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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Corporal Punishment by a teacher on my daughter
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 05/24/2008 10:56:14 AM · #26
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Louis:

Sorry, but in my view your post puts you even further against the fringe. Also, you have muddied the issue here by explaining your unusual opinion of this event in terms of a generalized pattern of neglectful detached parenting in society at large. That's a dishonest reading of what happened: little girl climbed tree with other children; little girl had never been told tree-climbing was against the rules; little girl is selected by teacher for an especially humiliating and painful punishment.


We was told that was all she did.

We was told that was the punishment.

I am not saying Slippy is lying, god forbid, but maybe in his anger things have been left out, or exaggerated.

I wholeheartedly agree that if that punishment was dished out then it was WAY out of line. However, I am asking you, in a country like the USA, that sort of punishment for THAT kind of misdeamenaor would attract a LOT of attention, especially when the principle hasnt taken any action against the teacher.. Trust me, Oprah would soak that kind of story up and be throwing an open chequebook at Slippy and his little girl to hear the story..

I just feel something has been... left out.. or added in..

By all means let Slippy come back and tell me it is all 100% correct with no added artificial colours, preservatives or sweeteners. If so, I will accept the whole thing is completely out of line and would advise him to take this a lot further. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong.

which is pretty much never.. hahahahaha


Actually, no it wouldn't. The only way it would get national media attention is if someone sent it to the media, and if they felt it would be more interesting than the item of the day. Since we have this *thing* between Clinton and Obama right now, a little girl's excessive punishment wouldn't even cause a raised eyebrow.

Also, unless he has moved, Slippy's case wouldn't really matter to the US media, because he is in Canada.

AND, even if Slippy totally exaggerated, public humiliation is still wrong, simply because there are numerous other ways to deal with it, all of which would probably more effective.

When a teacher uses public humiliation as a "tool" for discipline, it will backfire and will usually result in the students having less respect for the teacher and less obedience. In the short term, there appears to be acquiescence, but as more students become humiliated, they tend to start to stand together against it, and discipline becomes more and more difficult because more and more students stop caring.

Message edited by author 2008-05-24 10:57:31.
 05/24/2008 11:00:22 AM · #27
Originally posted by karmat:
Speaking as a teacher, that was a pisspoor method of punishment. I can think of 10 or 15 more effective ways to deal with this off the top of my head.

The first being, getting eye level with your daughter and saying, "Honey, we don't climb trees, please don't do that again, okay?"

You child's teacher overreacted to the nth degree. IMO, punishment should never include public humiliation in front of peers. NEVER.


Originally posted by TCGuru:
I agree wholeheartedly. That was uncalled for. As far as the form of punishment goes, I agree that she should have just reprimanded her, especially if she had never been in trouble before. A simple, "We don't climb trees because we could fall and get hurt badly. If I catch you doing it again, there will be punishment." would have worked.

UGH!

And to the person who hated school... it's spelled climb.

There's no clear winners these days......mete out too strict a punishment, and you go down, too lax and you'll be run over, and no matter what, you punish little Johnny or Jane, and you'll hear about it......there's not enough money to pay me to be a teacher in this day and age.

That said, there is the occasional bad apple. As a parent of a middle school girl, I am constantly gnashing my teeth at supposed slights by teachers against my daughter.

The best method I have found is to call a meeting with all involved parties, and discuss it AFTER all parties have a chance to tell their version of the issue.

Sometimes just by being calm and seeking out the answers carefully is all it takes and the meeting doesn't have to happen, other times it will.

You do not want to make your daughter a pariah any more than you want this teacher running amok, but you don't have the other side of the story until you talk to this teacher.

If you have this meeting, and the story went down as you explain it, then the school will not be in a position to do anything BUT discipline the teacher......but until you're all in the room, you don't know, and that gives the school an out for now.

I've had my problems with my daughter's school on occasion, but I have yet to find an issue that could not be resolved as long as you follow it all through, be respectful, and keep your cool.

Personally, there are days when I want to take Art and get a good village fire going at the school, but I ususally simmer down about the time I realize what I have to do to go through the system.

BUT.....there was one occasion that I needed to follow the situation through, and despite the fact that I was ready to tear someone's head off, I went through the system properly.

What that did for me was to establish that we are reasonable parents who WILL follow through, but will also not back down. Our relationship with the scholl is cemented as a good relationship where they know that we don't just fly off the handle, but they also know that we have a zero tolerance for abuse.

