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08/17/2008 10:55:03 AM · #226

Originally posted by dponlyme:

It's a lot cheaper to feed a person than to house them in a prison because they had to resort to crime to try and survive.

Not a legit arguement, in fact...that is little more than blackmail.

'You either take care of me, or I am will become a criminal'

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/17/2008 11:05:30 AM · #227

Originally posted by egamble:

It is the responsibility of each individual citizen to take care of their own. That way we can make sure the money is well spent. With the government, their is no true oversight into what is going on.

Define "their own", please. Are we not all brothers? Is not the state, ideally, the collective "us"?

R.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/17/2008 11:11:03 AM · #228

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Define "their own", please. Are we not all brothers? Is not the state, ideally, the collective "us"?

R.

I should have realized which state you were from with that first comment.

'Their own' refers to the people whom are money is used to help out in times of need. I am not a crack head, drug dealer, gangbanger, or any other form of crook that is allowed to abuse the system.

If my money is going to go to help THESE types of people...I prefer to have specific conditions attached with that help in order to make sure the maximum positive benefits are achieved.

For instance, instead of the state giving out free food. I would prefer to give my money to a faith based group that will also try to help the person in other ways other than just giving a hand out.

If the person 'in need' doesn't like my particular faith...perhaps they can take their 'needs' elsewhere. I don't understand why my money should be spent.....excuse me, THROWN AWAY on programs that are used and abused without any real input from the citizenry.

With your last question..you nailed it on the head. IDEALLY. I wish we lived in an ideal world, unfortunately we don't. The government ,currently, is the buisiness of wasting money for no good reasons. That is unacceptable.

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 11:11:47.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/17/2008 11:22:06 AM · #229

Originally posted by egamble:

With your last question..you nailed it on the head. IDEALLY. I wish we lived in an ideal world, unfortunately we don't. The government ,currently, is the business of wasting money for no good reasons. That is unacceptable.

On this we agree completely. However, my inclination is to try to work to gain/sustain close-to-ideal government (which, in most cases, means less government, IMO). I don't see any way we can do what you're proposing, with things as they are now. And I particularly bridle at your apparent willingness to toss the truly damaged amongst us to the wolves.

R.

BTW, I'm a Southern California native, born and mostly raised in a conservative stronghold, who relatively recently retired to Cape Cod, so don't tar me with "Kennedy Liberal" brush, LOL.

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 11:24:12.

08/17/2008 11:45:00 AM · #230

Originally posted by coronamv:

Actually I do say the world is unfair. My point being government should not be brought in to regulate healthcare welfare or insurance. Many more private enterprises also. Those are just a few

The government is already intensely involved in regulation of insurance and finance - market behaviour would drive some extremely unhealthy practices without it.

Let's see what other centralised government services you think should be moved back a century or so into private hands. Would you also promote the privatisation of the following social services?

Schools
Ambulances
Firefighting
Coastguard

Incidentally, I have not used any of these state services. Would it be fair of me to accuse you, if you have used any of these services as provided by the state, of being a thief who has stolen from the hard earned tax contributions of people like me? Should you be forced to repay, say, the costs of your schooling (presuming that you were not privately educated)?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Actually if your caught committing fraud are you not usually banned from that activity in the future? Such as Securities and Trading. Or if you commit fraud in the legal profession you are disbarred. Thus no I do not think it is harsh

No. You are not punished or banned by law. However, you must be licensed to practise some professions and you might lose your licence if you breach the licensing body's rules - eg for lawyers, any dishonesty offence (inc. fraud) would be fundamentally inconsistent with their duty of utmost good faith as officers of the court.

Originally posted by coronamv:

Why thank you and your right do you homework and everything to protect you and your family so no one else has too.

While I agree with your investment strategy, are you saying that everyone should invest or be damned?

