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03/28/2008 11:50:24 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
If the military health care system is inidicative of what Universal Health Care would look like in the US, I'd be vehemently opposed to it. Thoughts? |
I agree. I shudder at the thought of how our local VA hospital does things. (That's Veteran's Administration, no Virginia, btw).
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03/28/2008 11:54:09 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
If the military health care system is inidicative of what Universal Health Care would look like in the US, I'd be vehemently opposed to it. Thoughts? |
I agree. I shudder at the thought of how our local VA hospital does things. (That's Veteran's Administration, no Virginia, btw). |
LOL. Yep, I got some stories myself.
Great posts by roba and ellamay - nothing better than direct experience comparisons. I heard Canadians also get free beer. If that's true, then I'm sneaking across the border tonight, eh. |
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03/29/2008 12:01:08 AM · #78 |
| You can have mine, Art. eh? |
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03/29/2008 12:05:22 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by karmat:
You can have mine, Art. eh? |
Practicing....... eh? |
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03/29/2008 12:38:46 AM · #80 |
We are in the US. My son has CP and sees alot of doctors regularly. We have gone for one appointment at 8am and left after 5pm numerous times. Appointments are set months ahead, good luck getting in sooner. We had a bill one time for $96,000(please pay within 10 days blah blah blah). His bills are mostly payed for now but the paper work is unbelievable. The level of care depends more on the doctors competence than anything else.(they almost killed him last year)
I would like to hear from some Canadians with disabled kids. |
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03/29/2008 01:29:49 AM · #81 |
Thought I would add my two cetns worth. This thread started with the comparison of the Canadian system and the proposed health care system changes of our two democratic presidential candidates. I should point out that this is comparing apples and oranges.
Neither of the proposed systems is a single payer universal health care system. They both still rely on the current network of insurance companies, government systems and private and public hospitals. The only additions are various forms of mandated coverage and participation, government subsidies and some changes on negotiating rights with drug companies to bring down cost. Although a step in the right direction it will not mimic, or even look like, the system Canada has (unfortunately).
Just trying to be sure we are on the same page as to what we are talking about.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 01:34:40. |
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03/29/2008 03:29:34 AM · #82 |
| Great points, JB. Thanks for making that distinction. Like I said, I am watching what is turning out to be a very informative discussion on the topic. |
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03/29/2008 10:43:05 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I'm a relatively new Canadian, but the health care system here is one of the things I truly love about Canada. What I like most is that I do not have to worry about my family and I being taken care of, and I do not have to make silly decisions like, should I go to the doctor for this or not? Would it be better to wait for next year, so I have to pay only one deductible instead of paying deductible on two years? Is it bad enough to go see a doctor? Those are the kinds of decisions we had to make in the USA, and we had pretty decent health care coverage. I can hardly imagine what it's like for people without coverage!
As for bureaucracy and paperwork, there's been a lot less for me as the consumer, hardly any. I show my card, and that's that, both in Ontario and in British Columbia. I don't have to fill out endless forms for the doctor's offices, the insurance company, the hospital, whatever. I don't know if there is less paperwork overall in the USA, but judging by the size of office staff in doctor's offices, I would say that paperwork is less in Canada. |
Just a short reply to state that free access can also lead to long wait times to see the doc... As you state, "is it bad enough to go see a doctor?", Sadly this has lead some patients to call in AS SOON as they get ANY symptom. It is not rare to get a patient in the ER that has been having a sore throat fo 2 hours, or "feeling weak" since this morning...
No Art, no free beer.
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03/29/2008 12:00:42 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by lifternessjt:
...Just a short reply to state that free access can also lead to long wait times to see the doc... As you state, "is it bad enough to go see a doctor?", Sadly this has lead some patients to call in AS SOON as they get ANY symptom. It is not rare to get a patient in the ER that has been having a sore throat fo 2 hours, or "feeling weak" since this morning... |
LOL, I do see this once in a while. Last time I was on night shift, this 20 year old guy comes in BY AMBULANCE (!!!) because he woke up at 3 a.m. with a sore throat!
To counter balance this I have also seen patients who have been having chest pains for the whole morning before deciding they have to come to the ER with their heart attack...I'm sure if they had to think about having to spend $10,000 within the next week for the CCU care they might have waited longer.
Like I said before we don't have a perfect system, but at least everyone is covered and doesn't have to worry about the astronomical bills.
To  Niten: Specialized care for disabled kids is all covered by our system, parents have enough to worry about already.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 12:01:25.
