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02/17/2010 07:26:07 PM · #1276 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
God can't be corrupted by human desires like politicians are, God is unchanging. |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
The Bible says that we will receive anything we ask in Christ's name that is according to the Father's will. |
You've offered three possibilities: either a given result was already God's will (making prayer pointless) or you lack sufficient faith (making prayer pointless) or it wasn't God's will and he isn't going to change his mind (making prayer pointless). Again, so much for prayer. At least statistics backs you up on this one. |
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02/17/2010 08:11:51 PM · #1277 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Given your acceptance of faith and belief, had you grown up in the home of Gandhi, is there any question that you would be Hindu? |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Ooo! Nice question. Personally I believe in a certain level of predestination, so if God wanted to save me he would have figured out a way if I had grown up in Gandhi's home. |
BUT.....would you be Hindu?
That's the part I don't get.
If you can only acvhieve Salvation through Jesus, the Gandhi doesn't get Salvation, right?
Are you okay with that knowing what kind of person he was?
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02/17/2010 08:18:29 PM · #1278 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Are you okay with that knowing what kind of person he was? |
That question indicates you don't get Christian theology.
ALL have sinned.
The result of sin is death.
I'm afraid Ghandi falls into the "all" category just like you and me.
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02/17/2010 08:20:10 PM · #1279 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Also, while Jews only make up 0.2% of the world population, 22% of the Nobel Peace Prizes have been awarded to Jews since 1901. |
Sounds like that might mean that those ol' Jews are some pretty awesome folks.....8>)
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
At least historically and statistically, the Jews are still being blessed by someone or something... |
Could you perhaps expand on what you mean by this?
(We will, of course, also concede that the Jews have been fairly well *not* blessed at various points historically as well.)
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02/17/2010 08:25:55 PM · #1280 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Are you okay with that knowing what kind of person he was? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That question indicates you don't get Christian theology. |
May I PLEASE spell it out for you plainly???
I don't get Christian theology!
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
ALL have sinned.
The result of sin is death.
I'm afraid Ghandi falls into the "all" category just like you and me. |
And this is why on so many levels I don't get it. Not that I have any issue with you, I think you're a fine person, BUT.......why would God keep you and not Gandhi?
And was Gandhi really a sinner, or just by default as your story tells it?
You hold with his God being a non-God? He was deluded? Sold a bill of goods?
It seems so weird to me that there are so many Gods just for this one species.
Certainly, all religions can't be wrong save one.
ETA: Is it possible that there is only one God and he just has different rules, and ways of making himself/herself known to different cultures at different times?
Message edited by author 2010-02-17 20:31:28.
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02/17/2010 08:51:17 PM · #1281 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I guess I'm not as arrogant and close-minded as you originally thought :) |
Slightly less arrogant, pretty much just as close minded. ;) |
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02/17/2010 09:01:19 PM · #1282 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That question indicates you don't get Christian theology.
ALL have sinned.
The result of sin is death. |
That statement is as ridiculous and unfounded as claiming all are evil (and a cold opinion of newborns, too). Merely saying so doesn't make it true. |
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02/17/2010 09:03:42 PM · #1283 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
There are different interpretations about what will happen to the Jews. They are still a special people though. All of Israels ancient neighbors disappeared centuries ago, but the Jews came out of nowhere and reestablished the nation of Israel (which was prophesied in The Bible). Also, while Jews only make up 0.2% of the world population, 22% of the Nobel Peace Prizes have been awarded to Jews since 1901. At least historically and statistically, the Jews are still being blessed by someone or something... |
Yes, well . . . that surely proves it . . . I mean the man used statistics . . . . sta. tis. tics., I tell you. Clearly, Jews are granted a proportionately large portion of the Nobel Peace Prizes because of God's blessing as the Chosen People . . . People of the Book . . . the most favored and all that Abrahamic la de da. There is simply no way that Jewish achievement can be credibly linked to non-supernatural causes - like an entrenched societal and cultural encouragement and celebration of learning and academic achievement - I mean that's just ludicrous. Also, winning all those Peace Prizes totally makes up for that whole Holocaust nonsense . . . sorry 'bout that, btw . . . quite embarrassing all around, I'd say. And while we are getting everything out in the open, the whole social and political unrest in the Holy Land . . . thing . . . just a misunderstanding I'm sure . . .
[all apologies to Monty Python]
Message edited by author 2010-02-17 21:26:23. |
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02/17/2010 09:16:25 PM · #1284 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That question indicates you don't get Christian theology.