08/17/2008 12:02:33 PM · #231

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually I do say the world is unfair. My point being government should not be brought in to regulate healthcare welfare or insurance. Many more private enterprises also. Those are just a few

The government is already intensely involved in regulation of insurance and finance - market behaviour would drive some extremely unhealthy practices without it.

Let's see what other centralised government services you think should be moved back a century or so into private hands. Would you also promote the privatisation of the following social services?

Schools The one area I have already stated should be funded
Ambulances- Private Industry here.
Firefighting Also a volunteer service in my area, but not elsewhere.
Coastguard- Federal protection of the Country an area I already stated was the duty of the government.

Incidentally, I have not used any of these state services. Would it be fair of me to accuse you, if you have used any of these services as provided by the state, of being a thief who has stolen from the hard earned tax contributions of people like me? Should you be forced to repay, say, the costs of your schooling (presuming that you were not privately educated)? Actually I have repaid my school loans and have only rode in an ambulance once which cost me around $1000 not the tax payers and not you since you live in another country and do not pay taxes here. Also our fire fighters in this area of the nation are mostly volunteer and ranked higher than the ones funded by tax money. As for the coast guard that is part of the nation defense.
Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually if your caught committing fraud are you not usually banned from that activity in the future? Such as Securities and Trading. Or if you commit fraud in the legal profession you are disbarred. Thus no I do not think it is harsh
No. You are not punished or banned by law. However, you must be licensed to practise some professions and you might lose your licence if you breach the licensing body's rules - eg for lawyers, any dishonesty offence (inc. fraud) would be fundamentally inconsistent with their duty of utmost good faith as officers of the court. Wow your rules are different from ours. Here the that body is the government

Originally posted by coronamv:
Why thank you and your right do you homework and everything to protect you and your family so no one else has too.
While I agree with your investment strategy, are you saying that everyone should invest or be damned?

Well are you saying nobody should invest cause I will? So I should be damned?

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 12:03:54.

08/17/2008 12:04:50 PM · #232

Can we tar and feather with California Liberal Labeling?

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by egamble:
With your last question..you nailed it on the head. IDEALLY. I wish we lived in an ideal world, unfortunately we don't. The government ,currently, is the business of wasting money for no good reasons. That is unacceptable.

On this we agree completely. However, my inclination is to try to work to gain/sustain close-to-ideal government (which, in most cases, means less government, IMO). I don't see any way we can do what you're proposing, with things as they are now. And I particularly bridle at your apparent willingness to toss the truly damaged amongst us to the wolves.

R.

BTW, I'm a Southern California native, born and mostly raised in a conservative stronghold, who relatively recently retired to Cape Cod, so don't tar me with "Kennedy Liberal" brush, LOL.

08/17/2008 12:12:04 PM · #233

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
It's a lot cheaper to feed a person than to house them in a prison because they had to resort to crime to try and survive.

Not a legit arguement, in fact...that is little more than blackmail.

'You either take care of me, or I am will become a criminal'

Let me get this straight. You are morally outraged at cause and effect: you are shocked that if you take away all forms of support, that people might become desperate and that crime rates would go up as a consequence. You don't think that desperate people *should* do that. But do you acknowledge that they *will* be more desperate and there will be an associated cost?

08/17/2008 12:20:17 PM · #234

Your ideas seem familiar to me I believe another man said these very same ideas "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" accept for the fact you think it is up to government to control these things which I call The Dictatorship of the Proletariat" Which even the Man himself Karl Marx stated could not exist in this world. I say be free to Make millions or free to fail. Key word being FREE....

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by egamble:
I am saying..it isn't the governments responsibility. I never said we shouldn't take care of people in need....I just said it should be through 'private' enterprises.

What do you think government is, anyway? In this country, it's a corporation which has all citizens as "shareholders" -- put together to pool resources for the good of the entire population; "promote the general welfare" is how the US Constitution puts it. It's one of the significant ways humans different from other top predators.

