Belief in God, higher power, or neither

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/02/2008 12:14:47 PM · #51

Or, for a free source, Robert G. Ingersoll has many writings in the public domain and perhaps one of his best is Why I am Agnostic.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

11/02/2008 01:07:39 PM · #52

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I found these stats interesting so thought I'd share. I figure this would probably end up in rant so I started it here. Let me know what you think.

//www.gallup.com/video/109111/Majority-Americans-Believe-God.aspx

I'm curious. Did you come to this site to talk about religion/preach or to learn and discuss photography?

There appears to be no photo related activity on your account since August.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/02/2008 01:53:16 PM · #53

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I found these stats interesting so thought I'd share. I figure this would probably end up in rant so I started it here. Let me know what you think.

//www.gallup.com/video/109111/Majority-Americans-Believe-God.aspx

I'm curious. Did you come to this site to talk about religion/preach or to learn and discuss photography?

There appears to be no photo related activity on your account since August.

I'll answer this first. As most of you know if you have read my posts I have not been in a position to waste money and just recently have started a new job. When my rechargeable batteries that came with the camera died I have been unable to take pictures. I used my childs batteries he got in one of his birthday presents recently to enter one challenge but that's it. It won't be long and I will be able to participate in the photography once again on a regular basis. Probably the first of the year if not sooner... I've got a lot of bills to catch up. Thanks for your interest and concern.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

11/02/2008 01:53:55 PM · #54

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

It's the "evil" of that strong Jesuit education - you know rational thinking makes baby Jesus cry.

But seriously, I do think that, historically, Catholic schools - for all their other ills - did a relatively excellent job of educating the "souls" in their charge. Also, while Catholic dogma is often at strong odds with science and rationalism, many Catholic priests and Catholic colleges have excellent science backgrounds and have done some stellar research.

Since I'm of the mind that a strong science and rational thinking education absolutely undermines religious belief - a good thing, imnsho - the idea that so many Catholics that were given such education at an early age might end up being more likely to end up atheist wouldn't surprise me. Of course, without data - we're just whistling in the dark here.

Just a couple of notes on Catholic Education...
My son has been in Catholic school since he was five years old (he is now 16). So, for 11 years, he has had religion class once a day for at least 45 minutes. That 45 minutes was not limited to catholicism nor christianity. But, for at least the first 6 years, the main discussion was "what makes a good person?" the idea being that, no matter what religion, there is a 'base' understanding of what constitutes a good person. Morality and ethics were very important teachings and the reason I put my son in catholic school in the first place. From 7th grade on, religion class constituted a study of world religions, from paganism to taoism to native american pantheism.

Some of my son's friends went on to public high school; I heard the same story from almost all of them. At least one teacher, and often many, identified them as a product of catholic schools. And the teachers seemed to have seen that as a positive thing. It could have been the just a matter of the kids that my son hung out with but that teachers would be able to identify the type of early schooling various children had is interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, in 8th grade, my son decided not to be confirmed a roman catholic, though most all of his friends did (some were muslim, some were jewish; they also did not). My son now identifies himself as a Taoist, which he first learned about in Catholic school and later went on to investigate about for himself.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/02/2008 01:59:28 PM · #55

Originally posted by dahkota:

At least one teacher, and often many, identified them as a product of catholic schools. And the teachers seemed to have seen that as a positive thing. It could have been the just a matter of the kids that my son hung out with but that teachers would be able to identify the type of early schooling various children had is interesting, to say the least.

I'll echo that; our kids went to Parochial School through 8th grade, and they were a LOT better prepared for High School than most of their contemporaries. They also has a MUCH better grounding in the whole idea of morality than most of their contemporaries. And this WAS noticed by their teachers. At no time was Catholicism forced down their throats in Parochial School; easily a quarter to a third of the student body was not Catholic. World religions, in general, were studied, although admittedly there was proportionally more emphasis on Christianity.

I pretty strongly believe that good Parochial Schools could serve as a model for what education in this country OUGHT to be, not least of all because they absolutely do NOT let the kids get away with any shit whatsoever :-)

R.

