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11/03/2008 08:28:34 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I realized that just because some people worshiped God this way didn't mean that God didn't exist but just that they (the people) had it wrong what God wanted from them. |
This bugs me....
I very much believe in God, and the relationship I have with Him/Her/Whatever, has NOTHING whatsoever with what you, or anyone else has as far as their relationship with God.
I don't buy it for one second that God needs, or wants, any of the strange creatures that we are as his emissaries.
Why would he need or want that? By nature, humans are not going to take well the idea that another human being has the right to tell them what to do.
And someone's going to tell ME how I am going to have a relationship with the God of my understanding?????
I don't think so!!!
I answer to God. Period.
Well.....and my wife, but that's a whole 'nother rant.
So how can anyone be wrong in their personal relationship with their guiding spiritual being, or whatever?
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11/03/2008 08:32:22 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Is it me or does it seem like that a LOT of (former Christian) atheists were brought up Catholic? |
Originally posted by Louis:
Is it just me, or does it seem that most fundamentalist Christians are routinely anti-Catholic? |
Originally posted by citymars:
I know a lot of self-proclaimed "former Catholics." I've also heard many fundamentalist Christians refer to Catholicism as a "Mary cult." |
I've always considered the Catholic church to be the world's largest terrorist organization.
They rule by fear, intimidation, and they demand your money for protection.
Sounds an awful lot like organized crime, too.
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11/03/2008 08:33:38 AM · #78 |
Actually, forget it.
Message edited by author 2008-11-03 08:45:27. |
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11/03/2008 09:43:07 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by crayon:
just like how you always fill up the "religion" section of your application form eventho you dont have anything to write there - conformance! ;) |
Applications for what? They're not allowed to ask it on job applications. |
school... they have religious classes for specific ones :/ |
I take that as a yes or no question. |
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11/03/2008 09:49:09 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I realized that just because some people worshiped God this way didn't mean that God didn't exist but just that they (the people) had it wrong what God wanted from them. |
This bugs me....
I very much believe in God, and the relationship I have with Him/Her/Whatever, has NOTHING whatsoever with what you, or anyone else has as far as their relationship with God.
I don't buy it for one second that God needs, or wants, any of the strange creatures that we are as his emissaries.
Why would he need or want that? By nature, humans are not going to take well the idea that another human being has the right to tell them what to do.
And someone's going to tell ME how I am going to have a relationship with the God of my understanding?????
I don't think so!!!
I answer to God. Period.
Well.....and my wife, but that's a whole 'nother rant.
So how can anyone be wrong in their personal relationship with their guiding spiritual being, or whatever? |
I agree with you. My point is that just because you may see people doing what you consider to be wrong in the name of God that it does not nullify God or his existence. God is personal and has a personal relationship with each person in my view. |
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11/03/2008 11:37:16 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
What exactly are the wrong reasons to be an atheist? I personally like the one that is the truth. I was wrong. I was arrogant. I was foolish. The reasons I would have stated in my atheist days would have included: If I couldn't prove it with science I rejected it. If the church was representative of God then there was no God because the church has done so much wrong. Religion is used to control people and that is its true intended purpose. If God existed then why would a good and just God allow so much suffering in the world? If there were one true God then why so many different religions both past and present with multiple gods and gods that differ so greatly from each other... and on and on and on. In short... all of the same arguments that I get from those who are currently atheist. There is nothing new under the sun here.
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Nothing new under the sun?
God is good
God watches you
God will let you in his club if you suck up to him
God will reject you and you will go to hell for all eternity
God has a plan
God is my saviour
God is my light
God is right and you are all wrong
God is bla bla bla
Nothing new under the sun?
I don't know why I entered another religious discussion with you dp. You're a lost living soul as far as i'm concerned. Seeing you waste your life for a man made god that you hold so close to your existence makes me angry because I know that you're wasting the only life you will ever get and that once you're dead, you will rot in a box and that will be it. You won't go to heaven, you won't be judged, you won't live for all eternity with your family members. You'll be a memory to your relatives and friends, a tombstone will probably tell everyone who sees it that you were a religious man with some verse from your holy book scribbled on there for good measure.
You will rot 6 feet underground while your god continues to not exist. Your carcass will smell and be eaten by vermin and other insects. You will be one with the dirt you were buried in. In a thousand years from now some developer will acquire the right to dig up your corpse and move it to somewhere else so he can build some housing. By then they may just dump you in a landfill for the belief of gods has long been forgotten and the world has suddenly become a better place for all to live their lives, without the fear of a god. People all over will rejoice and love each other and the earth will be saved from environmental disaster because all the money that religion was sucking in will be used to clean it up instead. Churches will be burnt down as they will be viewed as prisons for the disenfranchised and uneducated.
