Comments, again! - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/08/2008 09:10:33 PM · #26

Here is another example:

Avg (commenters): 7.3333
Avg (participants): 5.4575

A difference of almost 2 points between those who commented and those who didnt. And this image got sold :-)

Maggye

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/08/2008 09:11:16 PM · #27

Originally posted by Prash:

Originally posted by Maggye:
Good for you prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!!

Thanks for the encouragement, you actually supported my suggestion to only count commented votes for final scores!

To answer your question: what you mentioned would be an individual based system, not guaranteed to be fair. So some people who are nice enough to take the time out (like yourself), will comment on most entries. Others (the majority, like myself) will not do it at their level because the system doesnt require it. Now please think about it: is it more efficient to

- pick on everyone (like you did on me, thanks) and ask them to comment, and whether they will comment more for this reason?

OR

- to have a system that will even out this individual preference based commenting style?

I am looking for a constructive answer, not individual blaming, sorry no pun intended.

Sorry

prash I didn't mean to pick on you, I respect your opinion about this subject, I just meant to encourage you make more comments, sorry again if it didn't come across that way.

bassbone

Nikon Z8

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

09/08/2008 09:12:03 PM · #28

Judi have done an excellent job of providing 'commenting awards' to those who have commented on 100% of entries in a specific challenge. There are a more than a few who have done it, and believe me it is difficult and time consuming.

A suggestion for you...try one of those on for size and then come back and discuss further. Perhaps the "Shallow DOF' would be a great start.

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 21:12:48.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/08/2008 09:12:16 PM · #29

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by Prash:
...
Honestly, it is not nice to see new thinking avoided, and not confronted and discussed objectively.

It is just sad.

Prash, I'm so sorry, but it's not really "new" thinking. I think this is the point that some of the others are trying to make.

It's so nice that you are excited about DPC and willing to jump in with both feet! Why not take some time to familiarize yourself with the older threads on the subject? If, after doing so, there is an angle or argument for/against that hasn't already been presented I'm sure the rest of us would be glad to listen.

I'm sure you'll be interested to know that for awhile, DPC did institute a program that "nagged" voters to leave a comment on votes of 3 or less. We found that it had no discernible effect, and it was discontinued.

Thank you, I will go over the suggested threads. Thanks to all those who took the time to comment.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

09/08/2008 09:12:27 PM · #30

Originally posted by Prash:

Honestly, it is not nice to see new thinking avoided, and not confronted and discussed objectively.

It is just sad.

It's not new for a lot of us as this topic is not new and most have strong opinion on the topic. I will share mine again.

The image got a good score and by most standards good deal of comments. If the photog wanted more critical comments he could start a thread asking for them.

Most of the time the comments in challenges are of a positive nature. As been stated before if you desire critical comments start a thread and ask for just that. The thing is you can't make that choice for me. I pay to play and I will abide by the rules but I won't be forced to do what I don't want to do.

ETA: Too late ...

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 21:12:50.

09/08/2008 09:19:24 PM · #31

Originally posted by bassbone:

Prash - Since you have joined on August 10, there have been almost 2000 pictures entered into challenges. Yet, you have seen it possible to make comments on only 60 or so photos. Yet, in the same time you have posted almost 200 thread posts - most on exactly the same topic. If you are as serious about your interest in getting comments out to the challenge entries, you should try commenting (as many have already done to you).

You state that you are sad that 'new thinking' is not embraced - but the new thinking you are talking about is not new to the site. Others have recommended and suggested commenting being compulsory, but it is not embraced and incredibly fraught with flaws (i.e. comments like '5' and 'nice' would be more common). But more than likely, less people would vote.

Individuals such as Judi have done an excellent job of providing 'commenting awards' to those who have commented on 100% of entries in a specific challenge. There are a more than a few who have done it, and believe me it is difficult and time consuming.

A suggestion for you...try one of those on for size and then come back and discuss further. Perhaps the "Shallow DOF' would be a great start.

Thank you. This is a great constructive comment. I appreciate all that you said, but I am still not convinced that encouraging individuals about commenting can even out the kind of scoring bias that I shared in the first message. There will always be uneven commenting, but may be there isnt a better way out.

Sincere thanks to all for comments.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/08/2008 09:21:41 PM · #32

Originally posted by Maggye:

Originally posted by Prash:

Originally posted by Maggye:
Good for you prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!!

