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02/18/2008 12:55:02 PM · #26 |
If I was one to be gambling, I would think that the real issue is not the need to remove comments so much as a problem with people who regularly assist in helping to achieve a vision, suddenly deciding that it's not worth the time an effort to help make these photos if they are going to get 'stripped-down' by people who don't appreciate the medium you have chosen Leroy.
In fact, a concerted effort to constantly belittle regular models, could even have the effect of running a photographer out of the neighborhood so to say, just by sabotaging his subject matter's egos and forcing him to consider if it is worth it to continue to post in this community.
I do not agree with that kind of abuse, just positing that abolishment can come in many forms. |
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02/18/2008 12:58:27 PM · #27 |
I am going to have to side with Leroy on this one. I think the treatment here is somewhat unfair. We all know Leroy's tastes in photos and while I certainly don't share them, I know he has the right. I have seen SC clamp down on Leroy so tight he needs to post warnings inside warnings inside warnings. OTOH, I have no idea now why, with that PC frame of mind, we are tolerating comments (be them blunt or rude or whatever) that cut down the model and not the photo. I actually applaud Leroy for shooting women that have a normal body. I am sure he tells them they are on DPC and I'm sure they check their photos out and the comments. I am finally quite sure that it must be hurtful to see comments cutting you down because you aren't a whispy waif.
The bottom line is either let up on Leroy and his posts, or give him a hand when he's actually trying to protect one of his models. I can read between the lines to see there is friction between him and SC (probably between him and a select few SC members), but I expect professionalism and for SC to be able to put this behind them.
Just my 0.02 |
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02/18/2008 12:59:47 PM · #28 |
It's remarkable to me that SC is going to force you to take your medicine. That they are the ones that decide whether a comment left on your photo is offensive enough in your world to live or die. You would think they had better things to do than police comments - and let us govern our own worlds.
It's unbelievable.
Let's say I left Leroy a comment. He hates what I said and deletes it. How does that hurt me? I know he read it, he had to in order to delete it.
How does the fact that Leroy doesn't want to have that read by other passersby injure this site in anyway?
And what could possibly qualify the SC to determine whether a comment in hurtful to a model or not. Will they EVER have to work the model again, try to explain why the comment was made.
It's such an easy and elegant solution to just delete the message when Leroy sees it, then the model may never see it, and he never has to have that awkward conversation.
But nope, the SC knows far better than Leroy what would offend his model, would offend him. And by damn he's going to swallow that and LIKE it - or he can go elsewhere.
That's customer service at it's finest. I've never been prouder to be a member.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:00:24. |
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02/18/2008 01:00:07 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I enjoy this site and appreciate the hard work put into it, and I understand the nature of volunteerism, but sometimes I feel treated as though I'm in kindergarten. |
Do you ever feel like you act as though you are in kindergarten?
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02/18/2008 01:02:35 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Limbri:
Originally posted by Louis:
I enjoy this site and appreciate the hard work put into it, and I understand the nature of volunteerism, but sometimes I feel treated as though I'm in kindergarten. |
Do you ever feel like you act as though you are in kindergarten? |
Frequently. |
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02/18/2008 01:05:39 PM · #31 |
My last post, because I've got to go teach a class,
but,
None of the comments violated the ToS.
On what grounds should we hide them?
Because do you really want us to be able to arbitrate what gets hidden and what does not based on our opinions? Or is it better to have an established framework to base those decisions on?
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:07:02. |
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02/18/2008 01:05:43 PM · #32 |
| Holy crap. Louis and I agree on something. This just in, 70% chance of snow in hell.... ;) |
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02/18/2008 01:07:46 PM · #33 |
Why not rate the comments as well and tie them back to some meaningful metric for the commenter?
Sure, there's the "helpful" check box, but it's not really meaningful, nor does having a high number of unhelpful comments carry and consequence. Perhaps a rating of 1-10, with 1 being the depths of asshattery and 10 being deeply insightful and sensitive.