08/17/2008 12:48:01 PM · #235

Originally posted by coronamv:

Schools The one area I have already stated should be funded

Why? Why should people be forced to pay for other people's schooling? Especially if they choose a private school, or don't have children? Why not force people to pay back the costs of their schooling?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Ambulances- Private Industry here.

with a big chunk of state funding. Why should the state pay anything? Why shouldn't people be left to die in accidents unless they are rich enough to produce a credit card?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Firefighting Also a volunteer service in my area, but not elsewhere.

As for ambulances - why should the poor have the benefit of being saved for free?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Coastguard- Federal protection of the Country an area I already stated was the duty of the government.

What about its emergency rescue element? Why should poor people expect to be rescued for free?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Actually I have repaid my school loans

By school I presume you mean university/higher education. I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free?

Originally posted by coronamv:

and not you since you live in another country and do not pay taxes here.

That's why I said "people like me" - not that it affects the principle.

Originally posted by coronamv:

Wow your rules are different from ours. Here the that body is the government [/b]

No - your rules are pretty much the same. //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Rules_of_Professional_Conduct

Originally posted by coronamv:

Well are you saying nobody should invest cause I will? So I should be damned?

No - I was asking if you propose to make investment all but compulsory (effectively a replacement tax) - and those that don't or cannot invest like you do shoud be damned by their circumstances.

08/17/2008 01:23:52 PM · #236

Originally posted by coronamv:

Your ideas seem familiar to me ...Karl Marx stated ...

You seem desperate to find reds under the bed.

In a modern democracy, the government is accountable to the people so it should come as no surprise that it implements some social policies in times of need. That does not equal communism.

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

08/17/2008 01:37:07 PM · #237

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Schools The one area I have already stated should be funded

Why? Why should people be forced to pay for other people's schooling? Especially if they choose a private school, or don't have children? Why not force people to pay back the costs of their schooling? Are we talking Primary or secondary?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Ambulances- [b]Private Industry here.[/b]
with a big chunk of state funding. Why should the state pay anything? Why shouldn't people be left to die in accidents unless they are rich enough to produce a credit card? Actually they will send you a bill... And no they are not funded by a big chunk of state money.
Originally posted by coronamv:
Firefighting Also a volunteer service in my area, but not elsewhere.
As for ambulances - why should the poor have the benefit of being saved for free? Why are the poor any better than me and get it for free. It is a sevice not a right!
Originally posted by coronamv:
Coastguard- Federal protection of the Country an area I already stated was the duty of the government.
What about its emergency rescue element? Why should poor people expect to be rescued for free? You may be suprized to find out the coast guard will charge you a fee for rescue. And I am curious what incident would arise to make the poor be in need of resque from the coast guard?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually I have repaid my school loans
By school I presume you mean university/higher education. I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free? Nope Private schooling.

Originally posted by coronamv:
and not you since you live in another country and do not pay taxes here.
That's why I said "people like me" - not that it affects the principle. Fair enough..but why cut the quote short?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Wow your rules are different from ours. Here the that body is the government [/b]
No - your rules are pretty much the same. //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Rules_of_Professional_Conduct Incorrect Actually in the states the bar association cannot license you nor disbar you. It is the state governments that hold that power. Bar associations do monitor the actions of their members but have no power.
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well are you saying nobody should invest cause I will? So I should be damned?
No - I was asking if you propose to make investment all but compulsory (effectively a replacement tax) - and those that don't or cannot invest like you do shoud be damned by their circumstances.

No never have I said that. I said it is up to the individual and yes those who do not manage or prioritise their life correctly are have essentially screwed no one but themselves

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 13:39:52.

dponlyme

Nikon D3000

08/17/2008 02:50:43 PM · #238

Originally posted by coronamv:

I grew up out of poverty and know what it is like to have not. My parents and their parents never asked the government for welfare.

I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free? Nope Private schooling.

Now you at best seem disingenuous and at worst an outright liar. How is it that you grew up in a state of poverty and yet your family still had the resources to send you to private schooling? I don't know too many people who grew up in a state of poverty that had the benefit of private schooling. I did not grow up in poverty but we also did not have the resources for private schooling either.

