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02/18/2010 03:15:05 PM · #1301 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I think you have a warped view of Sin, Grace, Justification, etc... God didn't cast out Gandhi. Gandhi cast himself out by not accepting the truth. |
Whose truth? Maybe Gandhi was more concerned about being a selfless humanitarian than he was serving some God. Who says he didn't accept the truth? Maybe he got it right and you're the misguided one. Thimngs is, I just do not accept this chosen splinter of humanity being the only ones who get it. Sorry, but's it's just wrong. And I mean wrong as in it defies sense, decency, and any consideration for humans as a whole.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God doesn't reject humans, humans reject God. The overarching theme of the entire Bible is God's plan to redeem humanity. It seems to me that you're thinking all humans should deserve Salvation and God rejects the ones he doesn't like. |
I never said any such thing as humans deserve salvation, never implied it, never inferred it.
Humans reject God???? You mean like people who live in places that never hear of your God? They just get cooked because ignorance is no excuse, right?
That's horrible!
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
The correct way of thinking is that all humans deserve condemnation |
That's total garbage. On what basis? What someone supposedly did thousands of years ago? For that *I* am condemned????
If that's the premise, I reject it out of hand.
What person with one iota of sense would buy into that premise?
Hell of a sales technique.......you're a bad human being, but if you drop and pray, and promise to do things our way and renounce all else, I can get you in.
No thanks!
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
and God's plan is that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved. Gandhi did some great things, but ultimately it's not what we do that saves us, it's what Christ did. |
So......since he didn't toe the party line, his life and work meant nothing?
Again, I reject that.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
We cannot coerce God into giving us grace by doing good things. He's put the grace on the platter and set the table for us and all we have to do is acknowledge that Christ did everything that we're incapable of doing. |
Again, people doing good things for others in most people's minds are not acts of coercion to get what they want from God. They are things done by caring and compassionate people for those who need their help.
If that's not a good reason, then fine, I reject your faith......again.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
It also seems like you have a warped view of worship (giving God the glory). Worshiping God and giving him glory is not some form of mechanical fealty. What God desires is our affection and our trust, glory is just what he deserves because of who He is. |
Okay......and he deserves this because I must accept him that says I am a sinner, and condemned, why?
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
We worship God because he is holy, loving, and good, not because we're afraid he'll destroy us if we don't. |
Yeah.....this condemned sinner sure has that good warm fuzzy about this God who is supposedly so holy, loving and good.......as long as I renounce everything that I am, of course.
You tell us what'll happen.....we are cast out if we don't buy into it. You seriously think that negative reinforcement like that doesn't have an impact?
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Holding on to some hope that God will reward you for doing good things even if you never believed in him is a form of pride and works-righteousness (grace by works). |
Some of us do good things because it's the right thing to do, not for some carrot that supposedly comes our way for the correct behavior. Maybe people can just be good. But that'd fly in the face of your contention that all humans are bad.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
We need realize that we are completely and utterly incapable of saving ourselves by what we do and that we are only saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Even the very faith that we put in Christ is a gift from God, otherwise we would be inclined to say, "I saved myself because I decided to believe" which implies that we are saved because of our own decision. God poured out his love on humanity when he sent his own Son to pour out his life for humanity. That is what grace is. |
So tell me again why this completely mean, hateful, demoralizing, debilitating way of designating our very being, and suffering the consequences if we don't is supposed to show us what holy, loving, and good really means????
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Good deeds don't matter to God unless there is faith driving the good deeds. Works without faith are meaningless to God. |
So......if you do something good for someone just because......it doesn't mean squat unless you believe in God?
I guess you don't really have any idea what this sounds like. This is the most horrible description I think I have ever heard someone relate as it pertains to Christianity. What makes it so scary is that you're so earnest and devout in your attempts to have someone see this. You have succeeded only in making this ever so much more distasteful to me. I know so many people who are good and decent, who spend time and effort working with kids, homeless, offering services for no compensation to people who cannot pay, and they do this without conditions, and gladly. Some of the people I know wouldn't have time to wrap up in this thing you're offering because they're too busy helping people.
