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Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM

08/12/2008 03:18:23 AM · #126

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

You keep assuming that cutting welfare would motivate people to fend for themselves and improve their situation on their own. This may be true for some, but others are simply not able to get a job and earn their money themselves. What would those people do? They would either have to rely on different support, die or turn to crime.

You might want to have a look at the welfare policies, education levels and crime rates of different countries to compare. Start with the Scandinavian ones, Sweden for example.

I don't think that anyone here advocates "keeping people down". I fully support the "teach a man to fish" approach. However, some won't be able to fish for themselves.

Just started a new thread about the issue of punishment.

No. YOU keep assuming that I say to completely cut welfare out from under people. You are not paying attention!

We need to set up a system that allows them to make a better life for themselves. This would include..college (or vo tech)...housing and food until they graduate and get on their feet. I never said anything about leaving them to 'fend for themselves' without any help at all.

Sure..there will be people that CANT do it for themselves. But it is my belief that the GREAT MAJORITY of people on the current system are simply held back by the system. They can't get a job...because they will lose their foodstamps and be in the hole...the same with college....so they keep their crappy job and live off the government. That is no way to live. That isn't a life. Maybe you have never been through it....but I didn't feel like a man having to rely on the government for my food...and I don't think that those still in the system feel good about themselves in their current situation. We have to help them...not keep them down.

I personally am very thankful for the foodstamp system because it has allowed my family to stay together. Without it we would not have the resources to give our children a stable home life. I having been on foodstamps for quite a long while do not feel like the foodstamp system keeps me down. I am down for completely different reasons. I also do not feel ashamed to be on foodstamps. I don't want to be and I am working towards not being on foodstamps but I think you are completely misguided in thinking that foodstamps are some kind of motivator to stay where you are at financially. As far as welfare are you aware that for a single mother and two children she would have to go to 30Hrs a week minimum of job counseling (ie learning how to write a resume and interview etc) a week in order to get about $250/month.) Nobody is going to want to stay in that position any longer than they would have to. Welfare reform has just about made it impossible for anyone to survive on it. What will happen if all forms of public assistance are stopped or even more severely limited is a rise in the crime rate as people will have to turn to illegal ways to support themselves.

egamble

Canon EOS-7D

08/12/2008 08:10:36 AM · #127

Originally posted by dponlyme:

But they are. How is it motivating to get even a small increase in pay (relatively) and then have your food stamps reduced? That isn't any way to encourage people to get off the system. Instead of allowing the people a few months to actually get on their feet...the system requires an immediate notification if the pay increase rises a certain amount...they then cut your benefits in porportion. What message does that send? To me..it said...'dont work hard, because you will wind up eating less'.

--as for the job training. That is why the system needs to be improved. Just like I stated earlier.

--If people resort to illegal means..they deserve to be thrown in jail. There are no excuses for being a criminal.

08/12/2008 11:01:16 AM · #128

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I personally am very thankful for the foodstamp system because it has allowed my family to stay together. Without it we would not have the resources to give our children a stable home life. I having been on foodstamps for quite a long while do not feel like the foodstamp system keeps me down. I am down for completely different reasons. I also do not feel ashamed to be on foodstamps. I don't want to be and I am working towards not being on foodstamps but I think you are completely misguided in thinking that foodstamps are some kind of motivator to stay where you are at financially. As far as welfare are you aware that for a single mother and two children she would have to go to 30Hrs a week minimum of job counseling (ie learning how to write a resume and interview etc) a week in order to get about $250/month.) Nobody is going to want to stay in that position any longer than they would have to. Welfare reform has just about made it impossible for anyone to survive on it. What will happen if all forms of public assistance are stopped or even more severely limited is a rise in the crime rate as people will have to turn to illegal ways to support themselves.

But they are. How is it motivating to get even a small increase in pay (relatively) and then have your food stamps reduced? That isn't any way to encourage people to get off the system. Instead of allowing the people a few months to actually get on their feet...the system requires an immediate notification if the pay increase rises a certain amount...they then cut your benefits in porportion. What message does that send? To me..it said...'dont work hard, because you will wind up eating less'.

--as for the job training. That is why the system needs to be improved. Just like I stated earlier.

--If people resort to illegal means..they deserve to be thrown in jail. There are no excuses for being a criminal.