11/02/2008 02:07:57 PM · #56

Originally posted by JMart:

Response redirected from this thread...
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by JH:
Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:
The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.

Seeing as their pedophile policy has solved nothing, I see this effort finishing with the same results.

Religion is always hiding its defects from the world. It's an amazing and troubling fact that so many people still believe what this religion dictates to the world. A bunch of homophobic pedophiles trying to tell the world what is right and what isn't is the biggest travesty this planet has tolerated for 2,000 years.

I'm embarrassed to be a human being with people like this trying to convince me that nature is wrong and that a higher order is what's important on this planet rather than respecting your fellow human being as what they are and moving on with your life. Isn't that what's it's all about folks?

Catholicism is on the same course as dinosaurs, extinction, but not soon enough.

I think that Catholicism has severely distorted the teachings of the Bible. I personally think that it is a mistake to assume that because man has distorted, corrupted, and misused religion that God does not exist. His existence does not rely upon our good behavior. Not looking for an argument here. Just pointing out that if you argue 'organized religion is crap therefore there must not be a God' that this is not a logical argument. I'll concede that there is little in the way of a logical argument that he exists either. It is a matter of faith.

Darren, I'd just like to clear up a few things about why many atheists reject God and help you understand that it's not just the homophobic and inhumane behavior that exists in the sects and fundamentally in the bible. But, this is a discussion better suited for this thread (and I'll paste a full response there).

First, just regarding Christianity, ALL sects of Christianity have distorted the Bible compared to their sister sects and none of them, not even "fundamentalists" actually follow the bible to the letter. Many atheists have read the Bible, and I'd bet a higher percentage of atheists have actually read the Bible than theists, and actually reading the Bible is one of the most significant gateways out of Christianity.

When an intellectually honest person reads the absurdities, injustices, cruelty, violence, intolerance, contradictions, and many other categories of Bronze Age ignorance that exist throughout the bible, it should lead to serious skepticism about the claims of divinity within the Bible. By the way, many of us recognized these problems before the luxury of the Internet and that was a painstaking process. Now, with sites like the one above, there's no excuse for remaining ignorant about the many problems with calling the Bible the "Word of God".

To make a long explanation short, recognizing the Bible as a work of man-made fiction (like a Michener novel but less entertaining and claiming to be a real account) it's sort of like catching your parents putting the "Santa" gifts under the Christmas tree, there's no going back to the ignorant belief that Santa is real.

Of course, many atheists who were Christians start by rejecting their Christianity, then explore other world religions, recognize how equally man-made they all clearly are, and then become agnostic or atheist eventually. It also helps to have a healthy understanding of physics, astrophysics, and evolutionary biology to recognize how ridiculous many religious notions are.

Bottom line: It's a wide area of knowledge that makes atheists reject the claims that there is any such thing as a God. Many of us are just amazed at how so many religious people turn a blind eye towards any clues and evidence that these claims of Gods come from the same place that claims about Santa Clause came from: They're made up by people.

I fully respect your point of view but you are wrong to think that all people who believe in God started that way and if they put enough brains and effort into the matter would eventually become atheist. If you read my posts in the forum thread you linked to "science and theology the sequel" you would know that I have come full circle from being an atheist and have put in many hours of study into the matter. I do understand your point of view and how you arrived at it and I'm not saying that you are irrational for having come to the conclusion that you have. I would wonder though why, just because you have come to that conclusion you would consider those who have had a spiritual awakening to be 'turning a blind eye' to the facts. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I haven't 'turned a blind eye' to anything. Just as your experience has led you to the position you now hold is it not possible that an equally diligent person could come to the opposite conclusion on a matter that has no definitiveness?

A point of interest: I do not teach my kids that Santa Claus is real for the very reason you state. He is not. If my experience had taught me that he was then I would teach them that also just as I teach them that God is real. I also let them know that there will come a day when they will have to make up their own minds on the matter.

11/02/2008 02:09:17 PM · #57

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
It's the "evil" of that strong Jesuit education - you know rational thinking makes baby Jesus cry.