I'm sorry, but if you cannot see what a sick and twisted idea this is to someone who is trying to make sense of it, thenm I'm at a loss.
You're never going to sell it to most thinking, caring, loving, good and decent people that they are sinners and condemned unless they bow to this program. If all you're offering is relief from the condemnation you're providing in the first place, I'll skip the process and live in love, peace, and harmony amongst my fellow man.
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02/18/2010 04:00:38 PM · #1302 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Think of it like this: |
Originally posted by Louis:
Okay. After occurrance number 1,761, I have to say something.
Please. Please stop using this exhortation. I find it belittling. |
It is this very thing that made me accuse Johnny of thinking he was better than the rest of us.
It indicates the assumption that we couldn't possibly understand without his guidance.
One of the lines in his analogy that I found interesting was this one.....
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
However, if you really love the kids but don't really care much about the woman, then she might appreciate your kindness but you won't have a lasting place in her life. |
An example of why I said before that you don't know much about people.
If you love her kids, you will *always* have a lasting place in her life. One of the things about motherhood, and parenthood, is that those that are decent, kind, and loving to your children are those who will have a place in your heart forever.
Although, I would find it very odd if you truly loved the kids that you wouldn't care about their mother......that just makes no sense.
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02/18/2010 04:03:24 PM · #1303 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
.... If all you're offering is relief from the condemnation you're providing in the first place, I'll skip the process and live in love, peace, and harmony amongst my fellow man. |
AMEN ;)
btw - does anyone else wonder if  johnnyphoto is just a fake profile, to keep Jeb irritated? ok, I don't really believe that. but he IS quite adept at stirring the pot with very common excuses justifications re: xtianity
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02/18/2010 04:08:38 PM · #1304 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
.... If all you're offering is relief from the condemnation you're providing in the first place, I'll skip the process and live in love, peace, and harmony amongst my fellow man. |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
AMEN ;) |
Dude! Are you allowed to say Amen????
Originally posted by rossbilly:
btw - does anyone else wonder if johnnyphoto is just a fake profile, to keep Jeb irritated? ok, I don't really believe that. but he IS quite adept at stirring the pot with very common excuses justifications re: xtianity |
I'm more aghast than irritated. The more I hear, and the more strange and bizarre these explanations and analogies get, the less interested I would ever be.
Is this really how it works?
That's just scary!
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02/18/2010 05:04:45 PM · #1305 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
btw - does anyone else wonder if johnnyphoto is just a fake profile, to keep Jeb irritated? |
I think there's already an app for that. Several actually. :P
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02/18/2010 06:13:10 PM · #1306 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
btw - does anyone else wonder if johnnyphoto is just a fake profile, to keep Jeb irritated? |
I think there's already an app for that. Several actually. :P |
JebStirrer and Exasper 8 are both good, with lots of bogus claims and unsubstantiated reference material, but I prefer BadBoyd. The Strike-A-Nerve feature alone is worth the purchase price. |
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02/18/2010 06:20:07 PM · #1307 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Think of it like this: |
Okay. After occurrance number 1,761, I have to say something.
Please. Please stop using this exhortation. I find it belittling. |
LOL! After all the belittling things that have been said about me (including things that you've said Louis) you find this to be offensive. That's hysterical!
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Rather sad that a benevolant God would condemn all of those that do not believe in Christ to eternal damnation regardless of the reasons.
Ray |
Again, condemnation and final judgment is really just a matter of God giving people what they want. If you want to be in a relationship with God then you go to heaven. If you don't want to have anything to do with God, or you straight-up reject him, then you've already set yourself on a collision course with hell. God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself, and since we have free will God doesn't forcefully stop us, he lets us choose.
Originally posted by Melethia:
So if you are unlucky enough to live where there isn't internet in your language or a missionary in your village, or you lived in a time before the internet and no one ever told you the story of Jesus Christ, you are doomed to a life in hell, even though you never knew about it? |
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20. Creation itself testifies to God's glory, and everyone has seen creation. If you reject this then you've already rejected God, even if you've never heard his name. God is merciful and he will judge you based on what you know and and what has been given to you.