I'll agree that there is not much incentive to only gain a marginal increase in pay that would result in no real change in living standard. At some point though personal character has to kick in and you have to say to yourself I would rather earn it myself than have the government give it to me. I know that I would. I look toward not needing foodstamps at all and that the marginal increase in income is a step towards that. I also agree that it would benefit people more if there were more programs to give people a leg up than just a hand out. I don't however think we need to start enforcing time limits on people when it comes to foodstamps in particular. They benefits to society that they give outweigh the cost and while I agree that criminals deserve jail it is still a fact that the poorest segment of our society will resort to crime if that is the only way they feel they can survive(not all but alot). Then if they are caught for robbing you or a liquor store or whatever you will be paying for their food in jail anyway.

08/12/2008 11:50:03 AM · #129

Wait! Ok let me get this correctly you are using my tax money to buy food, and your money to buy toys "Darren Perkins" Camera, computer. None of these things are necessities none of these things are rights. If you are receiving food stamps and can aford these items and luxuries what else are you doing? Pretty pathetic.

Message edited by author 2008-08-12 11:53:25.

08/12/2008 07:24:24 PM · #130

Originally posted by coronamv:

Believe it or not just because I am entitled to food stamps doesn't mean that I can't own anything else. I suppose I shouldn't have but one set of clothes because that is all I really need and maybe I shouldn't have furniture... a few milk crates and a cold hard floor to sleep on are all that's really necessary. Wait do I really need electricity... people lived without it for a long time. Besides and anyway the camera was a gift (hopefully you don't have a problem with me receiving a gift.) What I find pretty pathetic is that you feel the moral superiority to judge me when you don't even know me or my circumstances. You make assumptions about me and my character that are baseless. I don't know why I let this upset me.. I've read quite a few of your other posts on these forums and frankly I think your an idiot "Mark Vincent". Goodday.

Message edited by author 2008-08-12 19:31:04.

08/12/2008 07:43:50 PM · #131

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Wait! Ok let me get this correctly you are using my tax money to buy food, and your money to buy toys "Darren Perkins" Camera, computer. None of these things are necessities none of these things are rights. If you are receiving food stamps and can aford these items and luxuries what else are you doing? Pretty pathetic.

Believe it or not just because I am entitled to food stamps doesn't mean that I can't own anything else. I suppose I shouldn't have but one set of clothes because that is all I really need and maybe I shouldn't have furniture... a few milk crates and a cold hard floor to sleep on are all that's really necessary. Wait do I really need electricity... people lived without it for a long time. Besides and anyway the camera was a gift (hopefully you don't have a problem with me receiving a gift.) What I find pretty pathetic is that you feel the moral superiority to judge me when you don't even know me or my circumstances. You make assumptions about me and my character that are baseless. I don't know why I let this upset me.. I've read quite a few of your other posts on these forums and frankly I think your an idiot. Goodday.

Don't let it get to you. Some people for some reason find it okay to exhibit the ugliest side of their nature when allowed to speak in relative anonymity. Most readers will see the ugliness for what it is and draw conclusions accordingly.

08/12/2008 07:59:23 PM · #132

Uglyness is the desire to waste Hard working American Tax payers money and Yes you should not spend money on no nessesities. And yes I find that very disgusting and wonder what your local DHR would think about it.. You find it ok to suck the money from other people who work hard at making it since you can and that is a crying shame. Man Legal Was wondering what happend to you... Also you might point out most of the working class who work hard to achieve the things they do would not feel it was right for you to have play toys while eating on their dime.. And that is exactly what you are doing! So what if it is a gift then sell it and use the money for food..

08/12/2008 08:02:36 PM · #133

Is it Legalbeagle or Mathew. I guess what I find amusing in this statement is that I have never changed my name on this board nor have I hidden my real name. You on the other hand have.

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Wait! Ok let me get this correctly you are using my tax money to buy food, and your money to buy toys "Darren Perkins" Camera, computer. None of these things are necessities none of these things are rights. If you are receiving food stamps and can aford these items and luxuries what else are you doing? Pretty pathetic.

Believe it or not just because I am entitled to food stamps doesn't mean that I can't own anything else. I suppose I shouldn't have but one set of clothes because that is all I really need and maybe I shouldn't have furniture... a few milk crates and a cold hard floor to sleep on are all that's really necessary. Wait do I really need electricity... people lived without it for a long time. Besides and anyway the camera was a gift (hopefully you don't have a problem with me receiving a gift.) What I find pretty pathetic is that you feel the moral superiority to judge me when you don't even know me or my circumstances. You make assumptions about me and my character that are baseless. I don't know why I let this upset me.. I've read quite a few of your other posts on these forums and frankly I think your an idiot. Goodday.

Don't let it get to you. Some people for some reason find it okay to exhibit the ugliest side of their nature when allowed to speak in relative anonymity. Most readers will see the ugliness for what it is and draw conclusions accordingly.

