| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/19/2008 11:34:25 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by ryand:
I could quite easily change those words to make them sound better for my side. For example: "senility or youthfulness" to "Wisdom or inexperience", now my candidate sounds better (not that I really support McCain, but you get the point I think). |
Except that senility/youthfulness are in fact opposites, whereas wisdom/inexperience are not. We all know plenty of stupid old farts and preternaturally wise youngsters, I'm sure?
Not that this really changes your argument (OP's laundry list of attribute apposites is all slogan and no content, agreed) but you can come up with a better example :-)
R. |
Yes. And having done something a long time does not necessarily mean you are doing it well. My dad likes to say something along the lines of "Many people claim as experience what they have been doing wrong for 40 years.". ;-)
Read Obama's speech on Iraq in 2002. You will realize that his predictions were spot-on. As opposed to those of the administration.
Obama in 2002: "I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda."
This shows judgement, wisdom, knowledge.
Yes, my list has a slogan-like quality, I agree. But it is all based on facts. Objective facts. I gave some in the long post above. One day I'll write a longer laundry list with extensive footnotes. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 11:54:20 AM · #127 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
ok one very important issue that the "liberals" have enforced is no drilling. That is one reason (not the only reason) the gas prices are so high. Also the reason we have not had any new nuclear reactors "clean energy" in the last 30 years is because of the liberls. Now all of a sudden there is a rush for new reactors...etc. The list goes on but frankly I don't have time to go into it right now.... |
Yea, gas prices are high...it sucks. Drilling just f's up the environment...you know, that green thing?
If green energy picks up, then drilling slows down, and shipping overseas stops, meaning oil spills stop, meaning that green stuff doesn't get covered in that black stuff. Besides, the only reason the people who drill that black stuff drill it is FOR the green stuff (but not the good green stuff, no, the other green stuff that makes you filthy rich (but not rich like oil, rich like wealthy.) Hah, sorry , I got carried away with how many ways you can talk about oil, money and the environment in terms of colors. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 01:00:10 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
Isn't this priceless? Advocating the theft of another country's resources, then threatening them with nuclear warfare if they dare resist.
To think that some people have the temerity to dislike American foreign policies... it boggles the mind.
Ray |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 01:16:38 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
When I look at this chart Oil Importsand consider the gunboat diplomacy advocated by people such as Coronav, I start to worry.
Ray
Message edited by author 2008-08-20 07:39:06. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 01:49:03 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
Isn't this priceless? Advocating the theft of another country's resources, then threatening them with nuclear warfare if they dare resist.
To think that some people have the temerity to dislike American foreign policies... it boggles the mind.
Ray |
I know the US foreign policy is not the best but in no way would coronamv's idea be considered as a US policy. It is just one mans idiotic suggestion and please don't lump me in with his ideas. Not everyone in the US thinks like that.
:-)
Message edited by author 2008-08-19 13:59:52. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 01:50:04 PM · #131 |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 02:21:55 PM · #132 |
That CNN article is pretty near the mark. I think the last two paragraphs are most apropos. After noting how McCain graduated 894th in a class of 899 at the Naval Academy at Annapolis, how he fails to think on his feet, how he is adept at delivering punchlines but embarasses himself on the issues, and how he has been repeating himself for the last year while offering nothing of substance, Cafferty says:
"[George Bush] will leave office with the country $10 trillion in debt, fighting two wars, our international reputation in shambles, our government cloaked in secrecy and suspicion that his entire presidency has been a litany of broken laws and promises, our citizens' faith in our own country ripped to shreds. Yet Bush goes bumbling along, grinning and spewing moronic one-liners, as though nobody understands what a colossal failure he has been.
I fear to the depth of my being that John McCain is just like him." |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 02:38:04 PM · #133 |
| Why is it that any thread that uses the word "conservative" or "liberal" ends up an argument about U.S politics?? |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 02:45:04 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Why is it that any thread that uses the word "conservative" or "liberal" ends up an argument about U.S politics?? |
Because the two terms are mainly used to characterize the two predominant political factions in the US and their ideologies? |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 03:03:56 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
Isn't this priceless? Advocating the theft of another country's resources, then threatening them with nuclear warfare if they dare resist.
To think that some people have the temerity to dislike American foreign policies... it boggles the mind.
Ray |
I'd watch what I said and how I said it unless you want a certain country to bomb you, take your maple syrup and ban the use of "eh". |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 03:09:02 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
I'm shocked to see how uninformed or misinformed many Americans are. Most Europeans know more about your candidates and their policies than the average American. Why is that?
[quote=trevytrev]This year you have the choice between continuing the politics of the past eight years or taking a new path.
McCain is not Bush and this is just a clever ploy by the DNC and The Obama Party to move McCain as close to Bush as possible b/c of his low approval rating. |
McCain has voted with Bush 95% of the time. He vowed to continue his policies. They keep praising each other. They share many advisors.