Originally posted by scalvert:
If God didn't reject humans by default, you wouldn't have to win back good standing from the moment of birth. Declaring everyone, including newborns, to be mortal sinners and condemning them to eternal torture for insufficient adoration can only be the imagination of petty humans. That such adoration is only possible if you believe the disputed, vague and fairly recent claims of anonymous authors in lost original documents written from the oral traditions of one region of the world only compounds the skepticism. God should be tickled pink and turning cartwheels that ANYBODY buys this. |
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. You've got it (Christian theology) backwards again. You might think I'm the one who's backwards, and you're entitled to believe that, but we're not examining Johnnyphoto we're examining Christian Theology. |
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02/18/2010 06:31:36 PM · #1308 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
LOL! After all the belittling things that have been said about me... |
I would caution you not to confuse the ridiculing of the arguments you put forward with belittling you personally. Nobody is interested in belittling anyone. Conflating a position against your argument, however forceful, with a personal attack against you is a serious mistake. |
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02/18/2010 06:43:45 PM · #1309 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you want to be in a relationship with God then you go to heaven. If you don't want to have anything to do with God, or you straight-up reject him, then you've already set yourself on a collision course with hell. |
I don't know why you speak in absolutist terms like this in a thread with as many diverse participants as this one, but you seem to need reminding that people don't reject god (since there's nothing to reject), they reject the proposition that gods exist, and very specifically that personalized gods like the one you believe in exist. Rejoining the sad head-shakings of affirmed unbelievers with reproofs like yours seems like both a waste of time and an act of hubris to me, but anyway.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. |
Think of it like this. |
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02/18/2010 06:54:09 PM · #1310 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Melethia:
So if you are unlucky enough to live where there isn't internet in your language or a missionary in your village, or you lived in a time before the internet and no one ever told you the story of Jesus Christ, you are doomed to a life in hell, even though you never knew about it? |
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20. Creation itself testifies to God's glory, and everyone has seen creation. If you reject this then you've already rejected God, even if you've never heard his name. God is merciful and he will judge you based on what you know and and what has been given to you. |
So the native Americans are good to go. They cherished the Earth and what she gave them, even though they did not know of Christ or Christianity. Yes? |
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02/18/2010 06:58:35 PM · #1311 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
So the native Americans are good to go. They cherished the Earth and what she gave them, even though they did not know of Christ or Christianity. Yes? |
Ah, but those helpful Europeans brought typhus and small pox and Jesus to them, so they bloody well should know. Either way, unless they accept a Hellenized Jew that lived in first century Roman occupied Palestine as the saviour of the universe, those aboriginals are doomed to burn for all eternity, no matter how rich their culture. |
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02/18/2010 07:15:57 PM · #1312 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. |
Babies reject God at birth using free will. Riiiiiight! |
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02/18/2010 07:29:06 PM · #1313 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. |
Babies reject God at birth using free will. Riiiiiight! |
I'm still waiting for the rationalization of free will and predestination.
I really do not see how both can be in play. They are, by their definitions, mutually exclusive. |
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02/18/2010 08:02:53 PM · #1314 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. |
Babies reject God at birth using free will. Riiiiiight! |
I'm still waiting for the rationalization of free will and predestination.
I really do not see how both can be in play. They are, by their definitions, mutually exclusive. |
Man, I had a great Rant free day. It's sunny outside and I wanna take some pictures. But I've contemplated this one quite a bit because it's a good question. Here's the best I've come up with.
They are different sides of the same coin. One is qualitative; the other is quantitative.
People concerned with Free Will ask this: Do I bring something to the deal of salvation? And the answer is, of course, yes; yourself. You choose to participate in the transaction.
People concerned with predestination ask this: Compared to God, what do I bring to the deal of salvation? And the answer is, of course, nothing. God chose your parents, your place of birth, the era you were born in, your genetic potential, all of which is completely out of your control and plays a very large role in who you become. God also brings the ability to save along with the grievance against you. In effect, God seems to hold all the cards.
The first is qualitative (yes or no), the second is quantitative (how much).
That's the conclusion I've come to anyway. Your mileage may vary.