08/12/2008 08:03:31 PM · #134

Originally posted by coronamv:

Sanctimony is so unbecoming.

08/12/2008 08:03:55 PM · #135

BTW you are right to feel upset for cheating the American Taxpayer. I just pointed out that fact

Originally posted by dponlyme:

08/12/2008 08:05:58 PM · #136

Originally posted by coronamv:

Is it Legalbeagle or Mathew. I guess what I find amusing in this statement is that I have never changed my name on this board nor have I hidden my real name. You on the other hand have.

If you turn on signatures you will see this at the bottom of every post "I used to be known in these parts as legalbeagle".

08/12/2008 08:22:06 PM · #137

Originally posted by coronamv:

BTW you are right to feel upset for cheating the American Taxpayer. I just pointed out that fact

You seem to be pathologically keen to offend.

You have pointed out no facts - just an extremist opinion.

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

08/12/2008 09:18:27 PM · #138

So if you mean that I feel like you should work for what you have and if you do not then you have not then you are correct. I have stated before and will state again I do not believe in Welfare in any shape, form or fashion and People like Darren Perkins are the reason why. They choose to have their toys and live on other peoples tax dollars.

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by coronamv:
BTW you are right to feel upset for cheating the American Taxpayer. I just pointed out that fact

You seem to be pathologically keen to offend.

You have pointed out no facts - just an extremist opinion.

milo655321

Nikon D70

08/12/2008 11:14:28 PM · #139

Originally posted by coronamv:

Is it Legalbeagle or Mathew. I guess what I find amusing in this statement is that I have never changed my name on this board nor have I hidden my real name. You on the other hand have.

Waiter! Oh, waiter! I'll have an order of non sequitur with a side of sanctimony, please! And a cupful of egotism to wash it all down!

egamble

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM

08/13/2008 01:00:35 AM · #140

Originally posted by Matthew:

You seem to be pathologically keen to offend.

You have pointed out no facts - just an extremist opinion.

Actually, no. While he was very rude...and I don't think his condemnation of the other poster was warranted. He is absolutely right.

If you are on food stamps..and have been for a while....yet you have the money to spend on the 'internet' (unless he uses a library, or McDonald's..etc) then something is wrong.

HOWEVER, the guy jumped the gun by assuming that this other guy had paid for his camera, computer, internet...etc. If they were gifts..or awards of somesort (which is a very real possibility)...they cannot be held against him. But if he does spend his money every month on internet..that is a WANT being fulfilled while he takes the hard-earned money from the welfare system to satisfy a NEED. Which is wrong.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 01:01:20.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/13/2008 02:23:32 AM · #141

Originally posted by egamble:

No, I complain about my taxes being wasted. YOu can't seem to get that through your head.

And yet it's pretty obvious that most "waste" occurs in the area of military spending and tax "advantages" for certain categories of multinational corporations.

I'm going to hazard a wild guess that there is more money unaccounted for in Iraq within Haliburton's purview than the total provable welfare fraud for the whole country.

I just saw Les Miserables -- Valjean got ten years at hard labor for stealing bread for his starving family ... but let a CEO defraud the taxpayers of a few million and who cares, eh, that's just the way it works. Right.

People (self-labeled conservatives, anyway) always complain about how inefficient big government is, and how unfettered capitalism is the path to economic salvation. Yet, after who knows how many years of a free market in the health insurance industry, we have the worst dollar/benefit ratio in the industrialized world, have some forty million uninsured, and an administrative overhead running at about 30%. MediCare, the Government-run health insurance program for the elderly, has an administrative overhead of around 8%. No, where is the "waste" occuring?

Which is more immoral -- trying to score some food stamps, or locating your corporate "headquarters" in a PO Box in the Cayman Islands so that you a) pay no US taxes, and b) can skirt Federal law and sell oil production equipment to Iran (c.f. "Haliburton Products and Services") as occurred during our current Vice President's tenure as CEO at "The Big H"?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/13/2008 02:24:49 AM · #142

Oh yeah, why is a government-run/paid-for health system good enough for members of the government, but not the rest of us?

08/13/2008 04:32:06 AM · #143

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by Matthew:

You seem to be pathologically keen to offend.

You have pointed out no facts - just an extremist opinion.

Actually, no. While he was very rude...and I don't think his condemnation of the other poster was warranted. He is absolutely right.

If you are on food stamps..and have been for a while....yet you have the money to spend on the 'internet' (unless he uses a library, or McDonald's..etc) then something is wrong.

