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06/09/2008 03:47:20 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
I believe it was American and German materiel from which he made the WMDs which he actually used on the Kurds ... and American arms which he used in the war with Iran. |
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06/09/2008 04:03:24 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
I believe it was American and German materiel from which he made the WMDs which he actually used on the Kurds ... and American arms which he used in the war with Iran. |
Maybe American funding for arms, but not American arms. The Iraqi Army standard was/is Soviet machinery; AK-47's, T series tanks etc. |
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06/09/2008 10:31:42 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
Hmmmmmmmm... sounds a lot like some other country in the middle east.
Ray |
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06/09/2008 11:44:07 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
Hmmmmmmmm... sounds a lot like some other country in the middle east.
Ray |
More than one I'd wager.
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06/10/2008 01:01:47 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Gordon, What are these "legal" imigration issues you had to overcome. In ten years what troubles did you have hiring into the tech sector here in the U.S.? There must be a reason for not staying in your country of birth. Maybe Just Maybe the freedoms and ability to achieve almost anything you put your mind and hard work into makes people want to come here. I promise you you will not find that in many other places on earth. I personally like being able to choose who I want insurance and medical services through instead of a buracracy like most govenments are telling me what they have decided for me. I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life. At least this way I have only one person to blame. And that is me if things don't go well. BTW you hear about rising health care cost in this nation, well our company just had a rate decrease in our premiums. Yeah it was a first for us, but by promoting family values and caring for our employees they have been less sick. thus less stress thus less premiums to cause the cost of health care to go up. |
Mark,
I'm afraid that you do not understand the fundamental difference between the healthcare in the US and the healthcare in the UK for example. (picking on Gordon's home country here). You *think* that you have the freedom to choose the health insurance provider, and that you can choose the amount of coverage you desire. Well, you are still young, and probably and hopefully without any serious health conditions (and I wish it stays that way forever). However, the fundamental difference (other than who pays for it which is a side issue because it ends up being the same when you take into account taxes overseas and insurance premiums here in the US) is that over there, you are insured without annual or lifetime maximums, and regardless of your health condition. Over here, your insurance premiums depend on your health, and the coverage also depends on what you are carrying with you in terms of chronic diseases when signing up for the insurance. The insurance is a business in the US, where it is a service to people elsewhere.
Look at your, e.g. dental plan. Try to go to get your teeth cleaned 3 times a year. Or, try to put two crowns in a single calendar year. You're up for a surprise. Also, check your medical lifetime limits. Sure, you will hear people talk about how emergency rooms will see anyone here for free... try emergency rooms when you have a chronic illness such as cancer. You may go there once, or twice, but they do not give chemothreapy in the ER rooms, nor you can get continuous care there. You have to pay for that one. And, there are limits to how much you can ask your insurance to cover for you.
If you have some insurance plan that does not suffer from those maximums and different percentages (50%, 80%, etc) for non-preventive services, I'd be happy to hear about it. I need it for my family members, that are now old enough that the preventive does not cut it for them any more. And ER does not work either. (not that we've tried it).
Cheers! and stay healthy, y'all! that way you can argue how it is great that you do not have to pay money for the care of others...
-S. |
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06/10/2008 06:05:59 PM · #81 |
Nice spin... got to give you credit, but soldiers get a salary. Which is paid for by tax paying citizens and legal residents of the United States. Family members get compensation if their love one dies to support them in the future. I do beleive we need to pay our soldiers better and give them better compensation. What you refer to as my comment states is not our fighting forces but the none tax paying people who live off our tax money. I will not make any excuse for saying I can not for those people. nothing my friend is FREE.
Originally posted by cbeller:
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life... |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Hey Ray its simple freedom does have a cost. We do not live in a perfect world Even Karl Marx knew this.Soldiers and civilians will die so we can have this debate... |
Interesting...our soldiers can give their lives for your family's freedom. But you don't want to give a dime to help them or their family. |
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06/10/2008 06:15:28 PM · #82 |
Pardon my language but it just seems you have got the shit end of the stick. Actually my insurance premiums are paid for by my company. We have BCBS 100 percent coverage plus dental blue at 80 percent coverage. Yes there are lifetime caps on certain things such as cancer. thus I have a cancer policy that cost me 8 dollars a month that has no cap through aflac. I also have a nest egg and investments that are to provide for me in the case of an emergency. I have prepared. I do not need someone else to carry my burden and neither does anyone else. If you prepair for the future then you will not be anyone elses burden either. If you think its not possible then why do millions of people do it every day. Are they just special in a certain way. More gifted or just plan smarter and wiser. I don't think its any of these things I think it's called hard work and determination. That is what this country is built upon. I wish people would remember that and stop coming here and making it like where they left. You have to ask this question. If it's so bad here then why do most people want to come her?