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02/18/2010 08:07:47 PM · #1315 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
JebStirrer and Exasper 8 are both good, with lots of bogus claims and unsubstantiated reference material, but I prefer BadBoyd. The Strike-A-Nerve feature alone is worth the purchase price. |
Keep it up......I'll drown you at Rickett's this summer!......8>)
Exasper 8.....I don't care who ya are, THAT'S funny!
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02/18/2010 08:14:57 PM · #1316 |
That's awesome!
Gotta tell ya.......sure seems like the brutal, short version to me.
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02/18/2010 08:20:04 PM · #1317 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
God chose your parents, your place of birth, the era you were born in, your genetic potential, all of which is completely out of your control and plays a very large role in who you become. God also brings the ability to save along with the grievance against you. In effect, God seems to hold all the cards. |
This is no life at all. What's the point?
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02/18/2010 08:31:59 PM · #1318 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
God chose your parents, your place of birth, the era you were born in, your genetic potential, all of which is completely out of your control and plays a very large role in who you become. God also brings the ability to save along with the grievance against you. In effect, God seems to hold all the cards. |
This is no life at all. What's the point? |
I don't quite get what you are asking.
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02/18/2010 08:42:26 PM · #1319 |
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 21:12:40.
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02/18/2010 08:44:17 PM · #1320 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
God chose your parents, your place of birth, the era you were born in, your genetic potential, all of which is completely out of your control and plays a very large role in who you become. |
My parents chose each other and the place of birth. Era and genetic potential were an inescapable consequence of that selection. The same thing would/does happen with NO god.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...The first is qualitative (yes or no), the second is quantitative (how much). |
That doesn't appear to answer (or even address) the question of mutually exclusive free will vs. predestination. 'Choosing to participate' also brings up another problem: the whole capital offense of being human apparently stems from Original Sin— one single act that condemns all of humanity. Since then, there is no "free will" decision involved the offense. You're supposedly born into a state of universal disapproval without any participation whatsoever. So now we've got the flip side— one single act absolves all of humanity from the crime. Ah, but now there's a catch... you have to believe that the act occurred despite suspect details available to comparatively few. There's certainly no requirement that we have to believe the crime occurred to be be condemned, and we're not born into a state of absolution. Again, this only makes sense as an imaginary construct of regular humans seeking to exert influence over others. |
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02/18/2010 09:07:16 PM · #1321 |
I think I'm done here. I have alternating feelings of horror and disgust the more I learn about Christianity here.
I knew virtually nothing about it when I got to DPC three plus years ago.
The more I learn about how God works according to Christians, the more saddened I am.
How can a supposed caring, loving God be so rotten?
You can scoff at my heathen, heretical concept of it all you want, but I'd rather have no life, no God, or the hope that maybe there is a kind and loving God, than have it the Christian way with the petty, vindictive, demanding, spoiled, wrathful God.
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 21:19:07.
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02/18/2010 10:32:20 PM · #1322 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
God chose your parents, your place of birth, the era you were born in, your genetic potential, all of which is completely out of your control and plays a very large role in who you become. |
My parents chose each other and the place of birth. Era and genetic potential were an inescapable consequence of that selection. The same thing would/does happen with NO god.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...The first is qualitative (yes or no), the second is quantitative (how much). |
That doesn't appear to answer (or even address) the question of mutually exclusive free will vs. predestination. 'Choosing to participate' also brings up another problem: the whole capital offense of being human apparently stems from Original Sin— one single act that condemns all of humanity. Since then, there is no "free will" decision involved the offense. You're supposedly born into a state of universal disapproval without any participation whatsoever. So now we've got the flip side— one single act absolves all of humanity from the crime. Ah, but now there's a catch... you have to believe that the act occurred despite suspect details available to comparatively few. There's certainly no requirement that we have to believe the crime occurred to be be condemned, and we're not born into a state of absolution. Again, this only makes sense as an imaginary construct of regular humans seeking to exert influence over others. |
I don't particularly believe in Original Sin in the manner you describe. Certainly the "capital offense of being human" is fulfilled in each and every one of us at some point through our own actions even by our own individual standards (so perhaps we can leave out the babies as innocents after all).