HOWEVER, the guy jumped the gun by assuming that this other guy had paid for his camera, computer, internet...etc. If they were gifts..or awards of somesort (which is a very real possibility)...they cannot be held against him. But if he does spend his money every month on internet..that is a WANT being fulfilled while he takes the hard-earned money from the welfare system to satisfy a NEED. Which is wrong.

It is unbelievable to me the kind of bullshit people will shovel even when they have no understanding. I use the internet every month to make money... granted it's not much after paying expenses but I do make a little that makes it possible for me and my family to survive. Hope that's all right with you. Maybe we don't deserve to live in your world view.

08/13/2008 04:59:01 AM · #144

Originally posted by coronamv:

I don't know why I bother but the camera as I said was a gift and I use it in conjunction with the internet to 'make' money so that I don't have to have the state pay for more than just my food. Also this camera would probably bring about $50 if sold which wouldn't do a lot of feeding of us but then would drastically reduce the amount of income that I do have. Do you get that? Is there any conception in your little pea brain that you don't know everything and everyone and don't have a moral right to go shooting your mouth off? I know that you post as a Christian which I find ridiculous. You no more follow the teachings of Jesus Christ than Osama Bin Laden does. You sir are a hate monger. I would venture so far as to say that you are evil and unrepentantly so and just plain mean for the sake of being mean. What you ought to do is get down on your knees and pray and ask forgiveness and then give thanks that you are not in a position where foodstamps are necessary for your family. Hey my Christian buddy, why don't you loan me some money? Christians are supposed to give to the one who asks and turn not away the one who wishes to borrow. Show your Christianity and let me borrow around $2000. No of course not because the apparent real focus of your life is money. One Christian to another... change your ways or you will burn in hell.

08/13/2008 06:42:10 AM · #145

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by Matthew:
You have pointed out no facts - just an extremist opinion.

Actually, no. While he was very rude...and I don't think his condemnation of the other poster was warranted. He is absolutely right.

Let's see.

Originally posted by coronamv:

BTW you are right to feel upset for cheating the American Taxpayer. I just pointed out that fact

The claimed "fact" is that dponlyme has "cheated" the American Taxpayer. Dponlyme has, as far as anyone is aware, claimed what he is due fully in accordance with the rules of the social benefits system that provides a safety net for every single American Taxpayer. He has not "cheated" the system, because the system does not say that he must sell every asset he owns before claiming food stamps. He has not "cheated" anyone.

It is coronamv's extremist view that anyone should sell every asset they own before being entitled to the lowest level of support from the state. His *opinion* is that anyone who does not is cheating the system.

It is your *opinion* that coronamv's *opinion* is right - but that is a long way from the facts.

Most sane people would want to rehabilitate the unemployed so as to make them productive members of society. You propose to degrade their lives to the extent that they no longer function in modern society. You propose to deny people the assets that people realistically and pragmatically need to find a job, and degrade them to an extent that mentally they will be unable to rebuild their work prospects.

Your lack of human compassion is striking. Regardless of that, your grasp of basic social economics is woeful. Trapping people in extreme poverty makes them extraordinarily unproductive. Make them productive and they will help lessen the dreadful and injurious tax burden that you claim to suffer.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 06:42:28.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/13/2008 06:43:07 AM · #146

if you want to help someone out of poverty, help him stand up.
unless you wish to forever provide him food and shelter.

anyway i dont know why all these are discussed under a thread which is suppose to talk about Obama and his fetish for Canon cameras :D

08/13/2008 09:07:06 AM · #147

Actually if you had read my post in this and other areas of the forum I have advocated the educate instead of just feeding them. Although Mathew you fail to realize you live in a socialistic style government and society and I live in a republic that is based on Capitalism. I do firmly believe you dponlyme are just making excuses to get benefits that you do not qualify for. So yes he's cheating the system. Granted a flawed system that needs major restructuring.

08/13/2008 09:31:10 AM · #148

Originally posted by coronamv:

You are a moron. That is my firm belief.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 09:31:45.

08/13/2008 10:13:58 AM · #149

I'm not the one who has resorted to calling names. I'm not the one who has no debate left to argue. I'm not the one who is taking money they did not earn. I am curious to the statement you made earlier.. You say you need the internet and camera to make money. Correct? Ok so do you have any other source of income beyond that and what you take from tax payers? What lead to you current situation? What are your goals to get out of your current situation? Also I am puzzled by the statement you made on which foodstamps help keep you family together.. Could you elaborate more on that? My second point to be made is where do you get that I am a christian? You do realize other people beyond christians hold the belief that people should not leach off others....