It's hard to do that, but it's worth it, and my little girl is not a pariah, either.
 05/24/2008 11:08:40 AM · #28
Originally posted by karmat:
[

When a teacher uses public humiliation as a "tool" for discipline, it will backfire and will usually result in the students having less respect for the teacher and less obedience. In the short term, there appears to be acquiescence, but as more students become humiliated, they tend to start to stand together against it, and discipline becomes more and more difficult because more and more students stop caring.


the real problem is what instruments have a teacher for obtain the discipline from his students. as my personal experience the great punishment don't work. I think that there isn't an unique response, the times are changed we are in another age respect our parents, now if you want obtain some result with the students must be the leader of the group. this don't means that you must be a student but they must recognize in you the leadership.
 05/24/2008 11:23:53 AM · #29
Originally posted by Rino63:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Arrrrrr... when I were a lad we had real corporal punishment. Canes, wooden rulers, spanking bare buttocks (well, it was a Catholic school)

Them were the days....


mha..... I don't remember similar corporal punishment. when I was a boy and I was in the elementary schools I remember that the maximun could be go on the backside of the blackboard (if the blackboard wasn't near the wall) or outside the door for some minute......

I was in school in the UK in the 80s - before corporal punishment was banned.
 05/24/2008 11:28:39 AM · #30
Originally posted by Simms:
I am not saying Slippy is lying, god forbid, but maybe in his anger things have been left out, or exaggerated.

Personally, I don't see any reason to disbelieve him. What advantage does he have to gain by posting this story to an unrelated website at which he has a clear history? He would have to be thoroughly self-possessed (which, I grant you, in his case is perfectly possible :P).

Also, by suggesting that he's offering up a one-sided story, all you're really doing is refusing to believe the facts he's posted because you have a view that all parents are corrupt when it comes to disciplining their children. To you, his is merely one example of bad parenting. By not accepting him at his word, you're being grossly unfair to him and his kid in my opinion.

Edit: and yeah, Slip is Canadian.

Message edited by author 2008-05-24 11:30:22.
 05/24/2008 11:35:48 AM · #31
In response to Simms' comment about my story being wrong. It could be, as neither my wife nor I have had a meeting with the teacher. The principal did speak to the class, and my daughter's second session of discipline was cancelled, so she was allowed to go out for recess with her classmates. And I'm not a liar by facts nor omission, but I do understand I've had this information second-hand, but from reliable sources.

I've had a day to cool down, and still need to talk to my wife about whether or not we'll do anything more about this beyond her having spoken to the principal.

We're going to a party tonight where there will be several teachers and a principal from a different school board, and also a member of the Board of Education. The Board of Education is at the top of the food chain from what I know. Maybe we'll ask them what they think.

I have a hard time letting things go, but it's probably just testosterone. That being said, I'm still not a liar. My wife is very level-headed, and being from a family of educators she knows the lingo, so I prefer to let her speak for me anyway. I'd just screw things up by wearing a chicken suit, bringing a torch and burning stuff.

Oh well. The school year ends in about a month.
 05/24/2008 11:38:37 AM · #32
Slippy, I don't know how well you know this teacher. It sounds like you & your wife have already remedied this specific instance. Still, my humble advice would be to continue a line of action that includes meeting with the teacher to air this out and give her a chance to demonstrate if she now understands the issue, is sorry, and will change her discipline method (in particular, how does she now believe she should have handled it).

If this is a younger teacher it's possible that this incident may be part of her learning curve and she now realizes how inexcusable her actions were (not likely, but possible). I would take notes or even ask that the principal be in the meeting and, if you are not satisfied with he teacher's response to this problem, insist (don't request) that your daughter be moved immediately and never be in this teacher's class in future years. The principal should cooperate since the last thing they want are unhappy and possibly litigious parents to deal with. Even if the other teachers are sympathetic with their colleague, this will send a clear message to them that they can not get away with such inappropriate behavior around your child. Honestly, there's not much that teacher could say to me to keep my kid in that class short of an apology that includes a good explanation of how things are now different and perhaps even why she might have been having such a bad day.
(all the above just my humble opinion as a teacher of course)

I'm not surprised that there is some discussion here suggesting that the lack of corporal punishment has somehow ruined kids today. People making that argument have clearly not seen how an effective teacher manages a classroom without corporal punishment. Corporal punishment is the tool of the ignorant in my *very well educated and long practiced on this subject* opinion. If a teacher lacks basic non-corporal classroom management skills then they should not be allowed to teach until they go back to school and learn how to properly manage a classroom with some intelligence.
 05/24/2008 11:41:26 AM · #33
Originally posted by Louis:
.....snip.... He would have to be thoroughly self-possessed (which, I grant you, in his case is perfectly possible :P).....snip..