ALL have sinned.
The result of sin is death. |
That statement is as ridiculous and unfounded as claiming all are evil (and a cold opinion of newborns, too). Merely saying so doesn't make it true. |
Sheesh. Both you guys should crack Mere Christianity again (I know you have one Jeb). |
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02/17/2010 09:36:49 PM · #1285 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
... God's wrath is building up against Satan and one day he will unleash it and destroy Satan and all those aligned with him (those who don't follow Christ). |
I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that there are several billion humans who do not follow Christ and yet are not aligned with Satan (even assuming that either of those entities exist). To say that all those who do not subsume themselves to your particular variety of theology are evil and "aligned with Satan" is incomprehensibly ignorant and insulting.
And how can you be aligned with an entity you don't believe exists?
Message edited by author 2010-02-17 21:41:16. |
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02/17/2010 10:03:53 PM · #1286 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Are you okay with that knowing what kind of person he was? |
That question indicates you don't get Christian theology.
ALL have sinned.
The result of sin is death.
I'm afraid Ghandi falls into the "all" category just like you and me. |
I'm afraid I find this disgusting AND insulting.
a. terrible job of diversion (if you can't answer the question, try not to make it so obvious) ;)
b. result of 'sin' is religion, being a purely religious word. The only thing that absolutely ends in death is 'birth'.
c. unlike you, me & Ghandi don't mind not getting into the 'streets paved with gold' club
d. seriously, please answer Jeb's question earnestly. a simple yes or no is a good start. |
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02/17/2010 10:04:52 PM · #1287 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And how can you be aligned with an entity you don't believe exists? |
Now, I think you can figure that out. |
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02/17/2010 10:57:06 PM · #1288 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
how can you be aligned with an entity you don't believe exists? |
With fallacies. |
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02/18/2010 12:55:16 AM · #1289 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
BUT.....would you be Hindu?
That's the part I don't get.
If you can only acvhieve Salvation through Jesus, the Gandhi doesn't get Salvation, right?
Are you okay with that knowing what kind of person he was? |
If I had grown up in Gandhi's house, I probably would have been Hindu, but I also believe I would have converted to Christianity at some point. But seriously, that's crazy speculation and only God knows. Unfortunately for Gandhi, he probably doesn't get Salvation. Again, only God knows. But The Bible is pretty clear about Salvation coming though Christ. Am I okay with that? Honestly, I'm okay with whatever God is okay with.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And this is why on so many levels I don't get it. Not that I have any issue with you, I think you're a fine person, BUT.......why would God keep you and not Gandhi? |
Why would God keep a Christian but not Gandhi? The simple answer is that Gandhi did not glorify God with his life. The reason why we're saved by faith is because faith honors God and gives him all the glory (which he deserves because he is sovereign and holy). When you are a true Christian (not just someone who claims to be one) you're whole life honors God because you have been brought back into a relationship with the God that loves you as a result of Christ's death on the cross. Jesus honored God because he obeyed every command and fulfilled every law. So everyone who believes in Jesus honors God because Jesus honors God. Basically, if there's no faith in God then there's no glory for God. Because Gandhi wasn't living for God's glory he was probably living for the glory of someone/something else (maybe for his own glory or for the glory of a different god). Ultimately, God honors those who honor him by believing in his Son.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
At least historically and statistically, the Jews are still being blessed by someone or something... |
Could you perhaps expand on what you mean by this?
(We will, of course, also concede that the Jews have been fairly well *not* blessed at various points historically as well.) |
True, the Jews have faced some unbelievable hardship through the years. What I mean by the Jews being blessed is simply that they've accomplished amazing things considering their small population. They've been treated badly, but they've also made quite a name for themselves.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that there are several billion humans who do not follow Christ and yet are not aligned with Satan (even assuming that either of those entities exist). To say that all those who do not subsume themselves to your particular variety of theology are evil and "aligned with Satan" is incomprehensibly ignorant and insulting.
And how can you be aligned with an entity you don't believe exists? |
Well, according to The Bible there is no neutral territory. You're either with God or you're against God. Since the whole world is fallen, everyone is under the influence of Satan and corrupted by evil desires. After you believe in Christ, you are forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit, who helps you discern right from wrong so that you can avoid temptations to sin in the future. If you're not actively aligned with Satan, you're still living according to your flesh (sinful human desires) which opposes God. Basically, you either live to please God, or you live to please yourself (or some idol). Whether it's the "pursuit of happiness", money, sex, fun, entertainment, friends, etc... it's all used by Satan to keep you from realizing the truth. Satan will give you what you want because the happier and more satisfied you are with yourself, the weaker your desire is to seek out God. People seek God when they're not satisfied and they think there is something more important than themselves.
