Corporal Punishment by a teacher on my daughter

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/27/2008 12:40:07 AM · #101

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Then I'm afraid I missed the point of your post, sorry.

No apology is necessary. I was just poking a bit of fun at Spazmo99's last post. If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I too disagree with the way the teacher handled the incident with the OP's daughter. I also disagree with the posters that say making a child sit as a desk is a form of torture. I see that as ludicrous and inflammatory.

BeeCee

Nikon D40

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

05/27/2008 12:42:15 AM · #102

Originally posted by Mick:

Originally posted by BeeCee:
Then I'm afraid I missed the point of your post, sorry.

No apology is necessary. I was just poking a bit of fun at Spazmo99's last post. If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I too disagree with the way the teacher handled the incident with the OP's daughter. I also disagree with the posters that say making a child sit as a desk is a form of torture. I see that as ludicrous and inflammatory.

Ahh, I see, thanks.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/27/2008 12:59:22 AM · #103

Originally posted by Mick:

I also disagree with the posters that say making a child sit as a desk is a form of torture. I see that as ludicrous and inflammatory.

That's sitting at a desk, face down on the desk, hands at one's sides, for twenty minutes or so. Try it sometime ... besides, it's not really the degree of pain which defines torture in any moral sense -- despite Mr. Rumsfeld's tortured logic, I believe it's the intent to inflict pain and humiliation which becomes the critical criterion ...

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 02:39:19 AM · #104

Hell, if the teachers were REALLY cruel they would of made her voteon the current dapled light challenge.. now that was painful!

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/27/2008 02:48:05 AM · #105

Originally posted by Mick:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What I was reminded of by Slippy's description of the punishment was simply a less severe form of what goes on in interrogating a suspected terrorist.

Humiliation and stress positions have no place in education.

What's next, waterboarding kindergartners? Placing unruly 3rd graders in the stocks at recess?

I'd be having a "conversation" with both the principle AND the teacher in question and I would leave no question in their mind about what types of punishment I considered acceptable and that acceptable does not include physical punishment and public humiliation. If a teacher can't maintain order without resorting to military interrogation techniques, then they should not be teaching...period.

There are much better ways to address behaviors in an educational environment.

Ohmygod, I hope the military has better interrogation techniques than making a suspect sit at a desk until they talk. I can just imagine it...

Iterrogator:
"You vill give to us ze location of ze rebel forces or ve vill make you write 100 times on ze chalkboard."

Suspect:
"Oh please no! Anything but that!"

Iterrogator:
"Heh heh heh, yeessss! Und if zat does not loosing your tongue ve can always make you... SIT AT ZE DESK UND MAKE FUN OF YOU!!!"

Suspect:
"NOOOOOO!!! I'll talk! I'll talk!"

Pretty silly, isn't it? :)

No, it's not silly at all.

Google "stress positions" and the read the OP's description of what was done to his daughter.

Humiliation in front of their peers is also used to stress detainees.

Maybe you'd prefer just whacking little kids with a rubber hose?

Mick

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/27/2008 03:00:14 AM · #106

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mick:
I also disagree with the posters that say making a child sit as a desk is a form of torture. I see that as ludicrous and inflammatory.

That's sitting at a desk, face down on the desk, hands at one's sides, for twenty minutes or so. Try it sometime ... besides, it's not really the degree of pain which defines torture in any moral sense -- despite Mr. Rumsfeld's tortured logic, I believe it's the intent to inflict pain and humiliation which becomes the critical criterion ...

I disagree with your statement that the degree of pain inflicted makes no difference.

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary...

torture
2 entries found.

torture[1,noun]

Main Entry: torâ�¢ture
Pronunciation: \ ˈtȯr-chər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
Date: 1540
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

torture[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: torture
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): torâ�¢tured; torâ�¢turâ�¢ing \ ˈtȯrch-riŋ, ˈtȯr-chə-\
Date: 1588
1 : to cause intense suffering to : torment
2 : to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain
3 : to twist or wrench out of shape : distort, warp

Please notice the words â��agonyâ��, â��intense painâ��, â��intense sufferingâ��, and â��excruciating painâ�� in the definitions. Maybe you have some type of â��moral dictionaryâ�� that defines the word differently.

As for â��intent to inflict pain and humiliationâ��, I believe that intent is irrelevant. For example, I may intend to inflict excruciating pain on you, but if I tickle your nose with a feather, Iâ��m not going to achieve my intent. I suppose you could stretch a point and say that severe humiliation is a form of torture, but I believe that itâ��s simply humiliation, and humiliation humiliates the person inflicting the humiliation. Itâ��s inherent in the act. I believe that honorable people cannot be humiliated, except by their own actions.

05/27/2008 08:05:51 AM · #107

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:
...

Further to the story, it turns out there was one other classmate, a boy, in her class who was climbing a tree at the same time. He was punished the same way. His mother has also spoken to the principal about this teacher. The principal is supposed to speak with the teacher, today I guess. I also guess we'll either be hearing back form the principal, or have to contact her to follow up. As far as I'm concerned, the teacher and the principal are on the same team, so I don't trust the system.

...