But seriously, I do think that, historically, Catholic schools - for all their other ills - did a relatively excellent job of educating the "souls" in their charge. Also, while Catholic dogma is often at strong odds with science and rationalism, many Catholic priests and Catholic colleges have excellent science backgrounds and have done some stellar research.

Since I'm of the mind that a strong science and rational thinking education absolutely undermines religious belief - a good thing, imnsho - the idea that so many Catholics that were given such education at an early age might end up being more likely to end up atheist wouldn't surprise me. Of course, without data - we're just whistling in the dark here.

Just a couple of notes on Catholic Education...
My son has been in Catholic school since he was five years old (he is now 16). So, for 11 years, he has had religion class once a day for at least 45 minutes. That 45 minutes was not limited to catholicism nor christianity. But, for at least the first 6 years, the main discussion was "what makes a good person?" the idea being that, no matter what religion, there is a 'base' understanding of what constitutes a good person. Morality and ethics were very important teachings and the reason I put my son in catholic school in the first place. From 7th grade on, religion class constituted a study of world religions, from paganism to taoism to native american pantheism.

Some of my son's friends went on to public high school; I heard the same story from almost all of them. At least one teacher, and often many, identified them as a product of catholic schools. And the teachers seemed to have seen that as a positive thing. It could have been the just a matter of the kids that my son hung out with but that teachers would be able to identify the type of early schooling various children had is interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, in 8th grade, my son decided not to be confirmed a roman catholic, though most all of his friends did (some were muslim, some were jewish; they also did not). My son now identifies himself as a Taoist, which he first learned about in Catholic school and later went on to investigate about for himself.

That's quite a testament to your son's teachers. I recently heard a similar story from someone on The Atheist Experience TV Show. Someone on the show was describing a particular catholic school teacher that inspired him to ask the kind of probing questions that lead him to not become a Catholic. The teacher's intent, of course, was not to steer kids away from the church, rather, it sounds like he was trying to get the kids to think with some healthy skepticism and decide whether or not to embrace church doctrine from a point of having a little better understanding of where various ideas and doctrines came from. On the flip side, he also explained that the particular teacher was fired by the school, but I'm not sure I can trust that the person telling the story had all the facts in that matter.

I believe your story points to some glaring problems with not only our public schools, but also the diminished value some of our society has placed on education. It's a little easier to instill the reverence for education when paying for a private school and when the kids around you come from families that can afford, and value that educational experience. In the public schools, on the other hand, we educate everyone. Some kid's parents don't care much for the schools, some are very hands off, and many just don't care if their kids are trying their best or not. So, a school to school comparison between most public and private schools is not without problems.

11/02/2008 02:30:03 PM · #58

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I never said that all people who believe in a god started that way, however, since you bring it up, most people do in fact adopt the religion they are taught by their parents which is particularly evident when you look at how very regionalized world religions are. This brings up another point for why I reject Christian notions of a god. It would be incredibly immoral to punish most of the people that have ever existed in the world through most of history because of the circumstances of when and where they were born. Not to mention the immoral notion of punishing people infinitely for their finite crimes.

As for the "brains" matter. Intelligent people are certainly among the religious but I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why I should believe the claims of religious people. Every argument I've ever heard relies on logical fallacies and/or bad information. If you have a compelling reason why I should not reject supernatural claims then I'd be glad to learn what they are.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

If you read my posts in the forum thread you linked to "science and theology the sequel" you would know that I have come full circle from being an atheist and have put in many hours of study into the matter. I do understand your point of view and how you arrived at it and I'm not saying that you are irrational for having come to the conclusion that you have. I would wonder though why, just because you have come to that conclusion you would consider those who have had a spiritual awakening to be 'turning a blind eye' to the facts. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I haven't 'turned a blind eye' to anything. Just as your experience has led you to the position you now hold is it not possible that an equally diligent person could come to the opposite conclusion on a matter that has no definitiveness?