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03/29/2008 12:34:10 PM · #85 |
There was a story in the Star a couple of years ago about abuses of the 911 system. An ambulance driver related how he was called to a house and made his way there with lights and siren going full tilt as usual, to find a young woman waiting for them at the bottom of her driveway with her coat on and a suitcase packed. Seemed she had a scheduled stay at the hospital that was to begin that day, and needed some way to get to hospital, and what better way than by ambulance?
In my municipality, ambulances are not free if your condition is not life threatening. If an ambulance is called, and your condition isn't critical, you get a bill for about eighty bucks. |
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03/29/2008 03:23:58 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Louis:
In my municipality, ambulances are not free if your condition is not life threatening. If an ambulance is called, and your condition isn't critical, you get a bill for about eighty bucks. |
You're lucky. My ride to the hospital for acute gall-bladder attack cost me six hundred bucks. Since I was able to walk to the ambulance they asked me if I really needed to go. hehhehehe I'd been in a fetal position with 11 out of a range of 1 to 10 pain for 9 hours. That visit to be imaged, diagnosed, and put out on the street was billed at six thousand dollars. I talked them down to thirty-seven hundred dollars because I paid cash. The following hospital stay to remove almost burst gall bladder was billed at about twenty-seven thousand dollars. This I paid nineteen thousand because I paid cash. So my chances for a D3, new Nikkor 600mm F4 with VR went out the window with my gall-bladder.
Because of this and the 1.5 trillion US dollars wasted in Iraq I'm voting a straight democratic ticket this year. And the rest of my life. I'm ready for state delivered healthcare to all comers in the US.
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03/29/2008 03:30:59 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
.....about twenty-seven thousand dollars. This I paid nineteen thousand because I paid cash...... |
!!! I would've done the operation on myself with a butter knife !!! :-O
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03/29/2008 04:38:03 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
Mild Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with photography or DPC, I just have no other way to talk to Canadians.
An open question for those who live in Canada:
What are your thoughts on your current health care system?
I've been doing a little research into how it works and what not, and have started to form my own opinion (which I'm not going to talk about as not to taint the question). There are several US President Candidates who have plans to nationalize health care and from I can gather they are trying to reproduce Canada's system.
-CW
p.s. - please don't hijack this thread and make it a political debate. |
Chris,
The Canadian health care systems work. A similar solution is needed in the USA too, and for that matter everywhere else. No one should go without proper care or be saddled with years of debt to fund it. I am a conservative by nature, but this strategy just makes sense even from a capitalism perspective as it reduces the overall cost of care for everyone.
Cheers,
Michael |
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03/29/2008 05:39:38 PM · #89 |
I asked a couple of non-dpc Canadian friends about this. Here are their responses (names changed simply for privacy and because i didn't ask permission to post this)
Originally posted by friend 1:
Actually, maybe I'm in the minority but I'm very happy with our health care up here. For so many years while my husband was so ill, we never had a problem EVER!! The surgeons and doctors were fantastic always.
We DO have a shortage of doctors though. I've never experienced this but (my daughter) has and must go to the hospital where a Walk In Clinic is situated to have a doctor look at her.
We've been with the same doctor here since about 1986 (the year she graduated from University) but one of the doctors in our clinic has just recently been diagnosed with alzheimers and at first the rest of the doctors in our clinic shared her patients but it was far too much so these folks now don't have a doctor and must go to the Walk In Clinic.
I don't know anything about the American system but I'm very happy with ours.
As a senior now, I don't have any health insurance that I had when (husband) was alive which covered prescriptions, etc. but I only pay the first $100.00 per year for prescriptions and the rest I pay the drug store service charge which is probably about $5.00 per item.
Dialysis is covered completely and when we went to the USA to Lynchburg for (husband) to get his certificate in 2000, we had to pay $375.00 per treatment in Lynchburg and $360.00 per treatment in Danville, VA and if you go to California, it's almost $600.00 per treatment down near Los Angeles.
We got $225.00 per treatment back from the Ontario Health Insurance when we returned to Canada. We went to a Dialysis Camp up at Dorset, Ontario and the Kidney Foundation paid $275.00 per week for our cottage and we paid $250.00 per week and the rest was completely covered for all dialysis patients.
All of (husbands)'s medications were completely covered and some of the needles I had to give him were $475.00 PER NEEDLE and he had three per week.
Once we figured his medications were a couple of thousand and nearly 3 thousand per month. All covered.
