So DPC is my only way to ask Canada a question...

04/10/2008 06:37:18 AM · #201

I briefly went to Google to see how that's working out. And tried to stay reasonably current:

//www.civitas.org.uk/blog/2008/03/competition_the_solution_to_th.html

//www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/whistleblower-surgeon-breaks-cover-over-nhs-beds-crisis-459454.html

//www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/3692

Not sure I'm convinced. But keep trying if you wish.

Message edited by frisca - making links clickable..

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/10/2008 09:29:08 AM · #202

FYI - I am not antagonistic to any of you people. I just have a FUNDAMENTAL dislike for this concept, and basically ANYTHING having to do with socialism. The fundamentals have to do with responsibility.

Somebody earlier invoked Jesus, so I feel I have at least a little bit of right to follow that thought. Jesus wanted us to take care of the poor and those in need. The good Samaritan was a perfect example. He did NOT go to the government to get help, but helped the traveler from HIS OWN pocket, and of HIS OWN accord, and with HIS OWN effort. Paul instructed us to look after the "fatherless and widows in their affliction", but NEVER told us to get government help.

When you demand that the society as a whole take care of the unfortunate, you are giving over YOUR individual responsibility to help. You and I should be helping every individual through private donations, foundations, one-on-one bill-paying, whatever drives you, whatever it takes. Instead, you feel you've done your part because you've paid your taxes, and let some official execute, however horribly, your responsibility. No, you can't do it alone, I know, but combined VOLUNTARY efforts do wonders. Danny Thomas, Jerry Lewis, etc., are wonderful examples. But forcing by taxations the cooperation of the entire society doesn't seem to be working all that well...and least from what I can see by looking around the corners of all the lefty propaganda that's out there.

Same reason I really dislike public education. "How's THAT working out" "NOT TOO GOOD!"
Your children should be YOUR responsibility, which should not be discharged by paying taxes.

Rant on all you want about how wonderful your system is, how evil and brutal are conservatives who stand in the way of the public compassion. I'll continue to do what I do...which, BTW, you have NO inkling of what that could be, and it will stay that way.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/10/2008 09:39:16 AM · #203

Originally posted by farfel53:

Same reason I really dislike public education. "How's THAT working out" "NOT TOO GOOD!"

If the public education system was as selective as the private schooling system is, I would wager that the ensuing results would be comparable.

Originally posted by farfel53:

I'll continue to do what I do...which, BTW, you have NO inkling of what that could be, and it will stay that way.

I personally couldn't care less of what it is you do. What I would hope is that you are as compassionate and altruistic as you would have us believe.

Ray

04/10/2008 09:45:14 AM · #204

Originally posted by farfel53:

When you demand that the society as a whole take care of the unfortunate, you are giving over YOUR individual responsibility to help. You and I should be helping every individual through private donations, foundations, one-on-one bill-paying, whatever drives you, whatever it takes. Instead, you feel you've done your part because you've paid your taxes, and let some official execute, however horribly, your responsibility. No, you can't do it alone, I know, but combined VOLUNTARY efforts do wonders. Danny Thomas, Jerry Lewis, etc., are wonderful examples. But forcing by taxations the cooperation of the entire society doesn't seem to be working all that well...and least from what I can see by looking around the corners of all the lefty propaganda that's out there.

I already help through private means. That's not the issue. The issue is the responsibility we have as a individuals to ourselves as a society and paying for the benefits of living in that society through taxation. If that were voluntary, you and I might pay, but others certainly would not so altruistic and would simply keep all of their money for themselves. In essence they would be getting all of the benefits that allow their lifestyle, no matter how extravagant, without paying for any of it.

Voluntary efforts are great, but I highly doubt that Americans, as a whole, are altruistic enough to replace public programs. They'll want to buy that new Hummer, McMansion or other shiny bauble.

If you feel you do not reap any benefits from living in our society, you are certainly free to go find a society where the values are more in line with your values.

04/10/2008 09:48:43 AM · #205

Originally posted by farfel53:

You feel that you have no responsibility to the society in which you live because others don't live up to your standards?

04/10/2008 10:10:56 AM · #206

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Same reason I really dislike public education. "How's THAT working out" "NOT TOO GOOD!"

If the public education system was as selective as the private schooling system is, I would wager that the ensuing results would be comparable.

