a moderate. |
Huh? Just looking at the charts at the bottom doesn't support that statement at all:
Obama:
McCain:
Looks to me like McCain is almost as right as Obama is left. |
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09/16/2008 09:29:53 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Looks to me like McCain is almost as right as Obama is left. |
Don't bother him with facts. McCain voted with Bush 95% of the time and Obama voted with his fellow Democrats 97% of the time, however many of those votes happen to coincide, so you could say Obama voted with Bush 40% of the time proving he's a moderate. Whatever. Both sets of numbers are largely irrelevant in terms of voting "wisely," and only serve to demonstrate the likelihood of change from current policies. Now ya'll excuse me while I go watch the mushroom cloud growing over Wall Street... |
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09/16/2008 10:29:21 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Flash:
Excellant listings. Thanks for the links. Confirms prior posts in other threads that Obama consistently votes in lockstep with the left of his party and McCain is a moderate. |
Huh? Just looking at the charts at the bottom doesn't support that statement at all:
Obama:
McCain:
Looks to me like McCain is almost as right as Obama is left. |
You must be referring to the accompanying statements to the graphs that state;
"Obama is a hardcore liberal" and
"McCain is a populist left leaning conservative".
So which one would you call more moderate? |
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09/16/2008 10:34:07 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Flash:
You must be referring to the accompanying statements to the graphs that state;
"Obama is a hardcore liberal" and
"McCain is a populist left leaning conservative".
So which one would you call more moderate? |
Neither is really a moderate, and calling one "more moderate" is like calling a manatee "more human" than a dolphin. |
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09/16/2008 10:34:23 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Flash:
You must be referring to the accompanying statements to the graphs that state;
"Obama is a hardcore liberal" and
"McCain is a populist left leaning conservative".
So which one would you call more moderate? |
No offense intended, but you might want to work on your reading skills. The McCain quote is:
"John McCain is a Populist-Leaning Conservative" -- there is no "left" in that statement.
And, yes, looking just at the chart, you can make the case that McCain is ever so slightly more moderate than Obama, but that's hardly the case you've been trying to make. |
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09/16/2008 10:56:09 AM · #8 |
In fact -- the only time the word "left" appears on the McCain page at all is in this statement:
Flying Confederate flag should be left to states. (Sep 1999)
How's that for reaching across the cultural divide in this country? |
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09/16/2008 11:12:03 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
No offense intended, but you might want to work on your reading skills. The McCain quote is:
"John McCain is a Populist-Leaning Conservative" -- there is no "left" in that statement.
And, yes, looking just at the chart, you can make the case that McCain is ever so slightly more moderate than Obama, but that's hardly the case you've been trying to make. |
No offense taken. And yes it does appear that my eyes saw/read the word left when it does not precede leaning.
Regarding my "case", the term "hardcore" is more difinitive in my opinion than the term "leaning". Thus I still stand by my conclusion. As further proof of my claim, the Left loves Obama while the Right is not that happy with McCain. If McCain was so mainstream in step with his parties ideals then I would expect to see the same ferver as Obama enjoys. That is hardly the case. Therefore the case that Obama and his supporters keep trying to make - that McCain is just more Bush - is not true. The far right continues to like Bush. They do not like McCain. Conversely - the far left loves Obama - Soros, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, HCI (Handgun Control Inc), and the list goes on. So apart from your "charts" - there is much evidence to look at regarding who is more in tuned with the respective far wings of their parties. Again - Obama is smack dab left and fully embraced by the left wing and trying to present himself as a centrist - which he isn't. Never has been and I certainly don't believe he will be - just because he says a few words to that effect. McCain is, has been and very likely will govern from the center.
But as Scalvert says - lets not confuse this with facts. |
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09/16/2008 11:19:19 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by eqsite:
No offense intended, but you might want to work on your reading skills. The McCain quote is:
"John McCain is a Populist-Leaning Conservative" -- there is no "left" in that statement.
And, yes, looking just at the chart, you can make the case that McCain is ever so slightly more moderate than Obama, but that's hardly the case you've been trying to make. |
No offense taken. And yes it does appear that my eyes saw/read the word left when it does not precede leaning.