He has sided with the president on many issue and his voting records shows that more now than it has in the past. There are still some very key differences. See this article here-NY Times At the same time Obama has voted with the president 40% of the time in 07 and 49% in 06. The real key issue I see with the two though is that McCain, in his senate career, has crossed party lines and bucked his party as low as 67% back in 02, all the while Obama is pretty much a straight party line voter since he has been in his Senate office. To be fair though, McCain has been close to 90% with the republican party in 07.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Next:
Between focussing on the past or looking to the future.
Do you want to elaborate? Last Time I checked Obama keeps bringing up the last eight years while McCain keeps talking about winning the war in Iraq and Terror. Obama 's entire campaign is about the last eight years, not the future as you state. |
Obama's campaign is about taking a different direction. And on most issues, he is more directed towards the future than towards the past. Take energy, for example: He advocates investing into new sources of energy instead of continuing to rely on oil as we've done for the last decades.
Last time I checked McCain is for Nuclear energy among others and for getting off the dependency of foreign oil. Quite honostly I think both candidates could have better energy solutions but they both state a different direction is needed.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
next:
Starting new wars or ending old ones.
Just another false statement trying to scare people. When has McCain said that he is going to start another war? Plus, Obama wants to End the war but has seemed to change is stance on immediate withdrawl from Iraq. McCain wants to end the war to but not w/o victory, I agree. |
McCain has promised further wars, multiple times. He said he wouldn't mind staying in Iraq for 100 years. He sang "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran". His rhetoric aims at a new cold war with Russia. And about "winning" the war in Iraq: Please think about what that might even mean. What needs to happen for the war to be "won"? //www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJUCU1UH2w
Again, i don't see where he said that he was going to start another war. The Bomb, bomb Iran comment was trackless and was a ridiculous statement in jest, doesn't look good I agree, but I don't take that has wanting to start a war. Even Obama has said that he would not rule out military action on Iran, same thing, he uses tough talk about Iran when he stated " the regime is a threat to all of us". As for troops in Iraq for the next hundred years, we have many troops in foreign countries and I believe he was referring to the same status as those, military presence.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Next:
Making the rich richer and the poor poorer or promoting fairness.
Again, just politicis as usual. McCain as said that he will not raise taxes, on anyone. Now I disagree with this but I don't see how this makes the poor poorer. |
Consider this: //2.bp.blogspot.com/_hQFy9C-miC4/SJ748zAiMaI/AAAAAAAAEGc/rmBtaeREaaE/s1600-h/baracktax.gif
It shows who McCain cares for most. And it also shows that the attempt of the McCain campaign to make middle class Americans think Obama wants to raise their taxes is dishonest.
No different than any other politician spinning facts to suite their needs. As I said I don't really agree with his tax plan
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Next:
Hate and mistrust or compassion and respect.
Come on, really! Show me hate by either candidate other than for the others party. I disagree with both's views on Gay marriage but I don't classify them as hating, just different beliefs. Do you want to point out this hate you speak of. |
The basis of McCain's world view is that everyone is out to get us. We are right, they are wrong. We fight to conquer evil. He says things like "I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live.". Obama has a less simplistic world view. He has lived in other countries. He can see other people's point of view. He is willing to talk to leaders of other nations if this allows us to find solutions and prevent war, for example.
Can you give me any statement or phrase where McCain has stated that everyone is out to get us? He has talked about radical Islam but not "Everyone" as you state. As for Obama, sure he has lived in other countries but I don't think that shows compassion or respect, you are just assuming this gives him some edge. Some would say that going to a church that was run by a pastor who used racial hatred and despise for the white America was condoning that hatred.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Next:
Mudslinging and smears or a productive discussion of the issues
Again, both side have and do partake in this, unfortunately this is politics in America, Lowest common denominator. |
Obama has successfully abstained from the dirty campaign tactics we got to know, both in the primaries and in the general election. The other side hasn't. They keep spreading lies about Obama (him being a Muslim, his wife's alleged remarks, that he wants to raise taxes for low-income families, etc.) and in their ads they focus on unfairly attacking Obama (you have seen the "celebrity" ones). Obama on the other hand focuses on the issues.
It's not McCain's campaign throwing out the attack adds about his wife and the muslim issue and he has publicly chastised those adds. As for the silly misleading adds, yup, politics as usual and both the DNC and RNC are guilty of those.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
next:
Pessimism or optimism
Please, Obama has talked about every negative issue in this country and repeatably talked about losing the war in Iraq. Can you show me where McCain is pessimistic? |
"There will be other wars, my friends." is something I would consider a pessimistic remark (at least for ordinary people, Halliburton might see this differently). McCain's message is "It's tough and we'll have to fight hard and make sacrifices. Life will be unpleasant, but we have to do what we have to do." while Obama's is more like "America is no longer as great as it used to be and as it could be. Let's work together to get our nation back to where it should be. Life will get better." (both not direct quotes, but my own summary of their messages as I perceive them).