Actually, I would say that there is definitively an answer to the question of whether or not God exists. I don't really care how much you claim to have studied the matter because I have heard WAY too many frauds and charlatans among the Christian ranks try using this sort of appeal to their authority only to find that they are just posers who don't know jack squat about the fundamental arguments for and against religion. As for you discussions in other forums, I have read plenty of what you've written and you seem to revel in logical fallacies which has been pointed out many times before by other posters.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

A point of interest: I do not teach my kids that Santa Claus is real for the very reason you state. He is not. If my experience had taught me that he was then I would teach them that also just as I teach them that God is real. I also let them know that there will come a day when they will have to make up their own minds on the matter.

Good for you on the Santa decision. Now you should just go 1 imaginary character further and let them know that God is also make-believe ;)

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

11/02/2008 03:09:20 PM · #59

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I don't have a problem with my 3yo believing that Santa Claus is 'real' - Because I know that in a few years he'll figure out for himself that Santa doesn't exist. And I see no harm in him innocently enjoying the magic of Christmas while he's young (well, the presents mostly!)

I'll let him make up his own mind on the existence of a creator, it's my job to ensure he's equipped with good critical thinking skills to reach his conclusions. I'm not going to pollute that process by telling him biblical fairy tales he'll find difficult to resolve in years to come.

Message edited by author 2008-11-02 15:10:00.

citymars

Nikon D700

11/02/2008 04:29:42 PM · #60

Saw this on a billboard today:

Leviticus:
â��When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself...â��

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

11/02/2008 05:06:17 PM · #61

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/02/2008 05:11:31 PM · #62

Originally posted by citymars:

Is that a Biblical quote or a promo piece for Mork and Mindy? ;-)

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/02/2008 05:30:31 PM · #63

Originally posted by dahkota:

Some of my son's friends went on to public high school; I heard the same story from almost all of them. At least one teacher, and often many, identified them as a product of catholic schools. And the teachers seemed to have seen that as a positive thing.

Wow...not in my neighborhood.

The kids that went to Catholic School by me, were wicked mean. I spent a good portion of time trying not to get my ass kicked from the 3rd Grade up until the 6th.

On Halloween you could get your ass kicked up to 6 maybe 7 times...if you were one of the lucky ones.

When they were setting things on fire, breaking windshields or shoplifting we did have some quiet moments and peace. When they weren't involved in those extra curricular activities...look the hell out. lol

A few kids made the character Ace from the movie Stand By Me look sweet.

Message edited by author 2008-11-02 17:44:27.

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

11/03/2008 12:01:12 AM · #64

Originally posted by JMart:

It would be incredibly immoral to punish most of the people that have ever existed in the world through most of history because of the circumstances of when and where they were born. Not to mention the immoral notion of punishing people infinitely for their finite crimes

What you are saying is simply not the case. God will not punish people unjustly. He is a God of righteousness. In regard to the notion of infinity of punishment: doesn't your view of life punish you infinitely whether or not you have committed any crime at all by the infinity that is death. It is no different with God. If you choose not to accept his grace and acknowledge him then your name is blotted out of the book of life. You will simply cease to exist. There will be no after life for you. It will be exactly as you expect and it will be eternal. That is absolutely not unjust. You have obviously been given plenty of opportunity to accept God and have chosen to reject him for the reasons you have stated. It is your own choice then and not God's. For those who have not had this opportunity in life, it will be given to them in death. They will be judged each according to their deeds.

Originally posted by JMart:

As for the "brains" matter. Intelligent people are certainly among the religious but I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why I should believe the claims of religious people. Every argument I've ever heard relies on logical fallacies and/or bad information. If you have a compelling reason why I should not reject supernatural claims then I'd be glad to learn what they are.

I do not have a logical reason (not one that would pass scientific muster anyway)that you should believe. That is the nature of spiritual matters though. They do not conform to verification by scientific inquiry. I mentioned having a spiritual awakening.. this cannot be proved or disproved but simply is a fact of my consciousness. Opening myself up to the possibility of God's existence he has made himself known to me. It's just like it said in the Bible. I knocked and he answered. Perhaps the fact that you see God as an unjust punisher of people is hindering you. Maybe if you would see that if people proclaiming all of these terrible things were simply distorting God and who he is for their own benefit instead of ascribing their characteristics upon God then he would make himself known to you as well. Just a thought.