Depression will be eradicated.
Greed will be a thing of the past.
Racial pressure will cease to exist.
People will help each other the world over.
Poverty eradicated.
Famine eradicated.
A perfect world without any mention of a god. Utopia.
This snippet of the future was brought to you by JR Storytelling inc. I can dream, or is that sacrilegious? ;]
Dp, tell me something different in your reply, if indeed you do reply. Try not using the word faith. ;] |
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11/03/2008 12:58:01 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Jac:
A perfect world without any mention of a god. Utopia. |
I feel a belief that left to its own devices mankind will bring forth a utopia is just about as misguided as believing in a god.
Doesn't history tell us that when left to it's own devices mankind invents tools of control to oppress the many for the good of the few? Religion is just one of them.
Why do you feel that in the absence of religion utopia would result? Where's all this altruism and good will coming from? Good parenting? |
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11/03/2008 01:02:50 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Where's all this altruism and good will coming from? Good parenting? |
It's coming from Amazon.com. Heck, even their logo is a smile. ;-) |
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11/03/2008 01:41:28 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by crayon:
just like how you always fill up the "religion" section of your application form eventho you dont have anything to write there - conformance! ;) |
Applications for what? They're not allowed to ask it on job applications. |
school... they have religious classes for specific ones :/ |
Not in the public schools, do they? I assume you mean private schools? (Remember, I'm a Canuck, I don't know how things are done "down there") |
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11/03/2008 01:56:46 PM · #85 |
I'm always confounded by these religionist/atheist debates, which usually seem to present atheism as some sort of 'falling away' from the church, or faith as some sort of 'conversion' from atheism. This topic is obsessed over page after page, while in my mind, it's a complete sideline.
Maybe I'm lucky, but I'm a 'pure' agnostic. I NEVER had faith in a god or gods, and have always seen them as poison. Even the idea of leaving a church to become pagan or a Satanist seems so terribly misguided to me. I would, in the past, have said I was an atheist, but I have tempered that stance mostly to acknowledge that I can't know the real answers in any philosophical sense... but don't take that as a testament to the power of faith in this world... I can't know if I'm a brain in a jar being stimulated externally, can't know if I'm a simulation running somewhere, I can't even know if the blue I see is the same as the blue you see. It is more of a nod to my willingness to self-deprecate than it is the power of faith. I simply don't allow myself the right to believe that I can know, philosophically, more than can be known.
I feel I was lucky to grow up in a house with two agnostic parents that came from two families who practiced a quiet, personal faith, as opposed to a loud, demonstrative faith, and was given the space to see things from the outside. How many agnostics or atheists started off like me, I can't say, but I also can't believe that we're completely outnumbered by those who used to have faith. All the religion-free people I know never really had any faith to leave behind!
I would also posit that the vast majority of the faithful did not 'come to' faith... much like they did not 'come to' a belief in Santa Claus... but it is their upbringing that instilled a particular worldview before reason even came into play. While there may be many cases of post-reason conversion in either direction, I feel that for the overwhelming preponderance of religious people, faith came before choice, and that the doubt described in previous posts is an attempt to reconcile a worldview that they did not choose but that was given to them before they even knew they were involved.
In other words, people are given faith by fate and upbringing, and only then try to apply reason to it, which causes doubt (as descibed in previous posts), at which point they (perhaps with external support) either accept their faith, reinterpret it, or abandon it. The reverse does not happen nearly as much for agnostics, since there are few arguments that would appeal to them or be logically acceptable. In every last instance I know of, it hasn't been reason that's caused an agnostic's conversion to faith... it's been a direct relevatory experience, an epiphany.
I'm sure that if I had the same sort of profound spiritual experience I've had on certain substances without having that substance itself as a known cause, I would be sorely tempted to ascribe them to powers beyond my reason. I also believe that these certain substances are simply tapping into an inner world we all have at all times but that's not normally exposed to us at a conscious level... they merely allow what is inside to be noticed without the many filters the brain uses to help us understand the world around us. I also believe that these epiphanies can be caused by any number of reasons... stress, euphoria, brain malfunction, near death experiences...