Here's a good analogy: Think about the U.S. abolition of slavery.
The President delivers the Emancipation Proclamation, and all slaves are technically and officially free. The slave owners are upset because they want to keep their slaves, so they have a little convention. The wealthiest slave owner has a plan, and he shares it with the other slave owners. "Hey! We can keep the slaves... They're not free until they find out that the President has set them free. Until then, we can keep forcing them to work. We don't need to tell them that they're really free!" The other slave owners like the idea and that's exactly what they do. In fact, the owners do such a good job of lying that anytime one of the slaves hears about the Emancipation Proclamation, they blow it off thinking it's just a deception and they continue to believe their owners! The truth is that the slaves are free, and all they have to do is walk away from their slave owners and their former masters have no authority to force them to stay. But the slave owners are lying to the slaves. The slaves continue to believe the lies even though the truth is right there, they just need to believe it. The slaves are no longer bound to their masters, but they have no idea.
Now, in this analogy the President represents God, the slave owners are Satan's demons, and the wealthy slave owner is Satan himself. The slaves represent all the sinners, and the Emancipation Proclamation represents Jesus death on the cross. The truth is that God has set the sinners free through Jesus atoning sacrifice. The sinners are free, but unless they believe the truth (God's word), they will continue to believe the lies of Satan (like, "God isn't real, just live for yourself and enjoy your life" or "that Bible is just a bunch of made up stories" or "God won't bring you happiness, only friends and money will"). In fact, Satan has people so convinced that many people continue living in slavery to sin and bondage to Satan willingly, because they refuse to believe the truth. |
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02/18/2010 01:45:13 AM · #1290 |
I mean NO disrespect, but a few minor changes & this exactly describes the freedom I've felt after much deliberation about religion. Thankfully, I realized many things were very wrong & then talked with a few other slaves, er, formerly religious persons. Again, no disrespect; this is merely what went through my mind while reading your anecdote:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Here's a good analogy: Think about the U.S. abolition of slavery CHURCH.
The President ATHEIST delivers the Emancipation Proclamation TRUTH, and all slaves are technically and officially free. The slave CHURCH owners are upset because they want to keep their slaves, so they have a little convention. The wealthiest slave CHURCH owner has a plan, and he shares it with the other slave CHURCH owners. "Hey! We can keep the slaves... They're not free until they find out that the President ATHEIST has set them free. Until then, we can keep forcing them to work. We don't need to tell them that they're really free!" The other slave CHURCH owners like the idea and that's exactly what they do. In fact, the owners do such a good job of lying that anytime one of the slaves hears about the Emancipation Proclamation ATHEISM, they blow it off thinking it's just a deception and they continue to believe their owners! The truth is that the slaves are free, and all they have to do is walk away from their slave CHURCH owners and their former masters have no authority to force them to stay. But the slave CHURCH owners are lying to the slaves. The slaves continue to believe the lies even though the truth is right there, they just need to believe it. The slaves are no longer bound to their masters, but they have no idea.
... |
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02/18/2010 02:32:21 AM · #1291 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I mean NO disrespect, but a few minor changes & this exactly describes the freedom I've felt after much deliberation about religion. Thankfully, I realized many things were very wrong & then talked with a few other slaves, er, formerly religious persons. Again, no disrespect; this is merely what went through my mind while reading your anecdote:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Here's a good analogy: Think about the U.S. abolition of slavery CHURCH.
The President ATHEIST delivers the Emancipation Proclamation TRUTH, and all slaves are technically and officially free. The slave CHURCH owners are upset because they want to keep their slaves, so they have a little convention. The wealthiest slave CHURCH owner has a plan, and he shares it with the other slave CHURCH owners. "Hey! We can keep the slaves... They're not free until they find out that the President ATHEIST has set them free. Until then, we can keep forcing them to work. We don't need to tell them that they're really free!" The other slave CHURCH owners like the idea and that's exactly what they do. In fact, the owners do such a good job of lying that anytime one of the slaves hears about the Emancipation Proclamation ATHEISM, they blow it off thinking it's just a deception and they continue to believe their owners! The truth is that the slaves are free, and all they have to do is walk away from their slave CHURCH owners and their former masters have no authority to force them to stay. But the slave CHURCH owners are lying to the slaves. The slaves continue to believe the lies even though the truth is right there, they just need to believe it. The slaves are no longer bound to their masters, but they have no idea.