Originally posted by JMart:

Good for you on the Santa decision. Now you should just go 1 imaginary character further and let them know that God is also make-believe ;)

I realize that I am not going to change your mind on this matter as you are obviously a self directed and intelligent human being capable of coming to your own conclusions as you obviously have. It is not my intention to try and change your mind either but simply to give a glimpse into my mind and allow you to see things from my perspective. I could no more tell my children that God does not exist than I could tell them that air does not exist. I know both to exist with certainty. I don't expect my certainty to sway anyone necessarily but ask yourself why someone who was a devout atheist, and I was, would come to believe as I do now. There are no scientific reasons or logical arguments that I can give for this certainty that I have and I am sure that is the end of it as far as you are concerned. I think that is a mistake.

one2one

Olympus E-5

11/03/2008 01:15:08 AM · #65

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by JMart:

It would be incredibly immoral to punish most of the people that have ever existed in the world through most of history because of the circumstances of when and where they were born. Not to mention the immoral notion of punishing people infinitely for their finite crimes

What you are saying is simply not the case. God will not punish people unjustly. He is a God of righteousness. In regard to the notion of infinity of punishment: doesn't your view of life punish you infinitely whether or not you have committed any crime at all by the infinity that is death. It is no different with God. If you choose not to accept his grace and acknowledge him then your name is blotted out of the book of life. You will simply cease to exist. There will be no after life for you. It will be exactly as you expect and it will be eternal. That is absolutely not unjust. You have obviously been given plenty of opportunity to accept God and have chosen to reject him for the reasons you have stated. It is your own choice then and not God's. For those who have not had this opportunity in life, it will be given to them in death. They will be judged each according to their deeds.

Originally posted by JMart:

As for the "brains" matter. Intelligent people are certainly among the religious but I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why I should believe the claims of religious people. Every argument I've ever heard relies on logical fallacies and/or bad information. If you have a compelling reason why I should not reject supernatural claims then I'd be glad to learn what they are.

I do not have a logical reason (not one that would pass scientific muster anyway)that you should believe. That is the nature of spiritual matters though. They do not conform to verification by scientific inquiry. I mentioned having a spiritual awakening.. this cannot be proved or disproved but simply is a fact of my consciousness. Opening myself up to the possibility of God's existence he has made himself known to me. It's just like it said in the Bible. I knocked and he answered. Perhaps the fact that you see God as an unjust punisher of people is hindering you. Maybe if you would see that if people proclaiming all of these terrible things were simply distorting God and who he is for their own benefit instead of ascribing their characteristics upon God then he would make himself known to you as well. Just a thought.

Originally posted by JMart:
Good for you on the Santa decision. Now you should just go 1 imaginary character further and let them know that God is also make-believe ;)

I realize that I am not going to change your mind on this matter as you are obviously a self directed and intelligent human being capable of coming to your own conclusions as you obviously have. It is not my intention to try and change your mind either but simply to give a glimpse into my mind and allow you to see things from my perspective. I could no more tell my children that God does not exist than I could tell them that air does not exist. I know both to exist with certainty. I don't expect my certainty to sway anyone necessarily but ask yourself why someone who was a devout atheist, and I was, would come to believe as I do now. There are no scientific reasons or logical arguments that I can give for this certainty that I have and I am sure that is the end of it as far as you are concerned. I think that is a mistake.

Bold is mine. It reminds me of a song I was once taught.

He's making a list, checking it twice
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice
God will let you into, his town... ok I changed the words but the hidden message is the same.

As for the I know both to exist with certainty comment, I would love to have known you as an atheist, you must have been one for all the wrong reasons and that's why you're a religionist today. Also, as a response to this comment; ask yourself why someone who was a devout atheist, and I was, would come to believe as I do now. I think you are on a personal journey of enlightenment that will most probably bring you back to your core beliefs that a god does not exist.