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and another (which, ironically, is a sister to the first one)
Originally posted by sister to the quoter above:
Well my experience is so much different from (the one above)'s. We have no doctor and there is very little hope on the horizon for one any time soon. the Doctor we had threw out half his practise us included. To go to a walk in clinic there is at least a 3 hour wait. in the hospital it is even worse we look at a 4 - 5 hour wait. Our old family doctor had misdiagnosed many patients and those are now dying of heart/cancer disease. We have to pay for our drugs, and unless we have private insurance that costs. there is no recourse for us, in getting a doctor, and we both have health issues that need monitoring. On our trips USA side of the border, we have had nothing but good treatment. fast and comprehensive. Our cousin in LA has the same experience with the USA medical as us. We here in Ontario many people have to wait upwards to 6 months for surgery, getting a consultation from a specialist is equally as bad. Give me your system any day even though we would have to pay for private insurance. |
I thought it was interesting to hear different perspectives. When you take the Democrat/Republican bull/rhetoric out of everything, and deal with the actual issues, I think it is easier to deal with *things.*
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 17:42:11. |
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03/29/2008 11:35:52 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I asked a couple of non-dpc Canadian friends about this. Here are their responses |
No system is perfect, but what I find most revealing is the anecdotal evidence in this thread (and in everyday life) that the Canadian system works and that everyone wants to keep it. There are very few horror stories. Your friend's sounds like it would make the news here.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 23:36:19. |
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03/30/2008 10:03:58 AM · #91 |
When comparing the tax cost, don't just compare our income tax level to the canadian level. Remember to add in the 15% for medicare/social security - employers pay half of that, but that just means your paycheck is smaller, because they figure that into their operating costs as well.
Does Canada have any additional federal taxes (other than the provicial, which would be comparable to our state taxes), or is everything taken out in one lump sum?
We pay around $3K for insurance every year. In the last 3 months, i've had about $2500 in additional costs (and that's not counting the $100 or so a month that i spend on prescriptions), AFTER our insurance paid their bit. So, i think we'd be better off under a socialized plan. And we're not poor, or even lower middle class income-wise, right now. We've been lucky enough to be able to afford good insurance for the last 12 years or so. But there was a time when i stressed over a kid getting sick or injured...
Message edited by author 2008-03-30 10:04:52. |
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03/30/2008 10:29:40 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by shamrock:
Does Canada have any additional federal taxes (other than the provicial, which would be comparable to our state taxes), or is everything taken out in one lump sum? |
One lump sum. The only other tax is sales tax, both federal and provincial. Federal GST is 5% on goods and services (not food), provincial (Ontario) is 8% on everything retail (not food or books). Some provinces have higher or lower sales tax and at least one has none. Low income earners get GST rebated. |
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03/31/2008 07:17:24 AM · #93 |
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03/31/2008 10:46:24 AM · #94 |
See, it's things like this that i don't understand. It seems like the majority is against socialized medicine, but we already have it in the form of Medicare and the individual state welfare medical programs. The only thing different about our current system is that instead of everyone paying and everyone reaping the benefit, those that can afford private insurance pay twice - once for their private policies, and a second time for everyone else in the form of welfare from taxes. Why not just move to a straight social plan?
The HMOs put so many restrictions on doctors now that i can't believe they or their patietns would fare any worse under a properly managed government run plan. |
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03/31/2008 10:56:16 AM · #95 |
| I've heard people complain about the Canadian health care system, but I can tell you, its a hell of a comfort to know that if god forbid, my family or I fall ill, we won't be forced into bankrupcy. If you need help here, you get it, free. |
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03/31/2008 11:02:46 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
to say you dont pay for medicine seems a little off to me, you do pay, you just dont the doctor, you pay the government to pay the doctor (right?) thats why im asking about taxes...
this may sound a little harsh, and dont confuse this as being cold hearted, this is just looking at straight numbers. (i dont think anyone is below health care nor do i think anyonee should ever be denied health care based on something like money) but it seems to me that alot are paying for a few. in the troubled times of our current economy (which is a different can of beans) that the extra burden of increased taxes would add even more strain to already finicially unstable familes.
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. there are many hospitals throughout the country that are souly for people who arent covered by insurence (espcially for children).
I am no expert but I think in the US, the 'poor' do get some hospital care/clinic care, but it is often seen to be not as good. Now I am not sure if that is just a perception or reality. Where as in canada if you are on welfare or a high govt. official you get the same care (supposedly).
so seems that in the US you pay (or your insurence company pays) if you can, but if you cant either a charity or the gorvernment steps in and helps out. It seems to me that if you are faced with a medical issue that you get the help you need, regardless of any other factor (theres always a way to pay for something, you just have to find out how) and from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
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03/31/2008 01:20:15 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. there are many hospitals throughout the country that are souly for people who arent covered by insurence (espcially for children).