... |
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Sounds like you had a bad experience with some organized and/or legalistic religion. If you feel like the church was owned by somebody, that probably wasn't the most biblical church. Anytime someone claims to have ownership or authority over a church people get hurt. I'm sorry to hear that you were one of them. I've left churches for similar reasons, but I will not abandon my faith because of human error. In my experience, if you feel enslaved at a church or you feel hurt by someone at a church, that person/church is not acting according to God's will even if they are acting in God's name. I'm sorry to hear about you're bad experience.
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." - Galatians 5:1
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 02:33:16. |
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02/18/2010 06:44:55 AM · #1292 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Why would God keep a Christian but not Gandhi? The simple answer is that Gandhi did not glorify God with his life. The reason why we're saved by faith is because faith honors God and gives him all the glory (which he deserves because he is sovereign and holy). When you are a true Christian (not just someone who claims to be one) you're whole life honors God because you have been brought back into a relationship with the God that loves you as a result of Christ's death on the cross. Jesus honored God because he obeyed every command and fulfilled every law. So everyone who believes in Jesus honors God because Jesus honors God. Basically, if there's no faith in God then there's no glory for God. Because Gandhi wasn't living for God's glory he was probably living for the glory of someone/something else (maybe for his own glory or for the glory of a different god). Ultimately, God honors those who honor him by believing in his Son. |
This is pretty much why I'll never be a Christian. I reject a God that would cast out someone like Gandhi because he spent his life being, and doing, good for mankind. It just seems so facile, so egotistical, so self-centered, so.......HUMAN to be like this being that you describe. I cannot believe for one second that God's purpose for the human race is to glorify him. It's just too irrational to me. Why would the most powerful and omniscient being in the unioverse be so shallow and pedantic?
If that's what it takes to achieve salvation, I guess I'm not going to get it. I'd rather spend my life just trying to be a decent man, and trying to express my gratitude for the gift that my life has been, by doing a good thing here and there in the hopes that some of the grace I've been shown gets passed on. Surely any good and decent God would rather I try to help my less fortunate brethren than to be on my knees telling him he's "The One".
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02/18/2010 10:05:54 AM · #1293 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Sounds like you had a bad experience ... |
You mean BESIDES the years of indoctrinated prejudices & constant reminders that 'we are all sinners'? No single event was memorably 'bad', I just finally realized how judgmental religion is (by design). If you continually tell someone that they are not good enough, they will begin to believe it, then their sense of self-worth begins to suffer. I refuse to do that to my wife & children.
The entire point of religion is to bring you 'into the flock'. Most of the people involved probably mean well, but I cannot abide the ever constant pointing of fingers & reassurances that 'ours is the only way'. Really? Then which self-referential book am I supposed to follow? Ugh - completely ludicrous.
Circular logic isn't very logical, is it?
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 10:09:29. |
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02/18/2010 12:59:51 PM · #1294 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Personally I believe in a certain level of predestination, . . . |
There is no way that predestination and free will can co-exist. |
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02/18/2010 01:03:55 PM · #1295 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This is pretty much why I'll never be a Christian. I reject a God that would cast out someone like Gandhi because he spent his life being, and doing, good for mankind. It just seems so facile, so egotistical, so self-centered, so.......HUMAN to be like this being that you describe. I cannot believe for one second that God's purpose for the human race is to glorify him. It's just too irrational to me. Why would the most powerful and omniscient being in the unioverse be so shallow and pedantic?
If that's what it takes to achieve salvation, I guess I'm not going to get it. I'd rather spend my life just trying to be a decent man, and trying to express my gratitude for the gift that my life has been, by doing a good thing here and there in the hopes that some of the grace I've been shown gets passed on. Surely any good and decent God would rather I try to help my less fortunate brethren than to be on my knees telling him he's "The One". |
I think you have a warped view of Sin, Grace, Justification, etc... God didn't cast out Gandhi. Gandhi cast himself out by not accepting the truth. God doesn't reject humans, humans reject God. The overarching theme of the entire Bible is God's plan to redeem humanity. It seems to me that you're thinking all humans should deserve Salvation and God rejects the ones he doesn't like. The correct way of thinking is that all humans deserve condemnation and God's plan is that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved. Gandhi did some great things, but ultimately it's not what we do that saves us, it's what Christ did. We cannot coerce God into giving us grace by doing good things. He's put the grace on the platter and set the table for us and all we have to do is acknowledge that Christ did everything that we're incapable of doing.