Have you read any mythology? Doesn't the Greek's conviction to the belief in mythology make you think that maybe the same crap is being repeated under different names? Or do you believe that Zeus still watches over all of us from Mt. Olympus? Religion as we know it today is just a belief system used by the rich and powerful to control the masses. It's been said many times before but deserves repeating once in a while. ;] If it weren't for peer pressure, community pressure and family pressure, religion would be a thing of the past, just like astrology (it was once thought to be a precise science until branching off from astronomy, or was it the other way around?), propitiation, code of Hammurabi, witch hunts, etc.

What was the defining moment for your acceptance of Christianity after being a non-believer for so many years?

Message edited by author 2008-11-03 01:39:31.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

11/03/2008 01:20:40 AM · #66

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Let me know what you think.

I think most Americans lie to the pollsters on questions like this.

During the 1970's energy crisis, an American poll included a question asking people if they had installed a thermidor on their cars to save gas. A significant percentage (I don't remember the exact number) said they had. Thermidor is a way of cooking lobster. People have a tendency to say anything for approval, especially on hot button topics like religion or racism. A recent Newsweek poll found that 40% of atheists and agnostics believe God either created humans as-is or actively guided their evolution. Oh yeah, THAT sounds legit. :-/

just like how you always fill up the "religion" section of your application form eventho you dont have anything to write there - conformance! ;)

BeeCee

Nikon D40

11/03/2008 01:54:28 AM · #67

Originally posted by crayon:

just like how you always fill up the "religion" section of your application form eventho you dont have anything to write there - conformance! ;)

Applications for what? They're not allowed to ask it on job applications.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

11/03/2008 03:39:42 AM · #68

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by crayon:

just like how you always fill up the "religion" section of your application form eventho you dont have anything to write there - conformance! ;)

Applications for what? They're not allowed to ask it on job applications.

school... they have religious classes for specific ones :/

Apple iPhone 5

11/03/2008 05:20:18 AM · #69

Originally posted by dponlyme:

It is no different with God. If you choose not to accept his grace and acknowledge him then your name is blotted out of the book of life. You will simply cease to exist. There will be no after life for you. It will be exactly as you expect and it will be eternal.

Is the thought of ceasing to exist really that frightening? - Sometimes I think the enormity of this idea is what drives people to embrace religion.

You die. Your brain ceases to function. The neuron activity stops. Your brain cells start to die off. Everything that was ever 'you'; your memories, your consciousness, your personality dies with your brain. That's it, the end.

You return to the state you were in before you were conceived. That of not existing.

11/03/2008 06:19:26 AM · #70

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
It is no different with God. If you choose not to accept his grace and acknowledge him then your name is blotted out of the book of life. You will simply cease to exist. There will be no after life for you. It will be exactly as you expect and it will be eternal.

Is the thought of ceasing to exist really that frightening? - Sometimes I think the enormity of this idea is what drives people to embrace religion.

You die. Your brain ceases to function. The neuron activity stops. Your brain cells start to die off. Everything that was ever 'you'; your memories, your consciousness, your personality dies with your brain. That's it, the end.

You return to the state you were in before you were conceived. That of not existing.

I am not scared of death. The very punishment that a lot of atheists say we condemn them to by Christian beliefs is really nothing more than dying the second death. First your body dies and then when you are judged by God then your soul dies if you have chosen to reject him. If you didn't like God before dying the first death then wouldn't it be preferable to be out of his presence by ceasing to exist anyway?

Interesting the way you word the last sentence. It's almost as if you are saying 'you' existed when conceived and not just a mass of cells that just happened to end up being what 'you' were made out of.

11/03/2008 06:33:17 AM · #71

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Don't know if you've read your Bible lately, but mine says, according to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." see Matthew 13:23-30, and in Revelation it tells us that All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (Revelations 21:8). So, either you don't believe the Bible is accurate or you just don't know what it threatens about supposed punishment in the after life.