Both candidates have said that there will have to be sacrifices and work to fix things. Obama on CNN sit down with the pastor Warren
"Well, you know what I would tell them? Is that solving big problems, like for example, energy, is not going to be easy and everybody is going to have to get involved. And we are going to have to all think about how are we using energy more efficiently and there's going to be a price to pay in transitioning to a more energy- efficient economy and dealing with issues like climate change. And if we pretend like everything is free, and there's no sacrifice involved, then we are betraying the tradition of America."
How is this any different than what McCain said?
As for the rest I don't have time and I'm kind of defending a guy that I might not even vote for, just trying to be fair with all this slant.
|
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:00:39 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by ryand:
I could quite easily change those words to make them sound better for my side. For example: "senility or youthfulness" to "Wisdom or inexperience", now my candidate sounds better (not that I really support McCain, but you get the point I think). |
Except that senility/youthfulness are in fact opposites, whereas wisdom/inexperience are not. We all know plenty of stupid old farts and preternaturally wise youngsters, I'm sure?
Not that this really changes your argument (OP's laundry list of attribute apposites is all slogan and no content, agreed) but you can come up with a better example :-)
R. |
Oh yeah, I completely agree with you, I wasn't going for a completely legitimate one, I was simply pointing out that I could do the same thing as he did.
eta: I'm gonna ignore this thread, I get pulled in too easily, had fun debating, hope I wasn't rude, if so, I apologize, I get caught up easily, but I'm out of here for now.
Message edited by author 2008-08-19 16:02:53.
|
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:02:12 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
Isn't this priceless? Advocating the theft of another country's resources, then threatening them with nuclear warfare if they dare resist.
To think that some people have the temerity to dislike American foreign policies... it boggles the mind.
Ray |
I'd watch what I said and how I said it unless you want a certain country to bomb you, take your maple syrup and ban the use of "eh". |
That last one wouldn't be such a bad thing. :-P |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:10:34 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I say we figure out a way to side drill into Saudi Arabia and park oil rigs off the coast in international waters with Nuclear subs aimed at anyone that comes near. |
Isn't this priceless? Advocating the theft of another country's resources, then threatening them with nuclear warfare if they dare resist.
To think that some people have the temerity to dislike American foreign policies... it boggles the mind.
Ray |
I'd watch what I said and how I said it unless you want a certain country to bomb you, take your maple syrup and ban the use of "eh". |
That last one wouldn't be such a bad thing. :-P |
We can take the rights to Strange Brew as well you hosers:) |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:11:07 PM · #140 |
 trevytrev, let me address your response quickly without getting the quotations of quotations too messy:
Voting record: Yes, McCain has crossed party lines in the past. And he used to be one of the more reasonable Republicans. However, now he's given up all of that, probably to pander to the evangelical base. I was very disappointed, for example, to see him support Bush's veto on banning so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" (waterboarding, sexual abuse, having dogs attack prisoners, etc.). McCain who himself suffered torture now supports the torturing of prisoners some of which are completely innocent? Doesn't seem like he values the Golden Rule much.
My point was that he vowed to continue the Bush policies. And this is a simple fact. He has now even adopted the Bush campaign style and has Karl Rove as an advisor.
Energy policies: I agree, both plans could be better. The main point here was about Obama being more interested in the future while McCain seems to be caught up in the past. I think McCain's experiences in Vietnam have a huge impact on his Iraq policies. I assume he's thinking something along the lines of "We are not giving up. Not this time.". Seeing this conflict as something personal is dangerous.
In addition, Obama has many ideas concerning technology and its use. He also supports net neutrality which is crucial for the free, uncensored flow of information on the Internet. McCain, on the other hand, has very limited knowledge of technology and does not even consider it a major issue. This is again a past vs. future thing.
Wars: Did you watch the Youtube clip? It contains a compilation of McCain statements on future wars. He promises them ("I have to tell you, there will be other wars."). And yes, Obama does not rule out military action, which I think is the reasonable thing to do. However, he does not consider it the first option.
Taxes:: You write "No different than any other politician spinning facts to suite their needs.". Yes. But the fact that others are doing it, too, doesn't make it better. Obama has tried to avoid such dirty tricks and he has been pretty successful at it. McCain's strategy is "It's always been done like this, it has worked, we'll continue doing it.". Obama's approach is more something like "I think it can be done differently, I think it can be done in a better way." and he proves it by doing so. By how he manages his campaign. By how he spends his money. By how he motivates his supporters. By how he deals with the issues. etc.