That way, if the rude comment were there it would also be very clear that everyone thinks that the commenter is an ass.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:10:14.
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02/18/2008 01:09:55 PM · #34 |
Why are you involved at all?
What if I delete/hide every comment I've been given - who/how does this hurt?
Originally posted by karmat:
My last post, because I've got to go teach a class,
but,
None of the comments violated the ToS.
On what grounds should we hide them?
Because do you really want us to be able to arbitrate what gets hidden and what does not based on our opinions? Or is it better to have an established framework to base those decisions on? |
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02/18/2008 01:10:21 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by karmat:
My last post, because I've got to go teach a class,
but,
None of the comments violated the ToS.
On what grounds should we hide them?
Because do you really want us to be able to arbitrate what gets hidden and what does not based on our opinions? Or is it better to have an established framework to base those decisions on? |
Can't you guys in your heart find these comments to possibly be, "generally offensive or in bad taste."? It's such a subjective thing that I would think if you wanted you could easily argue for or against. The question is what is the point of arguing against? We're somehow protecting the integrity of the site by letting Leroy's model known she needs to do some situps? |
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02/18/2008 01:10:55 PM · #36 |
I haven't seen the comments, but if "not an attractive belly" is the worst of it, that is not in any way rude. I think it's a very respectful way to say what you don't like about the photo.
"fat gut" is rude, "lard ass" is rude, even "I'd hit that" or "Great ass" is rude. I'd agree 100% that comments of that nature should be deleted.
If you post a photo of anything here, you have to expect comments on the subject as well as the technical aspects. That's what people do here. If a model does not want to hear it, he/she should not allow the photo to be posted.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:12:23.
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02/18/2008 01:11:58 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Why are you involved at all?
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(I've not gone yet. I promise after this post, I will)
Because Leroy reported it, thus inviting us to the party.
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02/18/2008 01:17:48 PM · #38 |
If you post a picture here you are giving the green light on comments from other users. You are free to complain about those comments to the SC but if they find that the comments are within the rules then that is final.
It is then up to you to value your sensitivity against the joy of posting photos.
That is, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the furnace.
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02/18/2008 01:17:58 PM · #39 |
I agree that we should not be given a delete button because the comment may have some learning merit such as "try using a hair light in the future to help bring out the model more".
That is constructive and should be kept.
"Unattractive belly" is not very constructive (certainly not photographically speaking) and should be deleted if the photographer asks. |
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02/18/2008 01:19:22 PM · #40 |
| If it isn't a challenge entry Leroy just delete the photo and reupload it. That hits the reset button in a very crude way... |
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02/18/2008 01:20:25 PM · #41 |
| Can you simply delete the photo and re-upload it? Wouldn't that get rid of the comments? Or maybe it's part of a challenge? Can those be deleted? |
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02/18/2008 01:20:49 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Limbri:
If you post a picture here you are giving the green light on comments from other users. You are free to complain about those comments to the SC but if they find that the comments are within the rules then that is final.
It is then up to you to value your sensitivity against the joy of posting photos.
That is, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the furnace.
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I don't think Leroy has a problem with harsh criticism of his work, it's the criticism of his models he has a problem with. Whether the comment was truely about his model or if it was about the way he shot the model is what is really being debated. Although I haven't gotten the clear impression that the SC would be willing to hide the comment even if it was pointed at the model and had nothing to do with Leroy's work. |
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02/18/2008 01:20:51 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If it isn't a challenge entry Leroy just delete the photo and reupload it. That hits the reset button in a very crude way... |
LOL. You beat me to it. |
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02/18/2008 01:20:59 PM · #44 |
I agree on that, If they do not care for others thoughts, Keep the clothes on or turn off the lights.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If a model does not want to hear it, he/she should not allow the photo to be posted. |
I do think we the owners of the photos and paying members of this site should have more say in the matter, so I agree with Leroy.