Also, with regard to you claim that everyone who has not had this "opportunity" in life I have two thing to point out. First, and again, you either are ignorant of the bible or don't believe it because it very clearly states that we are all sinners and have all fallen short of the glory of God, yadda yadda, yadda, somewhere in Romans, I believe the 3rd chapter, and that's just the most famous verse I can cite off the top of my head. God clearly does not allow ignorance as an excuse according to the bible. Furthermore, even what you propose would be incredibly unjust if I'm damned for eternity because I grew up in a culture surrounded by Christians and someone else gets to be judged on different scale because they grew up in a time or place where Christianity did not exist? That's a lame concept of justice indeed.

I'll be glad to just die away into nothing and I have no fear of it. I am enjoying life magnificently despite the fact that I did not exist for countless eons before I was born and I will not exist after I die. In the words of the great philosopher Epicurus:
Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?
Death is not a strong enough tool for religion to use to manipulate people, so it resorts to threatening people with supposed eternal torture after death so as to really scare folks into submission. It's shameful and immoral.

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Good try, but I was as open to God as anyone when I was a youth. I wanted to be a pastor up until I read the entire bible, studied world religions, studied physics and astrophysics, and realized that everything my religion claimed to be from a god was actually invented by ignorant men, but I was without a doubt, an open hearted believer.

As for you assertion that these religious questions can not be proven or disproven, then what good are they? If the "spirit realm" has no measurable impact on reality (which would therefore make it provable), then it can have no impact on the lives of those of us in reality and it is therefore meaningless. What really amazes me is that I know from experience that, behind closed doors, believers talk at length about dealing with doubt and it is one of the principle jobs of religious leaders to help people cope with doubt. Doubt is SO strong among believers. Until, that is, they are talking to someone who is a skeptic. All of a sudden you people become SO sure that God is real and your doubts suddenly vanish. I say you're all full of BS when you talk so confidently about what you "know". An honest person would just say, "...this is what I really, really, really, want to believe is true and nothing you say will change my mind."

I, on the other hand, am fully open to reasons I should change my mind and I have been very open to God "making himself known" to me. If there is a god out there then that might be one of the most important things I could know and I'd like to know if one of the many religions out there is "The One". As things stand, there is a mountain of evidence and reasoning that point to all religions being fictional man-made stories and all I get as a rebuttal is condescending suppositions that science can't measure these things and my heart must just not be open enough to God. That's a convenient way to argue, and I could make the same arguments for any existing religion and any religion I choose to make up and you would be powerless to rebut my claims.

My question for you is this: Are you truly open to admitting you might be wrong? You don't need to answer for anyone but yourself and that might help keep you honest with yourself.

Apple iPhone 5

11/03/2008 06:35:49 AM · #72

Originally posted by dponlyme:

If you didn't like God before dying the first death then wouldn't it be preferable to be out of his presence by ceasing to exist anyway?

It's not about 'not liking' god - How can you like or dislike something that doesn't exist? It's not as if I'm hoping to not exist when I die just so I don't have to face eternity with god. The simple fact is when my brain dies, I die. There is no 'final judgment' for some imaginary part of my body that somehow continues to live on after the rest of me dies.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Interesting the way you word the last sentence. It's almost as if you are saying 'you' existed when conceived and not just a mass of cells that just happened to end up being what 'you' were made out of.

I picked conception as an arbitrary moment to identify the start of someones existence (or potential existence). Of course, development of consciousness/identity/personality/memories occurs at a later stage.

11/03/2008 06:39:24 AM · #73

Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by JMart:

It would be incredibly immoral to punish most of the people that have ever existed in the world through most of history because of the circumstances of when and where they were born. Not to mention the immoral notion of punishing people infinitely for their finite crimes

What you are saying is simply not the case. God will not punish people unjustly. He is a God of righteousness. In regard to the notion of infinity of punishment: doesn't your view of life punish you infinitely whether or not you have committed any crime at all by the infinity that is death. It is no different with God. If you choose not to accept his grace and acknowledge him then your name is blotted out of the book of life. You will simply cease to exist. There will be no after life for you. It will be exactly as you expect and it will be eternal. That is absolutely not unjust. You have obviously been given plenty of opportunity to accept God and have chosen to reject him for the reasons you have stated. It is your own choice then and not God's. For those who have not had this opportunity in life, it will be given to them in death. They will be judged each according to their deeds.