It also seems like you have a warped view of worship (giving God the glory). Worshiping God and giving him glory is not some form of mechanical fealty. What God desires is our affection and our trust, glory is just what he deserves because of who He is. We worship God because he is holy, loving, and good, not because we're afraid he'll destroy us if we don't. Holding on to some hope that God will reward you for doing good things even if you never believed in him is a form of pride and works-righteousness (grace by works). We need realize that we are completely and utterly incapable of saving ourselves by what we do and that we are only saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Even the very faith that we put in Christ is a gift from God, otherwise we would be inclined to say, "I saved myself because I decided to believe" which implies that we are saved because of our own decision. God poured out his love on humanity when he sent his own Son to pour out his life for humanity. That is what grace is.
Good deeds don't matter to God unless there is faith driving the good deeds. Works without faith are meaningless to God. Think of it like this: Let's say you're single and you meet this amazing woman that you absolutely adore. You just can't get over her and she has also shown some interest in you. She's all you think about and all you want is her affection. Now, the woman's husband has passed away and she's left with two young children. You have a choice to make... Are you going to try and work really hard to "win" her love by being really nice to her kids so that she thinks you genuinely care about them. Or, are you going to actually cultivate a relationship with the kids and love them just as much as you love the woman? Which one do you think means the most to the woman? The woman might appreciate if you do nice things to her kids without actually caring, but that's not going to make her have the hots for you. The woman wants to see that you truly love her kids, and then she will being to trust you. It's not what you do that she cares about, and she might even be disgusted if she finds out you're just using her kids to get to her. Would you blame the woman if she found this out and then never spoke to you again? The woman wants to know that your love is real and then she will appreciate how you treat her kids even more. This is how it is with God. If we do good things just to get on God's good side, he's just as right to cast you out as the woman is. God wants your genuine affection, not your deeds. Sure, you might say, "well I genuinely love people and do good deeds because it's the right thing to do" and I commend you for that. But think back to the analogy... If you really love the kids and treat them nicely just because it's right and you have pity on them after losing their father, that's excellent! However, if you really love the kids but don't really care much about the woman, then she might appreciate your kindness but you won't have a lasting place in her life. God might appreciate your good deeds, but you won't have a place in his kingdom unless you genuinely love Him.
You can actually flip the analogy around and think of God as the guy and humanity as the woman to understand what Christ did for us. God loves us so much that did the ultimate "good deed" out of pure grace. How do you think the guy would feel if he was truly loving and gracious toward the children, but then the woman rejected him anyway? That guy would say, "to heck with you!" God does the same when we reject him. |
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02/18/2010 01:17:07 PM · #1296 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Think of it like this: |
Okay. After occurrance number 1,761, I have to say something.
Please. Please stop using this exhortation. I find it belittling. |
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02/18/2010 02:02:55 PM · #1297 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I think you have a warped view of Sin, Grace, Justification, etc. . . . It seems to me that you're thinking all humans should deserve Salvation and God rejects the ones he doesn't like. The correct way of thinking is that all humans deserve condemnation and God's plan is that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved. |
It is your theology that is warped, not our view of it. We don't misunderstand your belief system, we categorically reject it.
The Christian view that all humans deserve condemnation is perverse, infantile and dangerous. |
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02/18/2010 02:37:17 PM · #1298 |
Rather sad that a benevolant God would condemn all of those that do not believe in Christ to eternal damnation regardless of the reasons.
Ray |
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02/18/2010 02:48:43 PM · #1299 |
| So if you are unlucky enough to live where there isn't internet in your language or a missionary in your village, or you lived in a time before the internet and no one ever told you the story of Jesus Christ, you are doomed to a life in hell, even though you never knew about it? |
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02/18/2010 02:48:46 PM · #1300 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I think you have a warped view of Sin, Grace, Justification, etc... God doesn't reject humans, humans reject God. |
If God didn't reject humans by default, you wouldn't have to win back good standing from the moment of birth. Declaring everyone, including newborns, to be mortal sinners and condemning them to eternal torture for insufficient adoration can only be the imagination of petty humans. That such adoration is only possible if you believe the disputed, vague and fairly recent claims of anonymous authors in lost original documents written from the oral traditions of one region of the world only compounds the skepticism. God should be tickled pink and turning cartwheels that ANYBODY buys this. |
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