I am no expert but I think in the US, the 'poor' do get some hospital care/clinic care, but it is often seen to be not as good. Now I am not sure if that is just a perception or reality. Where as in canada if you are on welfare or a high govt. official you get the same care (supposedly).
so seems that in the US you pay (or your insurence company pays) if you can, but if you cant either a charity or the gorvernment steps in and helps out. It seems to me that if you are faced with a medical issue that you get the help you need, regardless of any other factor (theres always a way to pay for something, you just have to find out how) and from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
I think you need to do some research.
People are indeed denied health care in the US based on insurance status. Unfortunately, it happens every day and people do indeed suffer and die because of it.
If you can get care as an uninsured person, it's not uncommon for the resulting bills to result in bankruptcy, inability to pay other bills, forcing the sale of the family home, emptying of retirement accounts etc.
And as far as a person on their own purchasing private insurance, well, they'll be able to find coverage, albeit at a high premium or high deductible as long as they are quite healthy now. Any pre-existing conditions or questionable health history will likely result in denial of coverage or a premium that would make Bill Gates cringe. In that case, you're on your own.
The US system is, for many people, totally broken. |
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03/31/2008 01:42:31 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I think you need to do some research.
People are indeed denied health care in the US based on insurance status. Unfortunately, it happens every day and people do indeed suffer and die because of it.
If you can get care as an uninsured person, it's not uncommon for the resulting bills to result in bankruptcy, inability to pay other bills, forcing the sale of the family home, emptying of retirement accounts etc.
And as far as a person on their own purchasing private insurance, well, they'll be able to find coverage, albeit at a high premium or high deductible as long as they are quite healthy now. Any pre-existing conditions or questionable health history will likely result in denial of coverage or a premium that would make Bill Gates cringe. In that case, you're on your own.
The US system is, for many people, totally broken. |
I think you need to share some research. Can you cite specific examples of this disaster, or are you merely repeating the propaganda you've heard? No, it's not perfect, but no, not many die because of the shortcomings. You speak like we're falling dead in the waiting rooms, crying for help. What a crock.
And BTW - there are no guarantees in this life, no matter what the "government" types are trying to sell. No promise that you won't go bankrupt for any number of reasons, no promise that you won't have pain and suffering on the way toward final rest. No promise that big brother will do anything but promise. Anybody who believes all that deserves the inevitable disappointment. Sorry. "This ain't no NeverNeverLand"
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03/31/2008 01:52:58 PM · #99 |
I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight. Teachers are treated and paid very poorly - will we do the same to doctors and nurses?
Then again, I have the "top" insurance plan from my company and still owe thousands of dollars for the various fairly low level procedures that I've had done over the years.
I have dental insurance but every dentist within 100 miles of me charges more than the insurance companies will pay so I end up paying the difference. It all adds up fast and I HAVE insurance!
So I don't know what the solution is - both systems could have major problems and in the US we have nothing to serve as an example that we could do it right, we just have examples of how we'd do it wrong.
One other thing, I've been strongly considering going back to school for a career change into a medical field. It's going to be quite a bit of work though and very expensive. Universal Health Care is making me do a double take though because I'm afraid I won't be able to make as much money if it does go into effect. It's not that I'm greedy or that I want to profit off of other's injury - but I don't want to put all the effort to learn a highly specialized field if I'm just going to be struggling to make ends meet. |
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03/31/2008 01:56:26 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I think you need to do some research.
People are indeed denied health care in the US based on insurance status. Unfortunately, it happens every day and people do indeed suffer and die because of it.
If you can get care as an uninsured person, it's not uncommon for the resulting bills to result in bankruptcy, inability to pay other bills, forcing the sale of the family home, emptying of retirement accounts etc.
And as far as a person on their own purchasing private insurance, well, they'll be able to find coverage, albeit at a high premium or high deductible as long as they are quite healthy now. Any pre-existing conditions or questionable health history will likely result in denial of coverage or a premium that would make Bill Gates cringe. In that case, you're on your own.
The US system is, for many people, totally broken. |
I think you need to share some research. Can you cite specific examples of this disaster, or are you merely repeating the propaganda you've heard? No, it's not perfect, but no, not many die because of the shortcomings. You speak like we're falling dead in the waiting rooms, crying for help. What a crock.
And BTW - there are no guarantees in this life, no matter what the "government" types are trying to sell. No promise that you won't go bankrupt for any number of reasons, no promise that you won't have pain and suffering on the way toward final rest. No promise that big brother will do anything but promise. Anybody who believes all that deserves the inevitable disappointment. Sorry. "This ain't no NeverNeverLand" |
Your apparent attitude that those who go bankrupt trying to care for themselves or their critically ill children should just shut-up and take it because their are no guarantees in life seems brutal to me. I'd be interested in what you think a government is for, if not to provide essential services. |
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