Originally posted by JMart:

As for the "brains" matter. Intelligent people are certainly among the religious but I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why I should believe the claims of religious people. Every argument I've ever heard relies on logical fallacies and/or bad information. If you have a compelling reason why I should not reject supernatural claims then I'd be glad to learn what they are.

I do not have a logical reason (not one that would pass scientific muster anyway)that you should believe. That is the nature of spiritual matters though. They do not conform to verification by scientific inquiry. I mentioned having a spiritual awakening.. this cannot be proved or disproved but simply is a fact of my consciousness. Opening myself up to the possibility of God's existence he has made himself known to me. It's just like it said in the Bible. I knocked and he answered. Perhaps the fact that you see God as an unjust punisher of people is hindering you. Maybe if you would see that if people proclaiming all of these terrible things were simply distorting God and who he is for their own benefit instead of ascribing their characteristics upon God then he would make himself known to you as well. Just a thought.

Originally posted by JMart:
Good for you on the Santa decision. Now you should just go 1 imaginary character further and let them know that God is also make-believe ;)

I realize that I am not going to change your mind on this matter as you are obviously a self directed and intelligent human being capable of coming to your own conclusions as you obviously have. It is not my intention to try and change your mind either but simply to give a glimpse into my mind and allow you to see things from my perspective. I could no more tell my children that God does not exist than I could tell them that air does not exist. I know both to exist with certainty. I don't expect my certainty to sway anyone necessarily but ask yourself why someone who was a devout atheist, and I was, would come to believe as I do now. There are no scientific reasons or logical arguments that I can give for this certainty that I have and I am sure that is the end of it as far as you are concerned. I think that is a mistake.

Bold is mine. It reminds me of a song I was once taught.

He's making a list, checking it twice
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice
God will let you into, his town... ok I changed the words but the hidden message is the same.

As for the I know both to exist with certainty comment, I would love to have known you as an atheist, you must have been one for all the wrong reasons and that's why you're a religionist today. Also, as a response to this comment; ask yourself why someone who was a devout atheist, and I was, would come to believe as I do now. I think you are on a personal journey of enlightenment that will most probably bring you back to your core beliefs that a god does not exist.

Have you read any mythology? Doesn't the Greek's conviction to the belief in mythology make you think that maybe the same crap is being repeated under different names? Or do you believe that Zeus still watches over all of us from Mt. Olympus? Religion as we know it today is just a belief system used by the rich and powerful to control the masses. It's been said many times before but deserves repeating once in a while. ;] If it weren't for peer pressure, community pressure and family pressure, religion would be a thing of the past, just like astrology (it was once thought to be a precise science until branching off from astronomy, or was it the other way around?), propitiation, code of Hammurabi, witch hunts, etc.

What was the defining moment for your acceptance of Christianity after being a non-believer for so many years?

I think you've really hit on something here. Satan is an imitator of God. He wants you to worship him or at the very least not worship God. Santa Claus, I believe, is a trick of the devil to get your eyes off of God and Jesus and focus on things (presents). It's been a wildly successful ploy.

What exactly are the wrong reasons to be an atheist? I personally like the one that is the truth. I was wrong. I was arrogant. I was foolish. The reasons I would have stated in my atheist days would have included: If I couldn't prove it with science I rejected it. If the church was representative of God then there was no God because the church has done so much wrong. Religion is used to control people and that is its true intended purpose. If God existed then why would a good and just God allow so much suffering in the world? If there were one true God then why so many different religions both past and present with multiple gods and gods that differ so greatly from each other... and on and on and on. In short... all of the same arguments that I get from those who are currently atheist. There is nothing new under the sun here.

The defining moment was a spiritual awakening. It came as a result of arguing with Christians about the existence of God. You can read all about it in the science and theology II the sequel thread. I believe it is posted in the first couple of pages of that thread if you are truly interested.