Hmmm, so the story went from her being the only one punished, to now being one of two. So, like I said, the recollection of a 9 year old can be hazy sometimes..

No, blame that one on my wife, or me not listening clearly to my wife. An insignificant detail so you can say "I told you so". Aren't you too busy beating your children to keep up with this thread? :-P

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 08:10:13 AM · #108

Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I also guess we'll either be hearing back form the principal, or have to contact her to follow up. As far as I'm concerned, the teacher and the principal are on the same team, so I don't trust the system.

You can trust that it has minimised the chances of your daughter breaking her neck falling out of a tree.

We let her climb trees at parks and her grandparents' house. If we had a climbable tree in our yard she could climb it too, but she still has a lot of fun with her sister on a climber in our back yard. She has biceps and a six pack that my wife and I envy. I climbed trees, and my father climbed trees. Our necks are all intact. You, however, should stuff your kids safely under a rock.

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 08:20:26.

Louis

Nikon D800

05/27/2008 09:11:35 AM · #109

Originally posted by Simms:

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 10:34:15 AM · #110

Originally posted by Louis:

Hmmm, so the story went from her being the only one punished, to now being one of two. So, like I said, the recollection of a 9 year old can be hazy sometimes..

Erm.... you really think the nine year old knows which kids were and weren't punished, and which incidents were discussed by the principal with the teacher? Yeesh. Weren't you bitching about cherry-picking lately? [/quote]

With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying? But your very reply actually backs up what I was saying earlier.. read it through and see if you can work out what I mean by that.. good luck!

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 10:34:30.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/27/2008 10:46:01 AM · #111

Originally posted by Mick:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mick:
I also disagree with the posters that say making a child sit as a desk is a form of torture. I see that as ludicrous and inflammatory.

That's sitting at a desk, face down on the desk, hands at one's sides, for twenty minutes or so. Try it sometime ... besides, it's not really the degree of pain which defines torture in any moral sense -- despite Mr. Rumsfeld's tortured logic, I believe it's the intent to inflict pain and humiliation which becomes the critical criterion ...

I disagree with your statement that the degree of pain inflicted makes no difference.

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary...

torture
2 entries found.

torture[1,noun]

Main Entry: torâ�¢ture
Pronunciation: \ ˈtȯr-chər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
Date: 1540
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

torture[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: torture
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): torâ�¢tured; torâ�¢turâ�¢ing \ ˈtȯrch-riŋ, ˈtȯr-chə-\
Date: 1588
1 : to cause intense suffering to : torment
2 : to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain
3 : to twist or wrench out of shape : distort, warp

Please notice the words â��agonyâ��, â��intense painâ��, â��intense sufferingâ��, and â��excruciating painâ�� in the definitions. Maybe you have some type of â��moral dictionaryâ�� that defines the word differently.

As for â��intent to inflict pain and humiliationâ��, I believe that intent is irrelevant. For example, I may intend to inflict excruciating pain on you, but if I tickle your nose with a feather, Iâ��m not going to achieve my intent. I suppose you could stretch a point and say that severe humiliation is a form of torture, but I believe that itâ��s simply humiliation, and humiliation humiliates the person inflicting the humiliation. Itâ��s inherent in the act. I believe that honorable people cannot be humiliated, except by their own actions.

Please turn off your selective reading glasses and re-read your dictionary entries, note specifically the words "torment", and "anguish of body or mind". None of which require physical pain. Waterboarding does not involve inflicting pain rather it casues intense panic and fear via the sensation of drowning.

Torture does not have to include intense physical pain. In fact tickling has been used as a form of torture.

Regardless, I never claimed the punishment was torture, it's more akin to the interrogation techniques used with unwilling detainees and that's not torture. Extremely unpleasant, but not torture. Just because it may not be "torture" doesn't make it appropriate for use on 9 year-old children in school.

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 10:48:42.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 12:13:51 PM · #112

Originally posted by Simms:

With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying?

Indeed I do. You implied that the new information received came from the nine year old, which is absurd. If you now say that was not your intent, you should retract the relevant post entirely, because it makes no sense in any other context.

05/27/2008 12:36:29 PM · #113

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying?

Indeed I do. You implied that the new information received came from the nine year old, which is absurd. If you now say that was not your intent, you should retract the relevant post entirely, because it makes no sense in any other context.

no, not that bit.. keep trying.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 12:53:21 PM · #114

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying?

Indeed I do. You implied that the new information received came from the nine year old, which is absurd. If you now say that was not your intent, you should retract the relevant post entirely, because it makes no sense in any other context.

no, not that bit.. keep trying.

LOL. I think your parents may have beaten your head a bit too much.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/27/2008 12:53:57 PM · #115

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

So you are calling her honesty into question, or at least the accuracy of her report. What evidence, other than you own child's propensity for prevarication, do you have to make that accusation, and further to base your entire response to this situation on that presumption of inaccuracy?
I can tell you from personal experience (and that of my son) that a "liberal" social attitude and opposition to corporal punishment do not automatically lead to an abandonment of discipline or bad behavior on the part of kids.