Regarding my "case", the term "hardcore" is more difinitive in my opinion than the term "leaning". Thus I still stand by my conclusion. As further proof of my claim, the Left loves Obama while the Right is not that happy with McCain. If McCain was so mainstream in step with his parties ideals then I would expect to see the same ferver as Obama enjoys. That is hardly the case. Therefore the case that Obama and his supporters keep trying to make - that McCain is just more Bush - is not true. The far right continues to like Bush. They do not like McCain. Conversely - the far left loves Obama - Soros, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, HCI (Handgun Control Inc), and the list goes on. So apart from your "charts" - there is much evidence to look at regarding who is more in tuned with the respective far wings of their parties. Again - Obama is smack dab left and fully embraced by the left wing and trying to present himself as a centrist - which he isn't. Never has been and I certainly don't believe he will be - just because he says a few words to that effect. McCain is, has been and very likely will govern from the center.
But as Scalvert says - lets not confuse this with facts. |
Facts? The site uses each candidate's record to backup their placement on the chart. But when these facts don't agree with your world view, you just spout your opinion and try to present it as "fact" (see, I can use quotes too). McCain is clearly just as off-center as Obama -- just in the other direction (which happens to be the direction of Bush -- gee I wonder why people think he will govern as poorly as Bush). |
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09/16/2008 11:29:47 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Flash:
the Right is not that happy with McCain. |
There's certainly no evidence of that on this site. |
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09/16/2008 11:32:32 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Facts? The site uses each candidate's record to backup their placement on the chart. But when these facts don't agree with your world view, you just spout your opinion and try to present it as "fact" (see, I can use quotes too). McCain is clearly just as off-center as Obama -- just in the other direction (which happens to be the direction of Bush -- gee I wonder why people think he will govern as poorly as Bush). |
1. Is the term "hardcore" different than the term "leaning"?.
2. Why do Soros, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, HCI, Sean Penn and Hollywood elitist embrace Obama if he is so "centrist"?
3. Why does the right wing of the Republican party (who still likes GW Bush) dislike McCain to the point of refusing to even vote for him - and saying so publicly?
It is the left who keeps trying to portray McCain as Bush III and some right winger. His own party doesn't think so and they like Bush II. The gun rights activists are not clamoring to support McCain as he has voted against them too many times. His positions historically have tolerated at least some abortion - contrary to the views/positions of his parties right wing. His positions on immigration historically have been at odds with his own party as have other positions.
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie.
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09/16/2008 11:43:50 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Flash:
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie. |
As the only one in this thread to suggest that claim, at least you admit it. No one else has claimed that Obama is a centrist, only that neither is McCain. A centrist wouldn't draft Palin as VP. |
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09/16/2008 11:47:35 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Facts? The site uses each candidate's record to backup their placement on the chart. But when these facts don't agree with your world view, you just spout your opinion and try to present it as "fact" (see, I can use quotes too). McCain is clearly just as off-center as Obama -- just in the other direction (which happens to be the direction of Bush -- gee I wonder why people think he will govern as poorly as Bush). |
1. Is the term "hardcore" different than the term "leaning"?.
2. Why do Soros, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, HCI, Sean Penn and Hollywood elitist embrace Obama if he is so "centrist"?
3. Why does the right wing of the Republican party (who still likes GW Bush) dislike McCain to the point of refusing to even vote for him - and saying so publicly?
It is the left who keeps trying to portray McCain as Bush III and some right winger. His own party doesn't think so and they like Bush II. The gun rights activists are not clamoring to support McCain as he has voted against them too many times. His positions historically have tolerated at least some abortion - contrary to the views/positions of his parties right wing. His positions on immigration historically have been at odds with his own party as have other positions.
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie. |
Sigh. Again, please reread the site. Hardcore is different from leaning, but whereas it says hardcore liberal for Obama, it does not say "leaning" conservative for McCain -- it says "Populist-Leaning" conservative. Populist and Liberal are not synonyms.
McCain on Abortion (from the site):
Voting Record
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)
Expand embryonic stem cell research. (Jun 2004)
Rated 75% by the NRLC, indicating a mixed record on abortion. (Dec 2006)
Prohibit transporting minors across state lines for abortion. (Jan 2008)
There are only 2 items here that I can see the far-right complaining about.