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Gordon, What are these "legal" imigration issues you had to overcome. In ten years what troubles did you have hiring into the tech sector here in the U.S.? There must be a reason for not staying in your country of birth. Maybe Just Maybe the freedoms and ability to achieve almost anything you put your mind and hard work into makes people want to come here. I promise you you will not find that in many other places on earth. I personally like being able to choose who I want insurance and medical services through instead of a buracracy like most govenments are telling me what they have decided for me. I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life. At least this way I have only one person to blame. And that is me if things don't go well. BTW you hear about rising health care cost in this nation, well our company just had a rate decrease in our premiums. Yeah it was a first for us, but by promoting family values and caring for our employees they have been less sick. thus less stress thus less premiums to cause the cost of health care to go up. |
Mark,
I'm afraid that you do not understand the fundamental difference between the healthcare in the US and the healthcare in the UK for example. (picking on Gordon's home country here). You *think* that you have the freedom to choose the health insurance provider, and that you can choose the amount of coverage you desire. Well, you are still young, and probably and hopefully without any serious health conditions (and I wish it stays that way forever). However, the fundamental difference (other than who pays for it which is a side issue because it ends up being the same when you take into account taxes overseas and insurance premiums here in the US) is that over there, you are insured without annual or lifetime maximums, and regardless of your health condition. Over here, your insurance premiums depend on your health, and the coverage also depends on what you are carrying with you in terms of chronic diseases when signing up for the insurance. The insurance is a business in the US, where it is a service to people elsewhere.
Look at your, e.g. dental plan. Try to go to get your teeth cleaned 3 times a year. Or, try to put two crowns in a single calendar year. You're up for a surprise. Also, check your medical lifetime limits. Sure, you will hear people talk about how emergency rooms will see anyone here for free... try emergency rooms when you have a chronic illness such as cancer. You may go there once, or twice, but they do not give chemothreapy in the ER rooms, nor you can get continuous care there. You have to pay for that one. And, there are limits to how much you can ask your insurance to cover for you.
If you have some insurance plan that does not suffer from those maximums and different percentages (50%, 80%, etc) for non-preventive services, I'd be happy to hear about it. I need it for my family members, that are now old enough that the preventive does not cut it for them any more. And ER does not work either. (not that we've tried it).
Cheers! and stay healthy, y'all! that way you can argue how it is great that you do not have to pay money for the care of others...
-S. |
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06/10/2008 06:17:09 PM · #83 |
Well lets not leave out the french supplied Seron gas found a few years ago"forgive me for the spelling"
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
I believe it was American and German materiel from which he made the WMDs which he actually used on the Kurds ... and American arms which he used in the war with Iran. |
Maybe American funding for arms, but not American arms. The Iraqi Army standard was/is Soviet machinery; AK-47's, T series tanks etc. |
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06/10/2008 06:24:32 PM · #84 |
Oh and BTW I left a company that had poor health care benefits for the one I'm at. I chose to better myself and at no ones cost but my own. Now lets talk about a solutions to the problem. Education needs to improve, I see a good point in spending tax money on education. That being science and math and literature and art. This being at the base level. At high learning institutions there are no excuse. I put myself through college. There are grants and loans available for all people who can achieve a minimum of a c level grade point average. Yeah you may not get to go to harvard but you will still get a good education. Number two if there are no jobs in your area MOVE! Number three if you cannot make a living at your dream job. then make it a hobby and find a carear you can be happy with to pay the bills .. IE that includes Medical, savings and all the rest. I would gladly help someone willing to better their self over someone just wanting help.