They can be profoundly spiritual, even the ones prompted by chemicals, and without the benefit of understanding why they're happening, they almost demand to be assinged to a higher power. I think this is the true underpinning of all religion today, a misunderstanding of personal epiphanies experienced by influential people over the history of mankind, misused to control the masses, since they will always have a profound sense of commonality and truth to them when explained... they tap into a zetigeist. People want to share in something that they may have only gotten glimpses into themselves without artificial aid. There is a compelling urge to 'buy in', and this allows personal epiphanies to grow into full-blown religions.
In any case, I'd love the discussion to shed what I feel is a false dichotomy, that faith is a consequence of abandoning a lack of belief, and vice-versa. Faith is, in my mind, the default for most, and lack of faith, while often the consequence of a rational analysis of religion, is also a default for the lucky few who don't have to go through the painful process of abandoning what they were brought up with.
Message edited by author 2008-11-03 15:35:29. |
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11/03/2008 02:08:57 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I feel I was lucky to grow up in a house with two agnostic parents that came from two families who practiced a quiet, personal faith, as opposed to a loud, demonstrative faith, and was given the space to see things from the outside. How many agnostics or atheists started off like me, I can't say ... |
At least one more ...
Originally posted by Mousie:
... it is their upbrining that instilled a particular worldview ... |
Is that like baptism in salt-water? ;-)
(PS: same typo lower down, too.) |
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11/03/2008 02:15:13 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
...lack of faith...is also a default for the lucky few who don't have to go through the painful process of abandoning what they were brought up with. |
That accounts for a small minority of atheists (Alex is one). I would suggest the majority are reformed believers. In my case, I was well on the way to the seminary before I woke up.
I don't think that everyone, myself included, necessarily argues with the most eloquence when it comes to the reasons for atheism (which to me seems like a strange turn of phrase these days), and so discussions like this are inevitable tit-for-tat arguments that really lead nowhere, as far as the fine points are concerned. Nobody's going to convince anyone else of their position, and no "conversions" are likely. I would think these threads serve mostly to flex the argument muscles of the participants. They likely, ironically, lead to stronger already-held positions, as I suspect is the case with  DrAchoo for example. If you can get somebody to open a bloody book once in a while through your participation, all the better.
Incidentally, the argument against agnosticism is best laid out by Sam Harris in The End of Faith, and to a lesser degree in Julian Baggini's Atheism. |
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11/03/2008 02:32:57 PM · #88 |
Has anyone read "50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God" by Guy P. Harrison?
My son's just finished it so I plan to borrow it. He found it very interesting, so I have to read so we can discuss :) |
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11/03/2008 02:41:43 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Has anyone read "50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God" by Guy P. Harrison?
My son's just finished it so I plan to borrow it. He found it very interesting, so I have to read so we can discuss :) |
Sounds interesting, thanks. Here it is at Amazon (US), here at Amazon Canada. |
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11/03/2008 02:45:44 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... it is their upbrining that instilled a particular worldview ... |
Is that like baptism in salt-water? ;-)
(PS: same typo lower down, too.) |
We do that to our briskets! :)
Message edited by author 2008-11-03 14:47:01. |
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11/03/2008 04:14:40 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by Jac:
A perfect world without any mention of a god. Utopia. |
I feel a belief that left to its own devices mankind will bring forth a utopia is just about as misguided as believing in a god.
Doesn't history tell us that when left to it's own devices mankind invents tools of control to oppress the many for the good of the few? Religion is just one of them.
Why do you feel that in the absence of religion utopia would result? Where's all this altruism and good will coming from? Good parenting? |
Yes. |
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11/03/2008 04:19:09 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I realized that just because some people worshiped God this way didn't mean that God didn't exist but just that they (the people) had it wrong what God wanted from them. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This bugs me....
I very much believe in God, and the relationship I have with Him/Her/Whatever, has NOTHING whatsoever with what you, or anyone else has as far as their relationship with God.
I don't buy it for one second that God needs, or wants, any of the strange creatures that we are as his emissaries.
Why would he need or want that? By nature, humans are not going to take well the idea that another human being has the right to tell them what to do.
And someone's going to tell ME how I am going to have a relationship with the God of my understanding?????
I don't think so!!!
I answer to God. Period.
Well.....and my wife, but that's a whole 'nother rant.
So how can anyone be wrong in their personal relationship with their guiding spiritual being, or whatever? |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I agree with you. My point is that just because you may see people doing what you consider to be wrong in the name of God that it does not nullify God or his existence. God is personal and has a personal relationship with each person in my view. |
Yeah, but I REALLY try hard not to project what I feel God wants onto anyone.....because I don't know what God wants for anyone else.