Hey, can't I be thoroughly self-possessed and honest at the same time?
:-P

I've always admitted freely to my self-possession.... I'm honest that way. It feels pretty strange to have my honesty called into question. :-/
 05/24/2008 11:56:32 AM · #34
The teacher wouldn't happen to be of Squirrel descent would she? That could explain a lot about this situation...

Message edited by author 2008-05-24 12:03:38.
 05/24/2008 12:07:38 PM · #35
Originally posted by Louis:


Also, by suggesting that he's offering up a one-sided story, all you're really doing is refusing to believe the facts he's posted because you have a view that all parents are corrupt when it comes to disciplining their children. To you, his is merely one example of bad parenting. By not accepting him at his word, you're being grossly unfair to him and his kid in my opinion.

Edit: and yeah, Slip is Canadian.


No, I am a parent and I know that generally speaking, as a parent, we refuse to believe that our own kids `shit don't stink` (and no nappy (diaper) gags here please).. I am just accusing him of being as guilty as me when it comes to believing your own children over anything else.. thats not really a bad thing, but I know my judgment has been clouded sometimes when it comes to my children.

And to say that I think parents are `corrupt when it comes to discipling their children`, thats not what I was saying, you know that and I know that, but you decided to put spin on it the way you saw fit. nice bit of misquoting there.

If anything, I believe the majority of parents are sometimes too scared to discipline their children, kids have wised up to that fact and thus we have the situation in schools and on the streets that we have today. My thoughts I wrote earlier were just a natural progression on my train of thought on this whole subject. Threads, rarely, if ever, stay 100% purely on-topic.

I am sure Slippy is big enough to realise this isn't a personal direct attack on him and his little girl, moreover, an observation. I know kids have an active imagination, so like I said, I don't think the whole story is being told, or more to the point, I believe that things may of been exaggerated in that way 9 year old kids have a great knack at doing and Slippy, being her doting father, would take that as gospel. and quite rightly so. however, I would of got to the bottom of the facts with all parties before venting it out in public, but thats his way, and good for him.

05/24/2008 01:36:16 PM · #36
I guess I am kinda biased, For the last 5 years with my 3 children, I have seen some of the bad things that some people placed in charge of children can do.
off topic-> On a good note, just last week, my oldest asked if before he turns 18 in August could he change his last name, and both his brother and sister want the sameâ€Â¦.<- off topic
 05/24/2008 02:41:37 PM · #37
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Rino63:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Arrrrrr... when I were a lad we had real corporal punishment. Canes, wooden rulers, spanking bare buttocks (well, it was a Catholic school)

Them were the days....


mha..... I don't remember similar corporal punishment. when I was a boy and I was in the elementary schools I remember that the maximun could be go on the backside of the blackboard (if the blackboard wasn't near the wall) or outside the door for some minute......

I was in school in the UK in the 80s - before corporal punishment was banned.


yes I know this (always when there are news from the schools I follow this) sometimes joking with my students this story and say that ban has dropped the last bastion of Western society. obviously this often causes a great laugh :)
 05/24/2008 03:20:04 PM · #38
Wikipedia has an interesting article on the subject of Corporal Punishment.

As I see it, the punishment that your daughter received, while ill advised, was not in any way corporal punishment. Moreover, it certainly was not any form of physical torture. Come on people, making a child sit at a desk is not physical torture.

I’m with karmat on this. Punishment should never include public humiliation in front of peers. I also agree with her suggestion for how the teacher should have handled the situation. In fact, psychological damage is probably the only real harm the girl suffered. However, making a big deal out of the incident would only make the situation worse by increasing your daughter’s humiliation in front of her peers. A private meeting between the parents, the teacher, and the school principal would be the best way to let them know of your displeasure over the teacher’s actions. To protect the teacher’s position as an authority figure, keep the meeting as quiet as possible. If the children were to view the meeting as a punishment of the teacher, it could seriously undermine the teacher’s authority. Destroying teachers is definitely not a good idea. You may as well burn books.