OK, like I said in another posting, there are people on here who will dissect every little word one says like a lawyer in a court-room.

My evidence is I don't walk around with my eyes shut. I see what is happening with kids these days, you hear it on radio, on TV, one experiences it for oneself. You just `experience` it.. If you want me to finely detail everything I base my opinions on then I am sorry but I cant do that. However I know its not just MY kids, my other half works on the child-protection team for social services, and she knows calls come in saying that "my parents smacked me", and it HAS to be investigated, even if it was a tap across the ear, so as a result, the parents have to be investigated, and their other children interviewed, a report has to be filed. Generally it stops there, however, the next time the child is pushing the boundaries, the parents will not administer punishment as they dont need to go through that crap again, the child sees this as a green light to do whatever they like without repercussions.. and so the avalanche begins. And I am not just talking about kids from the lower class families (and you know exactly what I mean by that) but also kids from good, middle class homes.

As someone said earlier, we are the architects of the `spare the rod` society. I KNOW it has changed in the short space of time since I was a child. If I got caught f**king about when I was 10, 11, then I wouldn't be surprised to get a clip around the ear from a policeman/teacher etc and if I told my parents, I'd get another for good measure.. However, if that happened these days, the parents generally go mental at that person, sue for lots of money etc. and then the child then knows that authority-figures mean diddly-squat if you are under 18 years of age.. Hell, they can even get their parents arrested if they smack them. and the kids know this stuff.. and we have been rendered powerless by our own actions to do anything about it.

However, like I said earlier, I am not calling her honesty into question here, but her recollection of events as they happened, which when you are 9, get hazy very quickly. I pray she is wrong about it, as that means a teacher will be out of a job and a little girl will be scarred by the experience.

Still, dissect this as you see fit, but apply some common sense to what I am saying and dont nitpick every single little word.

So, because someone hit you when you were a kid, that should make it OK for any adult to smack kids around to "keep them in line", but unfortunately the law says that it's not?

Nice.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/27/2008 12:55:03 PM · #116

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying?

Indeed I do. You implied that the new information received came from the nine year old, which is absurd. If you now say that was not your intent, you should retract the relevant post entirely, because it makes no sense in any other context.

no, not that bit.. keep trying.

LOL. I think your parents may have beaten your head a bit too much.

My parents didn't beat my head.

and I dont `beat` my kids, a slap around the legs is hardly beating.

it's when I kick them in the teeth I feel I have overstepped the line.

Besides which, I only EVER hit them when I am drunk.. which is hardly ever.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

05/27/2008 12:58:21 PM · #117

Originally posted by Simms:

To be fair, I read your post to have the same meaning that [user]Louis[/user] did. If the way he (and I) read it is not what you intended, perhaps you could clarify your point instead of just making combative, patronizing statements about other participants.

~Terry

05/27/2008 12:59:24 PM · #118

Originally posted by Simms:

05/27/2008 01:01:57 PM · #119

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

........sniiip....

So, because someone hit you when you were a kid, that should make it OK for any adult to smack kids around to "keep them in line", but unfortunately the law says that it's not?

Nice.

That sort of thing also builds wife-beaters and women who put up with being beaten :-(

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/27/2008 01:02:13 PM · #120

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
With all due respect Louis, do you actually read any of what I write before replying?

Indeed I do. You implied that the new information received came from the nine year old, which is absurd. If you now say that was not your intent, you should retract the relevant post entirely, because it makes no sense in any other context.

no, not that bit.. keep trying.

To be fair, I read your post to have the same meaning that [user]Louis[/user] did. If the way he (and I) read it is not what you intended, perhaps you could clarify your point instead of just making combative, patronizing statements about other participants.

~Terry

I really cant be bothered to quote it all again for you, Louis or anyone else for that matter.. read it, and try to read it unbiasedly.

Personally I am happy to sit and see if Slippy lets us know what happened, or what the teachers say happened.. like anything, there are going to be 3 sides to this story eventually.. Miss Slippys, the Teachers and the truth..

(quick edit - when I say truth, I am NOT implying that the daughter is an out and out liar, see previous posts on the what my definition of `truth` is for a 9 year old).

I still stand by my belief that a little corporal punishment for kids if administered in a controlled fashion and not dealt out willy nilly is not a bad thing, does not mean you have failed as a parent and will not mentally scar your kids.

Look at me, I was slapped as a kid and I am as rational as the next man... :)

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 13:05:04.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

05/27/2008 01:07:52 PM · #121

Originally posted by Simms:

I really don't have a strong opinion on the "corporal punishment" part of the issue one way or the other. The part that bothered me the most, was the "so they could all laugh at her on their way out," if the teacher truly said that, which we don't know (but would be easy enough for the principal to confirm). I have a real problem with teachers encouraging students to ridicule other students for any reason. It encourages bullying and can have a life-long effect on the student. That said, we don't know if the teacher truly said that, so I'm reserving judgment until we know more.

I'm quite certain that my reading of the posts is unbiased. If I was not, I would have left the issue for another SC to handle.

~Terry

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 13:08:33.

05/27/2008 01:08:52 PM · #122

EDITED as it was controversial even for me..

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 13:10:45.