I am such an insignificant part of this infinite picture.....how do I know that someone who's doing something I might consider wrong isn't part of some other plan to make someone else shine?
Like when my sister's six month old died of SIDS at a day care.
What's up with that? Why should my nephew just up and die for no apparent reason?
Especially after my sister's first kid had to fighht to live his first six months because he was four months premature.
But she started a SIDS support network that encompassed most of the state where she lives that people who suffered as she did don't have to do it alone. Is that God's plan?
I don't know, and I don't really spend much time contemplating things that are of little importance relative to what I'm trying to figure out as my part in life.
So pretty much across the board, I really wonder why people think they can preach to me.
And I damn sure don't feel that I can, or should, preach to anyone.
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11/03/2008 04:51:32 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by Jac:
A perfect world without any mention of a god. Utopia. |
This seems like such a strong statement. But what is it even based on? I'm guessing a world without gods would be, at best, exactly the same as a world with gods.
And while I know this is Rant, I'm constantly amazed that people feel perfectly justified in using words like "crap" and "poison" to describe a system of belief held dear by so many people. Can we try to keep the personal words of denigration to a minimum? |
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11/03/2008 04:57:27 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And while I know this is Rant, I'm constantly amazed that people feel perfectly justified in using words like "crap" and "poison" to describe a system of belief held dear by so many people. Can we try to keep the personal words of denigration to a minimum? |
No kidding, Doc. It literally blows my mind. It would never occur to me to "call out" someone for his beliefs, whatever they are. I can't understand why anyone would do it. I am SO naive...
R. |
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11/03/2008 05:01:09 PM · #95 |
But "poison" accurately describes what some people think of faith. And the thrust of the books by the Hydra (Harris-Dawkins-Hitchens-Dennett) is the suggestion that religion is the only area of discourse where people are made to walk on eggshells at the risk of bruised feelings, despite the importance to some people of promoting faith as a kind of poison, for example. Finally, calling faith "poison" is not an attack on anyone personally. (Some might even be motivated to feel sorry for people.)
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11/03/2008 05:04:20 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by Louis:
But "poison" accurately describes what some people think of faith homosexuality. And the thrust of the books by the Hydra (Harris-Dawkins-Hitchens-Dennett) is the suggestion that religion is the only area of discourse where people are made to walk on eggshells at the risk of bruised feelings, despite the importance to some people of promoting faithhomosexuality as a kind of poison, for example. Finally, calling faithhomosexuality "poison" is not an attack on anyone personally. (Some might even be motivated to feel sorry for people.) |
I altered your quote to try to make my point. I doubt that would be tolerated on the site. Nor should it. |
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11/03/2008 05:11:05 PM · #97 |
People can't help their homosexuality, nor can they reason their way out of it. The end of homosexuality doesn't usually come at the dawn of an enlightenment. Epiphanies of intellectualism are not attained by pursuing the opposite sex.
While I understand your personal feelings, my opinion is that the analogy is not apt, and that religion and faith are kinds of poison that harm individuals and societies. |
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11/03/2008 05:24:01 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Louis:
People can't help their homosexuality, nor can they reason their way out of it. The end of homosexuality doesn't usually come at the dawn of an enlightenment. Epiphanies of intellectualism are not attained by pursuing the opposite sex.
While I understand your personal feelings, my opinion is that the analogy is not apt, and that religion and faith are kinds of poison that harm individuals and societies. |
I've often heard on the threads that religion is merely a product of your upbringing. I'd counter that the individual can no more help what faith they are than being born homosexual. ;) |
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11/03/2008 05:28:54 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
People can't help their homosexuality, nor can they reason their way out of it. The end of homosexuality doesn't usually come at the dawn of an enlightenment. Epiphanies of intellectualism are not attained by pursuing the opposite sex.
While I understand your personal feelings, my opinion is that the analogy is not apt, and that religion and faith are kinds of poison that harm individuals and societies. |
I've often heard on the threads that religion is merely a product of your upbringing. I'd counter that the individual can no more help what faith they are than being born homosexual. ;) |
I couldn't agree more. |
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11/03/2008 05:29:28 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'd counter that the individual can no more help what faith they are than being born homosexual. ;) |
Beliefs are not a physical characteristic. I am naturally left handed, and while I could force myself to favor the right hand, it's not at all like questioning the validity of a belief. |
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