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 14:58:25.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/17/2008 04:02:25 PM · #239

Originally posted by coronamv:

I'm glad you mentioned this, as it supports my idea that "free market" Capitalism is nothing but an anti-Christian sham. Marx's most famous line is derived directly from the New Testament, Acts 4:32-35:

Originally posted by The Bible:

4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and
of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things
which he possessed was his own; but they had all things
common.

4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the
resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them
all.

4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as
were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the
prices of the things that were sold,

4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was
made unto every man according as he had need.

08/17/2008 04:12:31 PM · #240

Originally posted by coronamv:

Are we talking Primary or secondary?

Does it matter? Why should one person ever pay a penny that would benefit someone else, except out of volition?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Actually they will send you a bill... And no they are not funded by a big chunk of state money.

It is a bit off topic but the most cursory of google searches turns up tax breaks for volunteers, the insufficiency of Medicaid Supplementary Funds for ambulance services, and the need for increased funding. hy shouldn't the ambulance service be left to live or die based on its ability to recover only people who can afford to pay in full? eg //www.budget.state.ny.us/pubs/press/2007/townHallMeetings/Buffalo/UnitedNewYorkAmbulanceNetwork.pdf

Originally posted by coronamv:

Why are the poor any better than me and get it for free. It is a sevice not a right!

I suppose that is a reason of sorts - though one response might be that if poor people are going to get it for free, them rich people should also get it for free. My view is that the public interest is rather well served by preventing fire in general - it can spread. [PS do you get billed the full cost of any fire service action as well?]

Originally posted by coronamv:

Coastguard - You may be suprized to find out the coast guard will charge you a fee for rescue. And I am curious what incident would arise to make the poor be in need of resque from the coast guard?

Poor people sometimes enter the sea too. I don't think that the sea cares whether your lilo cost one or a hundred dollars when sweeping you out to sea. If you cannot pay, do they put you back?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Nope Private schooling

I could make a joke about demanding a refund - but won't... ;) So why are you in favour of state schooling for other people? Even you, from a poor family, could be privately educated preserving your family's "nothing from the state" ethos. Why not others?

Originally posted by coronamv:

Fair enough..but why cut the quote short?

Readability - no offence intended.

Originally posted by coronamv:

Incorrect Actually in the states the bar association cannot license you nor disbar you. It is the state governments that hold that power.

The bar association sets the rules that are then state sanctioned. In the UK, the government appoints the law society as governing body for the profession which then sets the rules. In both cases the problem is breaking the professional rules, not sentencing under the penal code.

Originally posted by coronamv:

I said it is up to the individual and yes those who do not manage or prioritise their life correctly are have essentially screwed no one but themselves

And people who cannot afford to invest? Those people made unemployed in an environment outside their control? Your view is that, rather than take collective responsibility for them and pay a tiny amount into a collective "pot" for anyone to benefit from, that it is better for them to be psychologically damaged, pushed into illicit and unlawful activities, and pushed out of future productivity.

08/17/2008 05:44:05 PM · #241

Originally posted by Matthew:

I don't think any circumstances give you the right to circumvent the laws of the society in which you are a part of. You are either a part of our social contract with one another...or not...if not...you are not allowed to live with us.

08/17/2008 05:46:21 PM · #242

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Your ideas seem familiar to me I believe another man said these very same ideas "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" accept for the fact you think it is up to government to control these things which I call The Dictatorship of the Proletariat" Which even the Man himself Karl Marx stated could not exist in this world. I say be free to Make millions or free to fail. Key word being FREE....

I'm glad you mentioned this, as it supports my idea that "free market" Capitalism is nothing but an anti-Christian sham. Marx's most famous line is derived directly from the New Testament, Acts 4:32-35:

Originally posted by The Bible:

4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and
of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things
which he possessed was his own; but they had all things
common.