I think the way a candidate runs their campaign gives us valuable insight on how they will behave as president. People don't change overnight. Obama is trying to run an honest and transparent campaign. McCain relies on dirty tricks, lying and cheating. Just the other day at the Warren debate he claimed to have been in a "cone of silence" while Obama was being asked questions. The truth is that he wasn't even in the building yet and probably listening to Obama giving answers to the question McCain himself would be asked later, too. It's a well documented fact that he lied about his whereabouts. Do you think he would behave any differently once in office?
And coming back to the original topic: Did you see who benefits most from the McCain tax plan?
Mistrust: No, McCain has probably never said "Everyone is out to get us." directly in this form, but it's still the message he conveys with statements like "This is a dangerous world." etc.
About Wright: This is the guilt by association technique which is not really valid. And if you go and listen to more than just the 10 second youtube clips you will realize that what Wright said actually makes sense. It can only be interpreted as "hate" if you consider criticizing US policies as "hate" (check this out just to get an impression of what the US has been up to lately: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._foreign_interventions_since_1945). And yes, Wright is probably angry because he feels black people have often not been treated fairly and still aren't. Can you blame him?
Smears: It's not the McCain campaign who puts them into circulation? Who else should be interested in doing this? Hillary, you're right. But appart from her? The McCain campaign purposefully plays on the fears of people, also with that "Obama is the Anti-Christ" ad they did. Yes, they always make sure it's so close to the line that they can still deny everything. But the intent is obvious. Ads are expensive and you can be sure that every single word and image in them has been chosen very carefully and is there for a purpose.
Outlook: I think Obama's statement on energy is pretty honest. And yes, he says there will be some sacrifice involved. The difference is that Obama's general message is "We have to make an effort to make the world a better place." while McCains is more like "The world is a terrible place and if we don't fight we all die.". (I'm exaggerating here to show the contrast, I hope you understand that.) It's the difference between hope and fear.
I think that character is far more important than plans. Plans change (They always do. Remember how Bush promised a "humble" foreign policy during his 2000 campaign?), character doesn't. And Obama has shown character and understanding that is clearly superior to McCain's. One day I'll write the long version of my laundry list and include extensive footnotes (if I have the time. I'll let you know).
Read the article above about Obama (//www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0314obamamar14,0,7185898.story), I think it highlights one of his most important qualities. And do you remember the debate where Richardson started chatting with Obama because he thought he wouldn't be asked a question again soon? Well, Richardson was asked a question again, but he had not paid attention. Obama helped him out by whispering "Katrina, Katrina" and Richardson could talk about his Katrina policies and answer the question he had not heard. They were opponents at the time. Such little anecdotes show me that Obama is an honest and decent guy. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:25:39 PM · #141 |
SAM94720, I respect you opinion and agree with some of your statements and disagree with others. All I can do is study the issues and see who best fits my collective whole for what I think is best for this country and this world that my daughter will grow up in. FWIW, who ever is elected, regardless of who I voted for, I will hope that he succeeds and make this a better country and world to live in. I feel that to many people in this country, on both radical sides, hope and pray that the other political party fails just to makes things worse so their party can get in office next go round. To much divisiveness and not enough unity. Cheers.
Message edited by author 2008-08-19 16:25:57. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:51:21 PM · #142 |
| Someone actually wait more than one person took me seriously!!!! I love it! |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:53:22 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Someone actually wait more than one person took me seriously!!!! I love it! |
Cuz you didn't put the :-) in your post ...
;-P |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 04:54:22 PM · #144 |
| But first we need to annex all of Canada but Quebec. Those social pinko commies!!!! |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:00:45 PM · #145 |
Are we all so simple minded that you cannot figure it out?
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Someone actually wait more than one person took me seriously!!!! I love it! |
Cuz you didn't put the :-) in your post ...
;-P |
|
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:02:15 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Are we all so simple minded that you cannot figure it out? |
Interesting post this one is. Do I blast you for being an ass or just ignore it ...
:-P |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:03:48 PM · #147 |
| One from international waters 12 miles out slant drilling would be close to impossible. Two dont you think France, Russia and China would not come to stop us? You guys seem so imbittered at the world. |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:04:55 PM · #148 |
Actually I was referring to all of us as we and you as in all of us not you directly .Sorry for the confusion.
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Are we all so simple minded that you cannot figure it out? |
Interesting post this one is. Do I blast you for being an ass or just ignore it ...
:-P |
|
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:08:16 PM · #149 |
| Alrighty! (Puts the blaster back in the holster) :-P |
|
|
|
08/19/2008 05:15:14 PM · #150 |
LOL I was watching Family Guy Blue Harvest last night.
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Alrighty! (Puts the blaster back in the holster) :-P |
|
|