Originally posted by farfel53:
I'll continue to do what I do...which, BTW, you have NO inkling of what that could be, and it will stay that way.

I personally couldn't care less of what it is you do. What I would hope is that you are as compassionate and altruistic as you would have us believe.

Ray

Thanks, Ray. I appreciate that you couldn't care less. That's about what I expect.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/10/2008 10:14:00 AM · #207

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by farfel53:
FYI - I am not antagonistic to any of you people. I just have a FUNDAMENTAL dislike for this concept, and basically ANYTHING having to do with socialism. The fundamentals have to do with responsibility.

You feel that you have no responsibility to the society in which you live because others don't live up to your standards?

Not sure how that follows, but whatever. I can see you will not be understanding or considering any of my arguments, nor I yours, so I will probably bow out of this discussion, and just continue to use my vote.

Peace...really.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/10/2008 11:47:19 AM · #208

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Same reason I really dislike public education. "How's THAT working out" "NOT TOO GOOD!"

If the public education system was as selective as the private schooling system is, I would wager that the ensuing results would be comparable.

Originally posted by farfel53:
I'll continue to do what I do...which, BTW, you have NO inkling of what that could be, and it will stay that way.

I personally couldn't care less of what it is you do. What I would hope is that you are as compassionate and altruistic as you would have us believe.

Ray

Thanks, Ray. I appreciate that you couldn't care less. That's about what I expect.

Considering that you told all of us to essentially mind our own business, I am glad that you can appreciate my comments...you truly are a very astute person.

Ray

04/10/2008 12:27:34 PM · #209

Ray - that comment was a reference back to statements made earlier that my attitude was brutal and apalling. My defence was that none of you knows my heart, or level of generosity, and this subsequent statement merely reflected more of the same sentiment. It was not meant to tell you or anybody to "mind your own business", and I did not mean to offend you, any of you, in that way.

Again...peace...really.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/10/2008 12:45:49 PM · #210

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by farfel53:
FYI - I am not antagonistic to any of you people. I just have a FUNDAMENTAL dislike for this concept, and basically ANYTHING having to do with socialism. The fundamentals have to do with responsibility.

You feel that you have no responsibility to the society in which you live because others don't live up to your standards?

Not sure how that follows, but whatever. I can see you will not be understanding or considering any of my arguments, nor I yours, so I will probably bow out of this discussion, and just continue to use my vote.

Peace...really.

I just believe that an individual has a responsibility to society in exchange for the benefits that society provides. The taxes you pay are part of that responsibility. You seem to object to that notion.

Louis

Nikon D800

04/10/2008 03:22:46 PM · #211

Originally posted by farfel53:

Ray - that comment was a reference back to statements made earlier that my attitude was brutal and apalling.

And that came about largely because of this:

Originally posted by farfel53:

And BTW - there are no guarantees in this life, no matter what the "government" types are trying to sell. No promise that you won't go bankrupt for any number of reasons, no promise that you won't have pain and suffering on the way toward final rest. No promise that big brother will do anything but promise. Anybody who believes all that deserves the inevitable disappointment. Sorry. "This ain't no NeverNeverLand"

Without qualification, that seemed to infer that because the state is nothing but a monopoly of lies, people didn't deserve help from it, because "that's life", so "deal with it." Taken alone, that indeed is an appalling attitude, no matter how generous you are personally.

Nobody has adequately addressed the obvious follow-up to such an attitude. What's the state for, if not to provide essential services, specifically a service as essential as basic health care?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/10/2008 03:40:07 PM · #212

Originally posted by Louis:

Nobody has adequately addressed the obvious follow-up to such an attitude. What's the state for, if not to provide essential services, specifically a service as essential as basic health care?

Blowing the ever-lovin' crap out of other countries? Beer drinkin' and Hell raisin' on the global geopolitical stage?

Oh, I dunno...

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/10/2008 04:09:38 PM · #213

Originally posted by Louis:

What's the state for, if not to provide essential services, specifically a service as essential as basic health care?

In the US, it's stated in the preamble to the Constitution, which determined how and why the government should be constituted.

Originally posted by Constitution of the United States of America:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Notice it speaks only of the people and their progeny -- it does not mention corporations.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/10/2008 04:19:25 PM · #214

"Promote the general Welfare." I would think that would imply the state wants its citizens to be doing well, and what better way to ensure that than by adequately addressing each individual's health? Too obvious I guess.