4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the
resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them
all.

4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as
were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the
prices of the things that were sold,

4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was
made unto every man according as he had need.

Again, there is a seperation of church and state in this country. Since this government does not uphold the values of my bible...they can't pick and choose pieces of it to support programs that waste my money.

However, if I look at my bible as a mandate and choose to donate because of it...that is perfectly fine.

08/17/2008 06:11:01 PM · #243

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:
I grew up out of poverty and know what it is like to have not. My parents and their parents never asked the government for welfare.

I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free? Nope Private schooling.

Now you at best seem disingenuous and at worst an outright liar. How is it that you grew up in a state of poverty and yet your family still had the resources to send you to private schooling? I don't know too many people who grew up in a state of poverty that had the benefit of private schooling. I did not grow up in poverty but we also did not have the resources for private schooling either.

Well Just because you and your family failed to be able to achieve these things does not make it impossible or make me a liar. What I find similiar in all of these areguements is because one cannot achieve it then becomes his right to be supported by the government and the tax payers. Like I have said before find a job that can sustain your life and prioritize you spending.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/17/2008 06:14:03 PM · #244

Half a line is not deriving a whole idea from the Bible. I am not also sure where you get that capitalism is an anti-Christian sham. Although Marxism was a complete move away from any form of religion.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/17/2008 06:33:40 PM · #245

Originally posted by coronamv:

Half a line is not deriving a whole idea from the Bible. I am not also sure where you get that capitalism is an anti-Christian sham.

Christianity purports to be about pious charity and genuine caring for those less fortunate than oneself; capitalism is based on the principle that the acquisition of wealth (i.e. greed -- a "sin" last I heard) is the most effective motivator for "progress."

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

08/17/2008 06:36:34 PM · #246

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Are we talking Primary or secondary?
Does it matter? Why should one person ever pay a penny that would benefit someone else, except out of volition? Because This is the only way to create a society that is not dependant on the government to feed and take care of them. It creates a more productive member of society. Where as welfare creates a dependant individual with no way of taking care of themself. Do you disagree with educating the masses?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually they will send you a bill... And no they are not funded by a big chunk of state money.
It is a bit off topic but the most cursory of google searches turns up tax breaks for volunteers, the insufficiency of Medicaid Supplementary Funds for ambulance services, and the need for increased funding. hy shouldn't the ambulance service be left to live or die based on its ability to recover only people who can afford to pay in full? eg [url] Actually yes medicaid is another travesty in the country that needs either doing away with or a major overhauling.
//www.budget.state.ny.us/pubs/press/2007/townHallMeetings/Buffalo/UnitedNewYorkAmbulanceNetwork.pdf[/url]

Originally posted by coronamv:
Why are the poor any better than me and get it for free. It is a sevice not a right!
I suppose that is a reason of sorts - though one response might be that if poor people are going to get it for free, them rich people should also get it for free. My view is that the public interest is rather well served by preventing fire in general - it can spread. [PS do you get billed the full cost of any fire service action as well?] Beyond what government calls acts of god ( huricanes, tornados, Lightening) yes they will bill your for the cost of services. If you burn down your house on accident yes you will get a bill for services.

Originally posted by coronamv:
Coastguard - You may be suprized to find out the coast guard will charge you a fee for rescue. And I am curious what incident would arise to make the poor be in need of resque from the coast guard?
Poor people sometimes enter the sea too. I don't think that the sea cares whether your lilo cost one or a hundred dollars when sweeping you out to sea. If you cannot pay, do they put you back? Show me one legal instance of someone in the united states needing rescue due to no fault of their own by the coast guard that were poor.