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Gordon, What are these "legal" imigration issues you had to overcome. In ten years what troubles did you have hiring into the tech sector here in the U.S.? There must be a reason for not staying in your country of birth. Maybe Just Maybe the freedoms and ability to achieve almost anything you put your mind and hard work into makes people want to come here. I promise you you will not find that in many other places on earth. I personally like being able to choose who I want insurance and medical services through instead of a buracracy like most govenments are telling me what they have decided for me. I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life. At least this way I have only one person to blame. And that is me if things don't go well. BTW you hear about rising health care cost in this nation, well our company just had a rate decrease in our premiums. Yeah it was a first for us, but by promoting family values and caring for our employees they have been less sick. thus less stress thus less premiums to cause the cost of health care to go up. |
Mark,
I'm afraid that you do not understand the fundamental difference between the healthcare in the US and the healthcare in the UK for example. (picking on Gordon's home country here). You *think* that you have the freedom to choose the health insurance provider, and that you can choose the amount of coverage you desire. Well, you are still young, and probably and hopefully without any serious health conditions (and I wish it stays that way forever). However, the fundamental difference (other than who pays for it which is a side issue because it ends up being the same when you take into account taxes overseas and insurance premiums here in the US) is that over there, you are insured without annual or lifetime maximums, and regardless of your health condition. Over here, your insurance premiums depend on your health, and the coverage also depends on what you are carrying with you in terms of chronic diseases when signing up for the insurance. The insurance is a business in the US, where it is a service to people elsewhere.
Look at your, e.g. dental plan. Try to go to get your teeth cleaned 3 times a year. Or, try to put two crowns in a single calendar year. You're up for a surprise. Also, check your medical lifetime limits. Sure, you will hear people talk about how emergency rooms will see anyone here for free... try emergency rooms when you have a chronic illness such as cancer. You may go there once, or twice, but they do not give chemothreapy in the ER rooms, nor you can get continuous care there. You have to pay for that one. And, there are limits to how much you can ask your insurance to cover for you.
If you have some insurance plan that does not suffer from those maximums and different percentages (50%, 80%, etc) for non-preventive services, I'd be happy to hear about it. I need it for my family members, that are now old enough that the preventive does not cut it for them any more. And ER does not work either. (not that we've tried it).
Cheers! and stay healthy, y'all! that way you can argue how it is great that you do not have to pay money for the care of others...
-S. |
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06/10/2008 09:58:16 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Number two if there are no jobs in your area MOVE! |
And if that's not possible?
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06/10/2008 11:54:00 PM · #86 |
Why would that not be possible? I mean really.. So you might say "I'm in a dead in carear".. Well go back to school and change your profession. "I can't I have to support the rest of my family". Millions of people each year in the country do it every day. What makes one person able to suceed when others fail. Usually they quit making excuses and get off their butt and work hard to achieve what they need to do. So yeah pretty much I see most of the people who fail to make a living as an excuse. As I stated before if people will quit making excuses and start taking responsiblility for their actions then there is no one to blame but their self when they fail.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Number two if there are no jobs in your area MOVE! |
And if that's not possible? |
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06/11/2008 10:13:25 AM · #87 |
coronamv,
Because you personally were able to get good health insurance, that means U.S. health care is in good shape. Your logic speaks for itself. |
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06/11/2008 10:30:45 AM · #88 |
coronamv,
I truly am happy that you currently have the good fortune of having great insurance and a wonderful job that meets your every expectation. It is unfortunate however that your apparent nearsightedness does not enable you to even consider that you too could someday be caught in a predicament which would seriously test your mettle and perhaps even give rise to feelings or exasperation.
As an aside, while I do appreciate your point on view in this regard, I fail to see just how your life experiences are related to thread topic, namely "Terrorists"
Ray |
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06/11/2008 12:03:43 PM · #89 |
Well I will not stand and be the one blamed for changing the subject. If you have been paying attention here is where is diverts into left field. No pun intented. I also do not beleive it is a singular case of me being lucky as you want everyone to believe. I believe millions of Americans today live happy productive lives. I also believe it is the ones who do not and will not prepare for the worst of sucumstances that sircum to them when they occur. I believe ones personal strife to better ones self is what makes this country great. And to take that hard working persons hard earned money and give it to someone else is just plain wrong. Rayethier thank you for your comment you just proved by the personal attack " I'm not being nearsighted" that you lack the ability to continue on a logical debate. Posthumous, lets disect everyone heres situation and see where we stand. I gave you my facts now lets here yours. Help me to better understand. I do see many people who cannot aford healthcare everyday. Usually they are uneducated and it usually a is a trait passed down from generation to generation. My parents taught me to strive to be better and live a better life. I can say I have known people who just were satisfied with the minimal and then they gripe about not having. It is more like a two faced arguement. Either you work hard and achieve or you don't. I'm just an example of someone who prove it as being capable to achieve. So I use myself as an example of what is possible.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Just quickly: The current administration has changed some of the metrics for unemployment, inflation, etc. to make the numbers look better (I don't know the details, but in many countries people are no longer counted as unemployed after a few years, even if they still don't have a job).
