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 09/11/2008 04:45:50 PM · #26
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Another "statement" that comes up once in a while..."cherry picking". Related to "thumbnail voting" I believe.

So, the question is; does "cherry picking" actually happen? If yes, is it on a large scale? How can you prove/disprove it?



I guess it doesn't matter. I used to harp on it til I decided the voter is always right, no matter what they do. So, believe it or not, on the big challenges I actually cherry pick on the thumbs myself now. I don't vote on a full challenge anymore unless it's less than 200 entries. If it's ok for everyone else it's certainly ok for me to do it. It is disappointing some times as I'll see a winning entry and wow, I didn't see it in the voting. It's just hard to see the award winning images when you only look at the thumbs.


I agree there is a chance to miss a great shot, but if you are not going to vote on every entry anyway, do you think cherry picking would skew the end results? Would it skew the results if most of the voters did this? (I am asking for opinions, not trying to be sarcastic.)
 09/11/2008 05:01:24 PM · #27
As the originator of the quote in the first post in this thread - I'd like to explain what I meant by the idea of "voting on the thumbnails". Once a voter has voted on some (or all) images in a challenge, they can go back to the challenge voting screen, and view all the images as thumbnails. For those images on whcih they have already voted, they can adjust their votes based ONLY on viewing the thumbnail. And, they are comparing all the images on one screen, so this is the way an image with a less interesting thumbnail can get it vote adjusted downwards, in comparison to others.
Thats what I meant.
 09/11/2008 05:03:24 PM · #28
Originally posted by chaimelle:

I agree there is a chance to miss a great shot, but if you are not going to vote on every entry anyway, do you think cherry picking would skew the end results? Would it skew the results if most of the voters did this? (I am asking for opinions, not trying to be sarcastic.)


IMO, and I emphasize "My" opinion, yes, it can very well skew the results. Some images reduce to thumbnail size very well, others don't. Whether they do or don't has little correlation to whether they are great images at full size. If everyone cherry-picked, it would *completely* defeat the random presentation of images that is *so* important to ensure every entry is looked at by a roughly equal number of voters, regardless of whether the individual voters vote the entire challenge.
I've personally advocated for a very long time to end cherry-picking by implementing something like the suggestion above; don't show the thumbs until the user has voted on them.
What makes DPC different from almost every other photo contest site is that we take great pains to make sure that voting is as fair and equitable as possible. IMO, we need to close the cherry-picking loophole. I don't think this will happen, however, unless the community asks for it.
09/11/2008 05:19:19 PM · #29
Good point. I wouldn't have a problem with not having thumbnails until the image has been voted on. When I vote, my intention is to vote on every image, but occasionally I have been unable to get all the way through and just glanced at the thumbnails to see if anything would catch my eye.

As for after I have completed voting, I do go back and look at the thumbnails of my 5's through 10's, but I reopen the large image before making any changes.
 09/11/2008 05:35:27 PM · #30
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by chaimelle:

I agree there is a chance to miss a great shot, but if you are not going to vote on every entry anyway, do you think cherry picking would skew the end results? Would it skew the results if most of the voters did this? (I am asking for opinions, not trying to be sarcastic.)


IMO, and I emphasize "My" opinion, yes, it can very well skew the results. Some images reduce to thumbnail size very well, others don't. Whether they do or don't has little correlation to whether they are great images at full size. If everyone cherry-picked, it would *completely* defeat the random presentation of images that is *so* important to ensure every entry is looked at by a roughly equal number of voters, regardless of whether the individual voters vote the entire challenge.
I've personally advocated for a very long time to end cherry-picking by implementing something like the suggestion above; don't show the thumbs until the user has voted on them.
What makes DPC different from almost every other photo contest site is that we take great pains to make sure that voting is as fair and equitable as possible. IMO, we need to close the cherry-picking loophole. I don't think this will happen, however, unless the community asks for it.


Do you actually have statistics that support this? Every time I've looked at the challenge stats that are available to me the gap between votes received is almost always around 10 or so (meaning some get about 10 more or 10 fewer votes). That gap doesn't skew the results. Now if everyone did cherry pick would it skew the results? I dont' know. We'd have to see first. We have a very diverse community so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if everyone did cherry pick that the vote gap would remain about the same as it is now. What you might cherry pick and what I might cherry pick wouldn't be the same.

Message edited by author 2008-09-11 17:44:36.
 09/11/2008 06:16:17 PM · #31
Originally posted by kirbic:
IMO, we need to close the cherry-picking loophole. I don't think this will happen, however, unless the community asks for it.


Well I for one started a thread last month on this very thing. The majority complaint with it seemed to be a fear of not being able to screen out and flag offensive images. However I cannot figure how this is done without looking at the full sized image anyway, might as well let it be a surprise.