Thanks for the encouragement, you actually supported my suggestion to only count commented votes for final scores!

To answer your question: what you mentioned would be an individual based system, not guaranteed to be fair. So some people who are nice enough to take the time out (like yourself), will comment on most entries. Others (the majority, like myself) will not do it at their level because the system doesnt require it. Now please think about it: is it more efficient to

- pick on everyone (like you did on me, thanks) and ask them to comment, and whether they will comment more for this reason?

OR

- to have a system that will even out this individual preference based commenting style?

I am looking for a constructive answer, not individual blaming, sorry no pun intended.

Sorry prash I didn't mean to pick on you, I respect your opinion about this subject, I just meant to encourage you make more comments, sorry again if it didn't come across that way.

I admire your photography, and you are a great commenter too. My suggestion began with trying to even out efforts of people like you with those like me who dont comment. I will try and comment more myself at least.

Thank you.

DJWoodward

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

09/08/2008 09:23:47 PM · #33

Ok, Back to the point for me too...

No matter what scheme you use to force comments the reality is that you can't force the quality of comments. The reality is that we would end up with fewer votes which are absolutely needed for a challenge site to exist and a bunch of inane comments that help no one.

Since the OP has mentioned our fear of change or aversion to new thinking Iâ��m going to risk thread creep and make one last comment. Prash we talked about this privately. The DPC community isnâ��t resistant to change. The site continues to evolve every day. My best advice to any new user is to ask questions as you have. Then listen to and consider the answers carefully instead of dismissing them as you have. In your second post to this thread you dismissed the answer given you and insulted the person responding to you. Please take this as advice not a reprimand. Slow down a little and listen. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Nuff said (for me).

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 22:11:52.

kaiser_chief

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D

09/08/2008 09:28:42 PM · #34

Many people on this site unfortunately do not have time to comment on every photo. I struggle to Vote every week sometimes. However, when i vote, I tend to comment the Photos I scored both high and low. The high ones to tell them what I liked (and possibly a hint as to what may have increased their score to the maximum), and the low scored to tell them what I dod not like.

However, it would be exceptionally difficult for me to ever comment 100% in a challenge (note the few people with 100% Comment Awards)

I don't think there needs to be a change. It would be great to get more comments, but they need to be useful, well thought ones (nice shot, while nice to get, is not really helpful). People vote for different reasons, some comment and some don't. Its just something you get used to.

People that want more comments should make more themselves. Possibly having an extra challenge every few months open only to those that gave more comments in the period than received (members and non members) may encourage more people to comment a little more..........

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

09/08/2008 10:08:58 PM · #35

Originally posted by kaiser_chief:

People that want more comments should make more themselves. Possibly having an extra challenge every few months open only to those that gave more comments in the period than received (members and non members) may encourage more people to comment a little more..........

Now that is a great suggestion. Having a challenge only for the ones that are good (statistically) at commenting.

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 22:09:12.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

09/08/2008 10:34:02 PM · #36

Even comments like Yes, No, Okay, Good, Bad, Uh?..... People pretty much do what they do. As for what you call low scores for well commented upon submissions, just remember that somebody has to lose. Sometimes I feel I am providing a great service occupying the lower scale. Besides, you yourself said in another thread how thrilled you were getting a fave, never mind your score. This is really where it's at in my superior opinion.

jdannels

Nikon D300s

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

09/08/2008 10:37:59 PM · #37

Originally posted by Prash:

Originally posted by kaiser_chief:
People that want more comments should make more themselves. Possibly having an extra challenge every few months open only to those that gave more comments in the period than received (members and non members) may encourage more people to comment a little more..........

Now that is a great suggestion. Having a challenge only for the ones that are good (statistically) at commenting.

They already did this for a FS. You got lots of people making comments as to what there score was to try and enter the challenge. It didn't make for too many helpful comments, although I now know someone gave me a 6.

See rule 7 and 11.

jhomrighaus

Nikon D5300

Sigma 18-300mm f3.5-6.3 DC Macro OS HSM

09/08/2008 10:38:36 PM · #38

Originally posted by Prash:

Here is another example:

Avg (commenters): 7.3333
Avg (participants): 5.4575

A difference of almost 2 points between those who commented and those who didnt. And this image got sold :-)

One of the problems here is that your commenters do not represent a statistical majority, there were only 8 comments out of 301 votes. If there was only 1 person who loved it and gave it a 10 then the score would be even more skewed. The answer is not to require comments, perhaps we need to find more ways to reward comments, The 100% comment club or comment exclusive challenges are some good ways that is done, what others ways could we make commenting worthwhile to a larger portion of people?