About "many": There are things that are basically not known in Europe that occur quite frequently in the US. People going bankrupt because of health care bills, for example. You have to admit that your health care system is quite a mess and way more expensive than anything comparable in Europe. And let's see what the coming months will bring. The number of Americans receiving food stamps is projected to reach 28 million next year, for example, the highest level since the program began in the sixties.
We are digressing again. The point I was trying to make is that there are many good ways in which you could spend a couple trillion dollars that would actually improve people's lives... |
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06/11/2008 01:02:33 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Rayethier thank you for your comment you just proved by the personal attack " I'm not being nearsighted" that you lack the ability to continue on a logical debate. |
I am truly intrigued as to just how you arrived at that conclusion.
How does my suggesting that you probably have not considered that you too could end up in a dire predicament equate with your perception that I cannot continue a logical debate.
I too have worked hard, put myself through school and managed to meet all of my financial obligations, but I certainly do not harbour any resentment to those less fortunate. Yes there are some that would take advantage of altruistic donours, but most of those in need are "working poor", who, contrary to your views are ill prepared to embark on a major restructuring endeavour.
I will agree with you that education is a great place to start, but a panacea it surely isn't since schools in affluent neighbourhoods tend to have the best and latest of equipment, and the curriculum is significantly more advanced than those in the poorer districts.
There is indeed room for improvement, but the process to arrive at this end ought not be one that is visited solely on the individual, but rather should be the effort of the collective.
Ray
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06/11/2008 01:32:31 PM · #91 |
| I keep wondering where it says in the constitution you get free healthcare. free food and shelter. These are socialism and marcist ideas. The United States was not founded on these principles. This country was founded on freedom from high taxation and the idea that you can achieve anything your heart desires if you put you back into it. Ray I pointed out the breakdown in your attack on my character by you stating I'm nearsighted would be like me calling you an idiot for not agreeing with me. That was an example not a statement. So I hope you now understand my point. Personal attacks have no place in a debate. Show me the facts tell me your personal strife. It seems you have did what you had to do to have a decent if not good life.. SO I ask you again if we can do it why can others not? Life liberty and the pursuit of happyness. Not wellfare, handouts and redistribution of wealth. I challenge anyone who thinks redistribution of wealth is a good idea to take their paycheck and give half to a stranger. |
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06/11/2008 01:55:22 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
The United States was not founded on these principles. This country was founded on freedom from high taxation ... |
No, it was the issue of unrepresented taxation -- taxes set by an absolute and unlimited authority -- which prompted the Revolution.
What the heck do you think the purpose of forming a "society" is, anyway? "Everyone for himself" sounds more like the law of the jungle, not civilization, to me ... |
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06/11/2008 01:58:13 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Why would that not be possible? I mean really.. So you might say "I'm in a dead in carear".. Well go back to school and change your profession. "I can't I have to support the rest of my family". Millions of people each year in the country do it every day. What makes one person able to suceed when others fail. Usually they quit making excuses and get off their butt and work hard to achieve what they need to do. So yeah pretty much I see most of the people who fail to make a living as an excuse. As I stated before if people will quit making excuses and start taking responsiblility for their actions then there is no one to blame but their self when they fail.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Number two if there are no jobs in your area MOVE! |
And if that's not possible? |
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Would you sacrifice your family to do so, knowing that if you left, your family would not follow and would not be there when you return?
Assuming that you went back to school, how would you propose to feed your family during those school days? On loan money? That's assuming that you qualify, of course and student aid will barely pay for one person to attend school. Of course if you made any significant money over the past years, you won't qualify for aid anyway. How about health insurance? You can't afford coverage for a family as a student. Or would you just risk the welfare of your entire family and forgo insurance? What would you do if your child or your wife developed cancer or a similar condition and you had no insurance? Would you be able to look them in the eye and say, "I'm sorry you have to die a slow and painful death because Daddy needs to take some classes and we can't afford to help you."? Even if you quit school and took a new job with great insurance, your child would not qualify since the cancer would be a pre-existing condition.
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06/11/2008 02:13:26 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
I do see many people who cannot aford healthcare everyday. Usually they are uneducated and it usually a is a trait passed down from generation to generation. My parents taught me to strive to be better and live a better life. I can say I have known people who just were satisfied with the minimal and then they gripe about not having. It is more like a two faced arguement. Either you work hard and achieve or you don't. I'm just an example of someone who prove it as being capable to achieve. So I use myself as an example of what is possible.