Originally posted by coronamv:
Nope Private schooling
I could make a joke about demanding a refund - but won't... ;) So why are you in favour of state schooling for other people? Even you, from a poor family, could be privately educated preserving your family's "nothing from the state" ethos. Why not others? Actually I do not think I ever said I was in favor of state schooling. That is probably the worst form of education in this country. Private schooling provides a far better education. I said the government should fund this policy to better its people. Teach one to fish....
Originally posted by coronamv:
Fair enough..but why cut the quote short?
Readability - no offence intended. Understood
Originally posted by coronamv:
Incorrect Actually in the states the bar association cannot license you nor disbar you. It is the state governments that hold that power.
The bar association sets the rules that are then state sanctioned. In the UK, the government appoints the law society as governing body for the profession which then sets the rules. In both cases the problem is breaking the professional rules, not sentencing under the penal code. You may be right in your country here it is different. The State regulates the bar.
Originally posted by coronamv:
I said it is up to the individual and yes those who do not manage or prioritise their life correctly are have essentially screwed no one but themselves
And people who cannot afford to invest? Those people made unemployed in an environment outside their control? Your view is that, rather than take collective responsibility for them and pay a tiny amount into a collective "pot" for anyone to benefit from, that it is better for them to be psychologically damaged, pushed into illicit and unlawful activities, and pushed out of future productivity.

Two points we keep going over You keep saying that their unemployment is derived from things out of their control. I disagree. We have been over this a million times in this forum. Two Where does it say it is my responsibility to pick up your pieces when you fail?

Message edited by author 2008-08-17 18:38:24.

dponlyme

Nikon D3000

08/18/2008 04:35:30 AM · #247

Originally posted by coronamv:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:
I grew up out of poverty and know what it is like to have not. My parents and their parents never asked the government for welfare.

I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free? Nope Private schooling.

Now you at best seem disingenuous and at worst an outright liar. How is it that you grew up in a state of poverty and yet your family still had the resources to send you to private schooling? I don't know too many people who grew up in a state of poverty that had the benefit of private schooling. I did not grow up in poverty but we also did not have the resources for private schooling either.

Well Just because you and your family failed to be able to achieve these things does not make it impossible or make me a liar. What I find similiar in all of these areguements is because one cannot achieve it then becomes his right to be supported by the government and the tax payers. Like I have said before find a job that can sustain your life and prioritize you spending.

Seems like if your family was able to achieve things as you put it then you didn't grow up in a state of poverty. Where is the 'have not' part of your statement. Seems like to me you 'had'. Which again points us to the disingenuous quality of your statement or what I would characterize as a convenient lie. A theme I find disturbing is that only those who have always 'had' begrudge the minimal assistance that is given to the ones who really have need. Pathetic that you cannot empathize with anyone's life, situation, circumstance.

Message edited by author 2008-08-18 04:52:55.

08/18/2008 08:52:55 AM · #248

Cannot empathize with those who cheat the system. IE have also.. Camera computer Internet and how many other things we do not know about. Do you feel a car is a nessecity? Do you feel a TV is a nessecity? I think the definition of nessecity is lost with you...

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by coronamv:
I grew up out of poverty and know what it is like to have not. My parents and their parents never asked the government for welfare.

I presume that you got your junior and highschool education free? Nope Private schooling.

Now you at best seem disingenuous and at worst an outright liar. How is it that you grew up in a state of poverty and yet your family still had the resources to send you to private schooling? I don't know too many people who grew up in a state of poverty that had the benefit of private schooling. I did not grow up in poverty but we also did not have the resources for private schooling either.

Well Just because you and your family failed to be able to achieve these things does not make it impossible or make me a liar. What I find similiar in all of these areguements is because one cannot achieve it then becomes his right to be supported by the government and the tax payers. Like I have said before find a job that can sustain your life and prioritize you spending.

Seems like if your family was able to achieve things as you put it then you didn't grow up in a state of poverty. Where is the 'have not' part of your statement. Seems like to me you 'had'. Which again points us to the disingenuous quality of your statement or what I would characterize as a convenient lie. A theme I find disturbing is that only those who have always 'had' begrudge the minimal assistance that is given to the ones who really have need. Pathetic that you cannot empathize with anyone's life, situation, circumstance.