And I'll have to ask you to realize when I'm answering within my faith. Obviously you don't adhere to it, but it doesn't provide anything to the conversation to point that out. If we don't know that by now we really aren't paying attention. If there is no God, genetics are a product of chaotic chance. But if someone asks about the Christian position, have the self-restraint to not answer for the atheist position.
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 22:35:41. |
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02/18/2010 10:54:29 PM · #1323 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God didn't reject humans by default. Humans rejected God by misusing free will. |
Babies reject God at birth using free will. Riiiiiight! |
I didn't say anything about babies actually... I believe (as do most Christians that I know) that babies fall into the same category as all the people that never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus. Yes, creation testifies to the wonders of God, but for most people that's not enough to come to faith. But those who don't really get an honest chance will not be automatically damned. If God condemned babies that would defeat the entire purpose of free will.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
I'm still waiting for the rationalization of free will and predestination.
I really do not see how both can be in play. They are, by their definitions, mutually exclusive. |
You're probably thinking about Double Predestination, which is the idea that God hand selects those that he wants to save. Not many people actually believe this today. Predestination is simply the idea that God is sovereign and therefore has some level of control and influence in our lives so that when we do accept Christ, it isn't solely under our own power. No human can save themselves without help from God, but God doesn't do everything for us. It's a bit like when you are trying to teach your child something. Often times parents want their children to learn how to make their own decisions. The parents will give hints, but ultimately they leave the decision up to the child so that the child can learn what consequences they will face for their choices. I believe that God works the same way in our lives. He is always leaving hints, but he let's us choose.
Originally posted by Louis:
I would caution you not to confuse the ridiculing of the arguments you put forward with belittling you personally. Nobody is interested in belittling anyone. Conflating a position against your argument, however forceful, with a personal attack against you is a serious mistake. |
I hope you realize it was not my intention to belittle you. If you would have said something earlier I would have chosen different words. I often use the phrase, "think of it like this" to lead into an analogy. I say this to many people all the time, and nobody has ever been offended by it. I apologize, but honestly who would have guessed those words would be belittling? Which would you prefer? "Let me put it this way" or "Here's another way to think about is" or "Here's another example"?
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02/18/2010 11:02:10 PM · #1324 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Louis:
I would caution you not to confuse the ridiculing of the arguments you put forward with belittling you personally. Nobody is interested in belittling anyone. Conflating a position against your argument, however forceful, with a personal attack against you is a serious mistake. |
I hope you realize it was not my intention to belittle you. |
What you say here doesn't seem to follow from what you've quoted, so I suppose I'll have to rephrase: you mentioned you have been belittled here. You haven't. You are making the mistake of interpreting attacks against your arguments as attacks against you personally. Nobody has attacked you personally. Your ideas, however, are fair game, even for ridicule, should they prove ridiculous.
Many people make this mistake to a larger or lesser degree, because debate is valued so little in our culture. I merely cautioned you to beware of making that kind of misjudgement about people's intentions.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you would have said something earlier I would have chosen different words...Which would you prefer? |
Half of what I say is tongue-in-cheek. I'm usually the only one with a smirk on my face, as I've come to realize. |
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02/18/2010 11:08:30 PM · #1325 |
Originally posted by Louis:
What you say here doesn't seem to follow from what you've quoted, so I suppose I'll have to rephrase: you mentioned you have been belittled here. You haven't. You are making the mistake of interpreting attacks against your arguments as attacks against you personally. Nobody has attacked you personally. Your ideas, however, are fair game, even for ridicule, should they prove ridiculous.
Many people make this mistake to a larger or lesser degree, because debate is valued so little in our culture. I merely cautioned you to beware of making that kind of misjudgement about people's intentions. |
Well I appreciate your cautioning. There were some comments made in other threads that I thought had crossed the line of being personal, but I'm still trying to get to know people around here so I will try to give people the benefit of the doubt more often in the future.
Originally posted by Louis:
Half of what I say is tongue-in-cheek. I'm usually the only one with a smirk on my face, as I've come to realize. |
Well, in that case I'm glad that you weren't seriously insulted. I really do try to avoid saying something that would be offensive. |
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