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Let my example be the counter example to your example of fortune. I was unable to afford health insurance for an 11 month period after I was laid off. I worked every day to find work, it simply wasn't there. To cover my family with a high deductible policy would have cost nearly $900/mo and I would have had a $5,000 deductible with a $20,000 annual out-of-pocket max. As to being uneducated, you can judge for yourself, I have a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Professional Engineer's license. I applied for any and every position for which I was even remotely qualified. That's everything from customer service jobs and physical farm labor jobs to high level engineering positions. I suppose I could have gone back to get my PhD, but taking classes doesn't put food on the table.
You should consider yourself fortunate to not have an experience like mine, yet I find your attitude towards those less fortunate condescending and utterly naive. |
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06/11/2008 02:18:42 PM · #95 |
Well actually I will beg to differ if your are referring to the revolution yes but if your reffering to the pilgrams comming over it was to escape religious persecution. But the colonies did not want representation they wanted to not pay taxes at all. Yes representation was a factor in that decision, but it was the high taxes that drove the colonies to revolt. Taxes in this nation were never ment to be kept but givin back like a loan to the people who paid in. I will have to check my facts but I beleive it was a war time tarrif that started the federal level of taxation. And the purpose being to defend the greater nation. Not welfare. ok and here is the proof from the constitution.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
.......... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
.......... To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
.......... To coin money;
.......... To regulate the value of foreign coin;
.......... To fix the standard of weights and measures;
.......... To establish post-offices;
.......... To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
.......... To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
.......... To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
.......... To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
.......... To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
.......... To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its Legislature;
.......... To make war;
.......... To raise armies;
.......... To build and equip fleets;
.......... To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; |
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06/11/2008 02:27:15 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well actually I will beg to differ if your are referring to the revolution yes but if your reffering to the pilgrams comming over it was to escape religious persecution. But the colonies did not want representation they wanted to not pay taxes at all. Yes representation was a factor in that decision, but it was the high taxes that drove the colonies to revolt. Taxes in this nation were never ment to be kept but givin back like a loan to the people who paid in. I will have to check my facts but I beleive it was a war time tarrif that started the federal level of taxation. And the purpose being to defend the greater nation. Not welfare. ok and here is the proof from the constitution.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
.......... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
.......... To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
.......... To coin money;
.......... To regulate the value of foreign coin;
.......... To fix the standard of weights and measures;
.......... To establish post-offices;
.......... To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
.......... To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
.......... To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
.......... To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
.......... To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
.......... To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its Legislature;
.......... To make war;
.......... To raise armies;
.......... To build and equip fleets;
.......... To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; |
So? Exclusion of taxes from that list is not proof of anything.
The Founding Fathers were smart enough to know that money to achieve all of those things was not going to fall from the sky. Do you think they were planning to sell Girl Scout cookies or what?
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06/11/2008 02:27:40 PM · #97 |
Sounds pretty bad. SO your sure you coud not find work? Any form of work? I mean any form of work to provide for your family? Now I say this not knowing you so please do not take this offensivly but were some jobs beneith you? Were you offered any jobs and refused them cause you did not agree with something like the wage or salary or benefits work schedule or location? WHy I ask is this is usually the case for some one being out of work for that extended period of time with your qualifications.
WHat part of the country do you live in, what is your legal status? Are you married and have children. Could your wife not work if so. Do you have any family to help you in your time of need? I don't see myself as fortunate since I have worked hard to get to where I'm at. I can tell you this something is wrong if with your degrees you could not find a job. I can go search and find many jobs that would provide a nice salary and good benefits for someone with your qualifications. Now let me say if you cannot except a job due to the pay will not provide you to continue your life style then its time to trim the fat.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
I do see many people who cannot aford healthcare everyday. Usually they are uneducated and it usually a is a trait passed down from generation to generation. My parents taught me to strive to be better and live a better life. I can say I have known people who just were satisfied with the minimal and then they gripe about not having. It is more like a two faced arguement. Either you work hard and achieve or you don't. I'm just an example of someone who prove it as being capable to achieve. So I use myself as an example of what is possible.
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Let my example be the counter example to your example of fortune. I was unable to afford health insurance for an 11 month period after I was laid off. I worked every day to find work, it simply wasn't there. To cover my family with a high deductible policy would have cost nearly $900/mo and I would have had a $5,000 deductible with a $20,000 annual out-of-pocket max. As to being uneducated, you can judge for yourself, I have a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Professional Engineer's license. I applied for any and every position for which I was even remotely qualified. That's everything from customer service jobs and physical farm labor jobs to high level engineering positions. I suppose I could have gone back to get my PhD, but taking classes doesn't put food on the table.