Mick
05/24/2008 08:18:55 PM · #39
I'll take Slippy (and his daughter) at their word and also assume that the teacher did not deny issuing the "next day head on desk get laughed at by the class" part of the punishment that the principal suspended. So, I agree with those who say there was no "corporal punishment", but the public humiliation is worse, IMO. I also went to a catholic school through third grade and those nuns swung a mean ruler and I was very often on the receiving end of it and deservedly so (I wasn't the angel most probably assume I was). I went to public schools from 4th grade on and in 5th grade I had a teacher who made a habit of publicly humiliating me until I had had enough and just walked out and left the school around midday. I hiked into the foothills near the school where I stayed until I decided to walk home late that evening. My parents did have me put in a different class, but I still took a lot of crap from students from my old class. Anyway - the point is that the humiliation was much more painful than getting my smacked a few times with a stick by Sister Whatshername. ;-)

I feel for ya, Slip - not a great way to start off in a new school.

And I'm sending Simms to the corner of this thread with a dunce cap on. :P

Message edited by author 2008-05-24 20:19:05.
 05/24/2008 08:26:38 PM · #40
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:


And I'm sending Simms to the corner of this thread with a dunce cap on. :P


What.. for having an opinion different to most of the whining liberals out there. If slippy came on here just to be patted on the back and have us sympathise and not to discuss it, then I misread his intent so in that case..

awwww, poor slippy, I hope the teacher gets fired for upsetting Miss Slippy.

There, happy now? I forgot I am not part of the `elitest clique` on DPC, god forbid I have an opinion. Still, go away, compose one of your `funny` montages about the whole situation and lets be done with it eh?
 05/24/2008 09:34:23 PM · #41
There's nothing wrong with disciplining kids. But there is everything wrong with an authority figure encouraging a group to single out one individual for ridicule and dis-respect. Aren't schools supposed to be combatting bullying, not encouraging it?
 05/24/2008 11:50:06 PM · #42
Originally posted by Simms:
And to say that I think parents are `corrupt when it comes to discipling their children`, thats not what I was saying, you know that and I know that, but you decided to put spin on it the way you saw fit. nice bit of misquoting there.

Umm....:
Originally posted by Simms:
...`grown-ups` are not allowed to chastise children these days, the fact that we wrap up our little bundles of joy up in cotton wool and woe-betide anyone who dares say anything out of line towards them...We all know that our OWN children are perfect and its the other little fuckers who cause the problems...We are scared of hurting our kids feelings...We are being programmed by TV and the authorities about what is the right way to bring up our children...They dump their children off with Nannies and boarding schools at the first opportunity, then congratulate themselves 18 years later when their kids make it into Oxford University (Harvard, Yale etc). And the child psychologist's? They wax lyrical about how we should talk to them and smacking their legs isnt the answer, but I bet most of them are career women who haven't got time to have their own children.

Oh yeah, that's a perfectly rational attitude to have toward the parenting skills of total strangers to you.
 05/25/2008 04:49:43 AM · #43
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:


And I'm sending Simms to the corner of this thread with a dunce cap on. :P


What.. for having an opinion different to most of the whining liberals out there. If slippy came on here just to be patted on the back and have us sympathise and not to discuss it, then I misread his intent so in that case..

awwww, poor slippy, I hope the teacher gets fired for upsetting Miss Slippy.

There, happy now? I forgot I am not part of the `elitest clique` on DPC, god forbid I have an opinion. Still, go away, compose one of your `funny` montages about the whole situation and lets be done with it eh?


With respect, Simms, I feel your argument in this thread has been largely unnecessary. I think everyone agrees that the 'class humiliation' method of punishment is a pretty shoddy way to treat a new pupil, or indeed any pupil, regardless of the circumstances - and this is just basic good teaching rather than the kind of 'wishy washy liberal' thinking you seem to be fighting against.

To an outsider on this thread, the impression you give is of someone basically using a thread to get up on their soapbox and have a good rant about the state of parenting and education, and there are parts of what you say that I would totally agree with, but the kind of heavy sarcasm as quoted above isn't going to do you any favours.
 05/25/2008 05:16:07 AM · #44
Originally posted by figaro:

To an outsider on this thread, the impression you give is of someone basically using a thread to get up on their soapbox and have a good rant about the state of parenting and education, and there are parts of what you say that I would totally agree with, but the kind of heavy sarcasm as quoted above isn't going to do you any favours.


No, this thread highlighted the typical attitude of parents.. Like Slippy said, the only version of events he has had are the ones from his 9 year old daughter.. Now I am not calling her honesty into question, but I have a 10 year old boy and I know they are prone to a certain amount of exagerration when relaying events back.. I was the same when I was a chlid and I daresay you was.