I'm not going to go through the rest of it, but McCain has certainly leaned more and more right as this campaign has gone one - item #1 being Sarah Palin. |
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09/16/2008 11:47:40 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie. |
As the only one in this thread to suggest that claim, at least you admit it. No one else has claimed that Obama is a centrist, only that neither is McCain. A centrist wouldn't draft Palin as VP. |
Actually, I think that is exactly what a "centrist," or someone who is more central than a lot on the right, would do. He knew the far (religious) right potentially had some issues with him, so he gets someone on board that they will like -- and Palin fits that bill. If he was as far right as "the left," in general, likes to propagate, he would have not needed someone more right than him, and he could have gotten someone more centrist/left. |
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09/16/2008 11:49:46 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
A centrist wouldn't draft Palin as VP. |
Sure they would, as an appeal to the extreme right that would help secure the vote of the Republican base that is clearly uncomfortable with McCain being too liberal. |
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09/16/2008 11:50:59 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Actually, I think that is exactly what a "centrist," or someone who is more central than a lot on the right, would do. |
I disagree. All you have to do is look at the graph. A centrist moves toward the middle, not further out on the limb. |
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09/16/2008 11:52:04 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Sure they would, as an appeal to the extreme right that would help secure the vote of the Republican base that is clearly uncomfortable with McCain being too liberal. |
That's called pandering, not moderation. |
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09/16/2008 11:53:15 AM · #19 |
So far the only "issue" mentioned in this thread is Abortion.
What about: Healthcare? the economy? Education? â€Â¦ I dunno, things that might affect the majority of us every day. |
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09/16/2008 11:53:33 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by karmat:
Actually, I think that is exactly what a "centrist," or someone who is more central than a lot on the right, would do. |
I disagree. All you have to do is look at the graph. A centrist moves toward the middle, not further out on the limb. |
IF he were just passing policy, or establishing his philosophy, perhaps.
Trying to win the presidency of the US? I think he would try to get someone that will get him votes (as Obama did with Biden).
Pandering (and lying) is the creed of politicians. |
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09/16/2008 11:55:07 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie. |
As the only one in this thread to suggest that claim, at least you admit it. No one else has claimed that Obama is a centrist, only that neither is McCain. A centrist wouldn't draft Palin as VP. |
Actually, I think that is exactly what a "centrist," or someone who is more central than a lot on the right, would do. He knew the far (religious) right potentially had some issues with him, so he gets someone on board that they will like -- and Palin fits that bill. If he was as far right as "the left," in general, likes to propagate, he would have not needed someone more right than him, and he could have gotten someone more centrist/left. |
I disagree. I think the strategy was to pick someone who was so far right that she made McCain look centrist by comparison. That doesn't actually make him a centrist though. |
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09/16/2008 11:55:31 AM · #22 |
It really makes no sense either. Apparently the "purpose" of the VP according to Republicans is to "get more votes". But what are Repubs thinking â€Â¦ "Cool, McCain is so-so, but at least if he dies we'll have some right-wing hockey mom to replace him!" ?
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Sure they would, as an appeal to the extreme right that would help secure the vote of the Republican base that is clearly uncomfortable with McCain being too liberal. |
That's called pandering, not moderation. |
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09/16/2008 12:04:17 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Sure they would, as an appeal to the extreme right that would help secure the vote of the Republican base that is clearly uncomfortable with McCain being too liberal. |
That's called pandering, not moderation. |
I never said it was either. I'd say the McCain folks would call it "Balancing the ticket" or something like that, but as you know, you can put lipstick on a pig...but it's still a pig. |
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09/16/2008 12:07:38 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by metatate:
It really makes no sense either. Apparently the "purpose" of the VP according to Republicans is to "get more votes". But what are Repubs thinking â€Â¦ "Cool, McCain is so-so, but at least if he dies we'll have some right-wing hockey mom to replace him!" ?
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Sure they would, as an appeal to the extreme right that would help secure the vote of the Republican base that is clearly uncomfortable with McCain being too liberal. |
That's called pandering, not moderation. |
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That and after 8 years of McCain, they'll have a lipstick-wearing pitbull for a candidate. |
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09/16/2008 12:11:12 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
The falsehood of saying McCain is something he is not and portraying Obama as a centrist is simply untrue. In plain speak that means it is a lie. |
As the only one in this thread to suggest that claim, at least you admit it. No one else has claimed that Obama is a centrist, only that neither is McCain. A centrist wouldn't draft Palin as VP. |
Actually, I think that is exactly what a "centrist," or someone who is more central than a lot on the right, would do. |
I'd say that the choice of Palin was a nod to those who will butter his bread, in no uncertain terms.
He iced off the religious right(the party base)with that move and the few issues that make or break their vote.
For example they may agree with Obama on 97 out of a hundred issues but if he's pro-choice, pro-stem cell etc. they're votes are lost. It's a parochial way of doing business but it cuts. |
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