I believe the thumbnails while great for navigating after the fact, give an often negative and bad first impression to thumbnail voters.

Otherwise I would suggest renaming the site to (Digital Thumbnail Challenge).
09/11/2008 06:47:15 PM · #32
Originally posted by togtog:
Originally posted by kirbic:
IMO, we need to close the cherry-picking loophole. I don't think this will happen, however, unless the community asks for it.


Well I for one started a thread last month on this very thing. The majority complaint with it seemed to be a fear of not being able to screen out and flag offensive images. However I cannot figure how this is done without looking at the full sized image anyway, might as well let it be a surprise.

I believe the thumbnails while great for navigating after the fact, give an often negative and bad first impression to thumbnail voters.

Otherwise I would suggest renaming the site to (Digital Thumbnail Challenge).


I'm not sure how to define offensive. However, with things like nudes the site could put up the grey square that asks you to click through to see the original image. For the people that get offended by pictures contrary to their political ideas or whatever, I have no suggestion.
 09/11/2008 07:11:03 PM · #33
Originally posted by togtog:
I believe the thumbnails while great for navigating after the fact, give an often negative and bad first impression to thumbnail voters.


What do you base that on? I suppose if the level of sharpness is very important in your vote then yeah the thumbnail version can lead to false expectations of sharpness since the smaller size makes everything appear sharper than it actually is. Other than that I don't know what else might lead one to a negative first impression if you see the thumbnail first.

Message edited by author 2008-09-11 19:12:47.
 09/11/2008 08:12:27 PM · #34
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I agree there is a chance to miss a great shot, but if you are not going to vote on every entry anyway, do you think cherry picking would skew the end results? Would it skew the results if most of the voters did this? (I am asking for opinions, not trying to be sarcastic.)


Originally posted by kirbic:

IMO, and I emphasize "My" opinion, yes, it can very well skew the results. Some images reduce to thumbnail size very well, others don't. Whether they do or don't has little correlation to whether they are great images at full size. If everyone cherry-picked, it would *completely* defeat the random presentation of images that is *so* important to ensure every entry is looked at by a roughly equal number of voters, regardless of whether the individual voters vote the entire challenge


I have to agree with Kirbic for a given individual cherry picking has to have an effect. If the draw is not random (even only 20%) then the vote has to be biased by the picking. If you rate 50 random pictures that range from good to bad your average vote will have to be lower than if you select 50 interesting (read good) pictures to vote on.

Originally posted by yanko:
Do you actually have statistics that support this? Every time I've looked at the challenge stats that are available to me the gap between votes received is almost always around 10 or so (meaning some get about 10 more or 10 fewer votes). That gap doesn't skew the results. Now if everyone did cherry pick would it skew the results? I dont' know. We'd have to see first. We have a very diverse community so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if everyone did cherry pick that the vote gap would remain about the same as it is now. What you might cherry pick and what I might cherry pick wouldn't be the same.


However, Yanko̢۪s points are quite important. Beyond the individual it̢۪s likely to balance out because one cherry picker will offset another. Also as he points out, look at the range of the total number of votes in a given challenge. It doesn̢۪t vary enough to say that this is a major problem. I̢۪d be more a bit concerned if everybody did it. Like everything in DPC voting, things tend to balance out. Cherry pickers are balance by 100% voters, trolls are balanced by voters that freely give out Tens, etc.

09/11/2008 11:54:23 PM · #35
Whoa! I was away since this afternoon and just did a quick check on DPC to see what's going on. I've got some catching up to do on reading in here. :-)

BTW - That's just my sneaky way of giving this thread a "bump" until I can catch-up tomorrow. Time to hit the sheets for now. ZZZzzzzz...
 09/12/2008 02:22:44 PM · #36
Originally posted by Shaman:
As the originator of the quote in the first post in this thread - I'd like to explain what I meant by the idea of "voting on the thumbnails". Once a voter has voted on some (or all) images in a challenge, they can go back to the challenge voting screen, and view all the images as thumbnails. For those images on whcih they have already voted, they can adjust their votes based ONLY on viewing the thumbnail. And, they are comparing all the images on one screen, so this is the way an image with a less interesting thumbnail can get it vote adjusted downwards, in comparison to others.
Thats what I meant.

Hi. Thanks for joining in. I hope you don't think I was picking on you specifically...the topic is brought up enough that I thought I'd toss it out for conversation rather than just a passing comment in thread where the topic gets lost.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that your reference to "thumbnail voting" is actually about the adjustments many voters make AFTER they've voted on the full size image - yes?

Based on this, the suggestion posted to not show thumbnails until after the voter has voted on all entries, really wouldn't matter in this case. Votes can be altered after voting anyway from the thumbnails. Unless someone wants to standup and advocate that you vote only once...no adjustments allowed afterwards (good luck with that!). :-)
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