But hey it was OK for `Vote for Slippy` to get up on his soapbox about the situation, but as soon as someone dares dent his crown then they are a heathen.

As I said before, if the events are EXACTLY like Slippy relayed in here after meeting with the teacher in question then I will be the first to put my hands up and say how incredibly wrong the whole situation is and I hope the teacher gets severaly reprimanded. If not, then I certainly hope we hear the conclusion to this whole episode.
 05/25/2008 07:30:12 AM · #45
Originally posted by Simms:
But hey it was OK for `Vote for Slippy` to get up on his soapbox about the situation, but as soon as someone dares dent his crown then they are a heathen.

You forgot the ':p' at the end, to make things better.
 05/25/2008 07:50:59 AM · #46
Originally posted by Simms:
Do you think she will break the rules again?

No, neither do I.

So the punishment worked.. what does that tell you.

...

awwww, poor slippy, I hope the teacher gets fired for upsetting Miss Slippy.

Still, go away, compose one of your `funny` montages about the whole situation and lets be done with it eh?


Again, I don't disagree with anything you said in the last post. Though as a child I was pretty damn angelic (hehe), of course I was prone to the occasional bit of exaggeration. But that's all you needed to say - it's the tone of the stuff above which I find unnecessary, and that's why people have reacted to it in the way they have (though I'd hardly class Art's pretty harmless remark as an attack that warrants the above response... but maybe I'm just too polite) :p
 05/25/2008 08:17:23 AM · #47
Originally posted by Simms:
I forgot I am not part of the `elitest clique` on DPC, god forbid I have an opinion. Still, go away, compose one of your `funny` montages about the whole situation and lets be done with it eh?

Actually, I always felt you were part of the elite here. I can only interpret your comments in this thread to your having a bad day or something. My comment was a jest - it's a terible habit of mine. Now send Mr. Hyde away and bring back the good Dr. Jekyll.
 05/25/2008 08:28:00 AM · #48
I guess on further reflection I can see some of what Mark says is correct. Hell being a stepfather to 3 to walk that age group, I know all to well what it’s like to slam my head against a wall in frustration as to what to do. I think the crux of the problem is most of us still wear the scars of how violent parents, and teachers could be. Yet, on the other hand, we are seeing the first results of young adults in the “spare the rod” generation. With their ass hanging out, and stereo violating the sanctity of our homes. We have the start of a generation that has no respect for authority, that somehow believes the world somehow owes them for living.
So here we are as parents, mostly confused. Knowing full well the old way left painful scars, and the hands off experiment seems to be failing. What is too much? What is not enough? At what age? And by whom?
I don’t think it is our generation that will figure it out. Hopefully those 9 and 10 year olds get it right..
 05/25/2008 08:32:49 AM · #49
Originally posted by alans_world:
I guess on further reflection I can see some of what Mark says is correct. Hell being a stepfather to 3 to walk that age group, I know all to well what it’s like to slam my head against a wall in frustration as to what to do. I think the crux of the problem is most of us still wear the scars of how violent parents, and teachers could be. Yet, on the other hand, we are seeing the first results of young adults in the “spare the rod” generation. With their ass hanging out, and stereo violating the sanctity of our homes. We have the start of a generation that has no respect for authority, that somehow believes the world somehow owes them for living.
So here we are as parents, mostly confused. Knowing full well the old way left painful scars, and the hands off experiment seems to be failing. What is too much? What is not enough? At what age? And by whom?
I don’t think it is our generation that will figure it out. Hopefully those 9 and 10 year olds get it right..


Wonderfully put... nice one!
 05/25/2008 08:41:43 AM · #50
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Simms:
I forgot I am not part of the `elitest clique` on DPC, god forbid I have an opinion. Still, go away, compose one of your `funny` montages about the whole situation and lets be done with it eh?


Actually, I always felt you were part of the elite here. I can only interpret your comments in this thread to your having a bad day or something. My comment was a jest - it's a terible habit of mine. Now send Mr. Hyde away and bring back the good Dr. Jekyll.


Me? in a clique? God no... perish the thought.

I know you joke around, and I felt pretty rotten about the `go away and put a montage together` thing, but at the time the red mist was swirling around, and yes maybe the whole thing has struck a particularly tender chord with me. But I don't apologise for causing any offence with my opinions and beliefs and I am will still very very intrigued to hear the story once the Slippy clan have approached the teacher in question. Thats obviously if he wants to share the information, which I'd assume he has been put off doing now..
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