What if the Votes of Commenters were weighted slightly and used a similar logic as the request for critique(where it expects a certain length or something)?

What if your helpful comments metric gained you a reduced membership fee, or perhaps gave you more storage for every 250 useful comments, or a free print, or something like that?

What if you got an upgraded Icon for having a positive Comment tally(kind of like the stars on ebay)?

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 22:45:20.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

09/08/2008 10:44:38 PM · #39

Originally posted by jdannels:

Originally posted by Prash:

Originally posted by kaiser_chief:
People that want more comments should make more themselves. Possibly having an extra challenge every few months open only to those that gave more comments in the period than received (members and non members) may encourage more people to comment a little more..........

Now that is a great suggestion. Having a challenge only for the ones that are good (statistically) at commenting.

They already did this for a FS. You got lots of people making comments as to what there score was to try and enter the challenge. It didn't make for too many helpful comments, although I now know someone gave me a 6.

See rule 7 and 11.

I think if every once in a while a challenge popped up with the commenting restriction it might work. Sure once the first two came out you might get a few people trying to bump their comment count with meaningless comments but the last time a lot of those comments were rendered ineligible and were thrown out.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/08/2008 10:45:46 PM · #40

Originally posted by jdannels:

See rule 7 and 11.

28

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 22:46:03.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

09/08/2008 10:46:31 PM · #41

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by jdannels:

See rule 7 and 11.

28

Should the answer be 18 or 77?

sorry couldn't resist.

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

Message edited by author 2008-09-08 22:47:13.

jdannels

Nikon D300s

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

09/08/2008 10:49:52 PM · #42

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by jdannels:

See rule 7 and 11.

28

Should the answer be 18 or 77?

sorry couldn't resist.

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

28 was the correct answer. D'oh!

jdannels

Nikon D300s

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

09/08/2008 10:53:01 PM · #43

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

I forgot about that part. Or when the challenge is announced you already have to have more comments given than received or you can't enter. Might get some to keep commenting at at least a 1 to 1 ratio.

FireBird

09/08/2008 11:15:19 PM · #44

It seems the OP is most disturbed about the spread between commenters votes, and the average w/o comments. As mentioned earlier in the thread it's just human nature to comment on the images we love. The ones I find very difficult to comment on are the ones I rate below 4. In some cases you really have to wonder why they made the image. (I'm not immune to this problem, just look at my porfolio!) I almost believe for these images a 2 way dialog would be needed to see if a comment or suggest could help. So I agree with others in the thread, if you really didn't get enough comments or the right kind of comments during the challenge, post the image thumb here and ask.

As far as fear of change, that's not much of a problem. The site owner Langdon has to make the changes. He makes them in much the same way a hippy bathes, tiny and few and far between!

09/08/2008 11:35:57 PM · #45

Originally posted by jdannels:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

I think if every once in a while a challenge popped up with the commenting restriction it might work. Sure once the first two came out you might get a few people trying to bump their comment count with meaningless comments but the last time a lot of those comments were rendered ineligible and were thrown out.

I forgot about that part. Or when the challenge is announced you already have to have more comments given than received or you can't enter. Might get some to keep commenting at at least a 1 to 1 ratio.

That is another great idea (by cpanaioti) to encourage more comments by rewarding the commenters.

Another thing that I want to clarify is this: the main objective of this thread was to point out the disparity between commenter's ratings and the participant's ratings, and then to look for a way to reduce that by somehow encouraging comments. It doesnt have to be with making the comments mandatory. The above suggestion (by cpanaioti) is a great one IMO. But if this has already been suggested before, dont jump on me with guns, I am slowly reading through old forums.

09/08/2008 11:54:23 PM · #46

Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by jdannels:

See rule 7 and 11.

28

09/09/2008 12:02:59 AM · #47

Originally posted by jdannels:

Hahahah! That is hilarious (the beginner's guide) :-) :-) :-)

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

09/09/2008 12:45:56 AM · #48

Scores aren't everything thread.
This may be of interest since the image is being discussed here.