You should consider yourself fortunate to not have an experience like mine, yet I find your attitude towards those less fortunate condescending and utterly naive. |
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06/11/2008 02:30:04 PM · #98 |
It does prove the original purpose of taxation at least at the federal level. Not for welfare or healthcare. Personally I wish we did not have to pay into social security. I would rather manage my own future and not have to rely on someone else.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well actually I will beg to differ if your are referring to the revolution yes but if your reffering to the pilgrams comming over it was to escape religious persecution. But the colonies did not want representation they wanted to not pay taxes at all. Yes representation was a factor in that decision, but it was the high taxes that drove the colonies to revolt. Taxes in this nation were never ment to be kept but givin back like a loan to the people who paid in. I will have to check my facts but I beleive it was a war time tarrif that started the federal level of taxation. And the purpose being to defend the greater nation. Not welfare. ok and here is the proof from the constitution.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
.......... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
.......... To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
.......... To coin money;
.......... To regulate the value of foreign coin;
.......... To fix the standard of weights and measures;
.......... To establish post-offices;
.......... To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
.......... To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
.......... To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
.......... To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
.......... To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
.......... To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its Legislature;
.......... To make war;
.......... To raise armies;
.......... To build and equip fleets;
.......... To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; |
So? Exclusion of taxes from that list is not proof of anything.
The Founding Fathers were smart enough to know that money to achieve all of those things was not going to fall from the sky. Do you think they were planning to sell Girl Scout cookies or what? |
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06/11/2008 02:31:56 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
It does prove the original purpose of taxation at least at the federal level. Not for welfare or healthcare. Personally I wish we did not have to pay into social security. I would rather manage my own future and not have to rely on someone else.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well actually I will beg to differ if your are referring to the revolution yes but if your reffering to the pilgrams comming over it was to escape religious persecution. But the colonies did not want representation they wanted to not pay taxes at all. Yes representation was a factor in that decision, but it was the high taxes that drove the colonies to revolt. Taxes in this nation were never ment to be kept but givin back like a loan to the people who paid in. I will have to check my facts but I beleive it was a war time tarrif that started the federal level of taxation. And the purpose being to defend the greater nation. Not welfare. ok and here is the proof from the constitution.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
.......... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
.......... To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
.......... To coin money;
.......... To regulate the value of foreign coin;
.......... To fix the standard of weights and measures;
.......... To establish post-offices;
.......... To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
.......... To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
.......... To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
.......... To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
.......... To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
.......... To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its Legislature;
.......... To make war;
.......... To raise armies;
.......... To build and equip fleets;
.......... To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; |
So? Exclusion of taxes from that list is not proof of anything.
The Founding Fathers were smart enough to know that money to achieve all of those things was not going to fall from the sky. Do you think they were planning to sell Girl Scout cookies or what? |
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what is the point in this statement? Why be an ass. Please keep the debate about the debate and keep your cool. |
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06/11/2008 02:37:41 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Originally posted by coronamv:
It does prove the original purpose of taxation at least at the federal level. Not for welfare or healthcare. Personally I wish we did not have to pay into social security. I would rather manage my own future and not have to rely on someone else.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well actually I will beg to differ if your are referring to the revolution yes but if your reffering to the pilgrams comming over it was to escape religious persecution. But the colonies did not want representation they wanted to not pay taxes at all. Yes representation was a factor in that decision, but it was the high taxes that drove the colonies to revolt. Taxes in this nation were never ment to be kept but givin back like a loan to the people who paid in. I will have to check my facts but I beleive it was a war time tarrif that started the federal level of taxation. And the purpose being to defend the greater nation. Not welfare. ok and here is the proof from the constitution.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
.......... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
.......... To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
.......... To coin money;
.......... To regulate the value of foreign coin;
.......... To fix the standard of weights and measures;
.......... To establish post-offices;
.......... To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
.......... To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
.......... To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
.......... To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
.......... To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
.......... To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its Legislature;
.......... To make war;
.......... To raise armies;
.......... To build and equip fleets;
.......... To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; |
So? Exclusion of taxes from that list is not proof of anything.
The Founding Fathers were smart enough to know that money to achieve all of those things was not going to fall from the sky. Do you think they were planning to sell Girl Scout cookies or what? |
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what is the point in this statement? Why be an ass. Please keep the debate about the debate and keep your cool. |
Sorry, I forgot your sense of humor is broken.
I will venture to suggest that you take your own advice. |
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