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02/18/2008 01:22:40 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Holy crap. Louis and I agree on something. This just in, 70% chance of snow in hell.... ;) |
Oh well, I guess I can quit, having seen everything. :) |
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02/18/2008 01:23:53 PM · #46 |
I guess the thing about the comments is there is no requirement for comments to be aimed at anything photographic. While we all appreciate comments about lightin, composition and focus quite often we will get comments that aren't necessarily helpful whether they be positive, negative or otherwise. I myself have left comments such as "This reminds me of _blank_ location". Not really useful to the photographer however not negative either. "Your model looks like an extra from the Pirates of the Caribbean" not exactly polite, not useful but not rude either.
We do have the option to select "this comment was helpful" to provide quick feedback to the comment. However, I've found that in a lot of cases users don't check it off even if I have taken 5-10 minutes to write a detailed comment that is entirely in response to the photograph. Perhaps if we had a broader range of options for our response such as a "vote". (i.e. On a scale of 1-10 how helpful was this comment). That way the commenter could get feedback on their comment, and the person receiving the comment could demonstrate their feelings in a quick objective manner.
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02/18/2008 01:27:48 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
I don't think Leroy has a problem with harsh criticism of his work, it's the criticism of his models he has a problem with. Whether the comment was truely about his model or if it was about the way he shot the model is what is really being debated. Although I haven't gotten the clear impression that the SC would be willing to hide the comment even if it was pointed at the model and had nothing to do with Leroy's work. |
There is a set of rules (that all should read) in play here. It is up to the SCs to judge in matters of different opinions. If you don't care for that system then the best thing to do is to remove yourself from having to follow the rules. That you can do by not posting photos.
I for one am WAY to sensitive to want comments on my photos. I therefor do not post them. I read threads, look at thousands of photos, vote in challenges and generally like and have fun with this site. I just know I don't want to listen to other people comment on my hobby so I don't put my pictures up for scrutiny. Simple advice for those that are as sensitive as I am.
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02/18/2008 01:28:00 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by karmat:
My last post, because I've got to go teach a class,
but,
None of the comments violated the ToS.
On what grounds should we hide them?
Because do you really want us to be able to arbitrate what gets hidden and what does not based on our opinions? Or is it better to have an established framework to base those decisions on? |
Originally posted by DPC ToS:
4.1 Generally, you must use the DPChallenge.com Service in a manner that demonstrates good taste and respect for the rights of DPChallenge.com and third parties |
As for violating the ToS, it's anything but clear. I'd say those comments are insensitive, in poor taste and, while not blatantly rude, certainly show a significant lack of respect for a third party (the model). If it was clear the comments did not cross the line, this thread would not exist.
The ToS are loosely written enough that to hide such a comment or not is absolutely subject to the SC's opinion. There is a framework created by the ToS, but it's flexible, not rigid. To the SC's credit, they usually do a good job of drawing the line. However, my opinion is that they've drawn the line on the wrong side.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:41:45.
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02/18/2008 01:28:26 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
We do have the option to select "this comment was helpful" to provide quick feedback to the comment. However, I've found that in a lot of cases users don't check it off even if I have taken 5-10 minutes to write a detailed comment that is entirely in response to the photograph. Perhaps if we had a broader range of options for our response such as a "vote". (i.e. On a scale of 1-10 how helpful was this comment). That way the commenter could get feedback on their comment, and the person receiving the comment could demonstrate their feelings in a quick objective manner. |
I think it's been generally established that the "This comment was helpful" checkbox is largely useless. As you've seen, some users don't check it at all, others check every comment as useful no matter what it says. It may help to give broader options, but at the end of the day, giving the people who actually own the photos control over the comments, and assuming good faith in its practice, is the way to resolve every commenting issue. |
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02/18/2008 01:28:29 PM · #50 |
| another way of approaching this would be to let the commenter re-write their comment before it gets deleted. Sometimes people are in a hurry when they are commenting because they would like to comment on many photos and because of that their comments may not come across as intended. |
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